Gecko_Den
New member
raybueno said:
Fair enough....
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MARK MILLER IS A THIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter raybueno
- Start date
Fair enough....
raybueno
New member
Sam,
I would also tell you from your statement that you do not know me at all. There is nothing I would not do to help a friend. I considered Mark a friend. I/we were going to take care of him for his efforts but he did not give us the opportunity/
As far as grred goes you couldn't be further from the truth. I/we would be just as upset over normal boas, this is about the principle.
As far as me calling them names I agree with you it is childish. I have no excuse for that. So to thsoe people I apologize. I could only ask that you put yorself in my shoes for a second.
I would also tell you from your statement that you do not know me at all. There is nothing I would not do to help a friend. I considered Mark a friend. I/we were going to take care of him for his efforts but he did not give us the opportunity/
As far as grred goes you couldn't be further from the truth. I/we would be just as upset over normal boas, this is about the principle.
As far as me calling them names I agree with you it is childish. I have no excuse for that. So to thsoe people I apologize. I could only ask that you put yorself in my shoes for a second.
johnmartino
Member
For all you people still questioning Mark, ask him for a pic of MY dead Blood boa male I gave him $6500 for. It died in his posession after he asked for it to be sent back and i dont even know if it died??? I dont know who Ray is referring to, but every snake Mark promised me as compensation wound up at a large breeder/cage builders house. I am not saying he is a bad guy, but he did know about my situation with Mark when he acquired all those animals. I think that was pretty crappy on his part. He didnt owe me anything, but he certainly didnt help the situation at all.
KCRD.com
Jason Hormann
I take it those of you who have decided that I have some defective brain cells missed the part of my post that said that I think Mark was in the wrong for not talking to owners about him breeding their two snakes together before he actually did it. Oh and the part where I said that I didn't think there is a clear and concise right and wrong here. The only thing I think that would convict him in a court of law is that he made the choice to breed the snakes before consulting the owner of the animals.
A few years ago in a town not to far from Kansas City, a horse breeder had a couple of horses he was boarding for a client, one male and one female. He was to breed the clients' mare with one of his stallions and the baby was to be co-owned by the two adult horse owners. To make a long story short the clients' horses got together due to a break in the fence that they were be separated by and the mare was bred to the clients stallion. The client was unwilling to award the caregiver half of ownership of the colt, so a lawsuit was filed and the court awarded 50% of the sale of the colt to the caregiver since he was responsible for caring and maintaining the mare during the pregnancy. The caregiver didn't intend for the breeding to take place, but never the less it did and they did care for the mare during the pregnancy, and the colt after delivery. This was the decision in this case, as mentioned before I think the only thing that would make this not the case here was that Mark willingly bred them with out the consultation of the owners of the boas. But that would be for a judge to decide, what we think and what the court thinks isn't always the same.
Now to those who have opinions of my braincells, I'm not siding with anyone here because believe it or not this is not a court of law, just a forum built to warn others of bad dealings with breeders in this hobby we all love. Because it is not a court I have reason to believe that sometimes not all of the facts are stated to make one's case seem more credible. I am not saying that is the case here, but in happens in person why wouldn't it happen on here?
A few years ago in a town not to far from Kansas City, a horse breeder had a couple of horses he was boarding for a client, one male and one female. He was to breed the clients' mare with one of his stallions and the baby was to be co-owned by the two adult horse owners. To make a long story short the clients' horses got together due to a break in the fence that they were be separated by and the mare was bred to the clients stallion. The client was unwilling to award the caregiver half of ownership of the colt, so a lawsuit was filed and the court awarded 50% of the sale of the colt to the caregiver since he was responsible for caring and maintaining the mare during the pregnancy. The caregiver didn't intend for the breeding to take place, but never the less it did and they did care for the mare during the pregnancy, and the colt after delivery. This was the decision in this case, as mentioned before I think the only thing that would make this not the case here was that Mark willingly bred them with out the consultation of the owners of the boas. But that would be for a judge to decide, what we think and what the court thinks isn't always the same.
Now to those who have opinions of my braincells, I'm not siding with anyone here because believe it or not this is not a court of law, just a forum built to warn others of bad dealings with breeders in this hobby we all love. Because it is not a court I have reason to believe that sometimes not all of the facts are stated to make one's case seem more credible. I am not saying that is the case here, but in happens in person why wouldn't it happen on here?
raybueno
New member
Mark is still a thief
Jason,
I think you should read the above statement. As to the horse breeding that is completly different. They bred on accident. Mark bred my animals on purpose without my permission. Completly different.
raybueno said:
Jason,
I think you should read the above statement. As to the horse breeding that is completly different. They bred on accident. Mark bred my animals on purpose without my permission. Completly different.
Griz
Driving the short bus....
Jason, the reason why most are probably questioning your reasoning ability is due not to your braincells but your lack of a spine. True friends and people with integrity, will hold their friends accountable for their actions. You seem to want to make up excuses and stories to justify what might have been simply so you don't have to hold Mark's feet to the fire.
I can understand giving the benefit of the doubt to someone after one possible deal gone bad. But, it's been documented time and time again that Mark is a crook yet you still don't want to hold him accountable. Simply stating that he "should have done this" or he "should not have done that" is not the same as telling him he's being an ass and to help get him straightened out. I have a sneaky suspicion that you know more of the background information pertaining to some of these deals then what you're letting on. It's a gut intuition and probably has as much to do with you desire to defend vs your desire to help. I'm probably not the only one in that boat that feels this way.
I still find it amusing, if not intriguing, that you're so willing to speak up for Mark when he won't do the same. At some point Jason, you have to decide if your "friendship" is really worth the loss in integrity.
Griz
I can understand giving the benefit of the doubt to someone after one possible deal gone bad. But, it's been documented time and time again that Mark is a crook yet you still don't want to hold him accountable. Simply stating that he "should have done this" or he "should not have done that" is not the same as telling him he's being an ass and to help get him straightened out. I have a sneaky suspicion that you know more of the background information pertaining to some of these deals then what you're letting on. It's a gut intuition and probably has as much to do with you desire to defend vs your desire to help. I'm probably not the only one in that boat that feels this way.
I still find it amusing, if not intriguing, that you're so willing to speak up for Mark when he won't do the same. At some point Jason, you have to decide if your "friendship" is really worth the loss in integrity.
Griz
LauraB
CLOSED ACCOUNT
Griz .... Jason
Well said, Bob. I agree completely.
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Jason, as pointed out the horse breeding suit is totally irrelevent, due to that breeding being an accident. Both horses were also boarded full-time at that stable. Mark was only temporarily "boarding" for the explicit purpose of breeding two specific animals named in the contract. They did not "accidently" get together. He PUT them together, in total disregard to the contract HE signed and in total disregard to the wishes of the owner of the female.
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"since he has had ownership since they were born and if he sells them before any judge makes a decision then they by law are his animals. Possession is how many tenths of the law?"
Wrong. That old saying "possession is 9/10ths of the law" is just that .. an old adage. It is not a rule of law since since legal ownership requires both the right to possess as well as actual or constructive possession.
And Ray did exactly what this forum is intended for, just as you stated, "to warn others of bad dealings with breeders.."
Well said, Bob. I agree completely.
Again, agreed. Remember, Jason and Mark talked about this thread and this situation at the show last Saturday.
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Jason, as pointed out the horse breeding suit is totally irrelevent, due to that breeding being an accident. Both horses were also boarded full-time at that stable. Mark was only temporarily "boarding" for the explicit purpose of breeding two specific animals named in the contract. They did not "accidently" get together. He PUT them together, in total disregard to the contract HE signed and in total disregard to the wishes of the owner of the female.
And therefore is not entitled to keep any of the offspring of that breeding. He may be entitled to monetary compensation for feeding the female during pregnancy (as Ray had already advised him), but even then he may have forfeited that entitlement since he voluntarily took on that responsibility in anticipation of a bigger pay-back. Unethical and greedy.
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Yes, you are correct. This is not a court of law. However, you came here giving your own assumption of the law & clearly siding with Mark, saying:
"since he has had ownership since they were born and if he sells them before any judge makes a decision then they by law are his animals. Possession is how many tenths of the law?"
Wrong. That old saying "possession is 9/10ths of the law" is just that .. an old adage. It is not a rule of law since since legal ownership requires both the right to possess as well as actual or constructive possession.
And Ray did exactly what this forum is intended for, just as you stated, "to warn others of bad dealings with breeders.."
DaveyFig
New member
Jason, You said in an earlier post that there are two sides to a story. You also said you have spoken to Mark about the issue at hand. Was his side of the story so compelling that you felt you must post here to defend him? If he convinced you that what he did was right, why would he not post his side here? Obviously he has enough evidence to convince you that he is in the right. All he did wrong was not ask permission right? I don't believe you have defective brain cells. I think anyone who posts here has enough to rub together to form an opion on stuff. If you can be swayed, couldn't the rest of us? All he has to do is come here and share the side he shared with you. Even if he didn't convince anyone that he was right, at least some would start to think he might have a spine.
Mark is a big boy. He can handle himself here. So...Why hasn't he?
Mark is a big boy. He can handle himself here. So...Why hasn't he?
DaveyFig
New member
opinion*
DaveyFig
New member
Jason, I'm Sorry. I am not asking you those questions expecting you to answer for Mark. That isn't my intent at all. You can't know the answers unless MArk has told you the answer.
What I would like thoough is for you to ask yourself for those answers, and if the answer you have for yourself is "I don't know", ask yourself one more..."Why am I fighting his battle without knowing why he isn't willing to do so?"
What I would like thoough is for you to ask yourself for those answers, and if the answer you have for yourself is "I don't know", ask yourself one more..."Why am I fighting his battle without knowing why he isn't willing to do so?"
KCRD.com
Jason Hormann
You're right.....
In all actuality the only reason I posted on this thread at all is because someone mentioned earlier that they should contact me since I know Mark, and do shows with him.
Here is my knowledge of Mark Miller and this situation.
As I was leaving the show Saturday afternoon after the show was closed one of the vendors asked Mark in passing what the thread had to do with him, Mark answered, I got some boas in a breeding loan, bred them, and sent the guy his snakes, and now he's being a greedy ass and wants more of the ones I kept. This is all that I knew of this whole story before this I read and posted the other day.
My dealings in the past have been clear and concise with Mark. Never with any I owe yous, so I have never had any bad dealings with him, in fact they have all gone great.
Mark is a friend in the business, but not someone I hang out with all the time, like Jason Cruse and I would be considered. I probably shouldn't have tried to play devil's advocate here in this situation, I was honestly still a little raw from the last thread I was involved with here concerning a 5 year old deal gone wrong that somehow was turned on me. If you want to know more, just read the thread.
The bottom line here is, my wanting to play devil's advocate really didn't apply here, but I have never said that Mark was in the right. As far as what he is owed, I guess I'm a little more generous than some and would have given him more than a few dollars for "room and board" instead of loosing a breeding season with the snakes. On the same token, as I have said in the past, I would have been upset if I was never made aware of the breeding until after the fact especially when I had hopes and plans of getting something different out of that female that season.
I know nothing more of this or any other Mark Miller deal than what was just posted. As far as me holding him accountable; it is hard to do so when I don't really know what the original deal was before now. Mark lives an hour from me, so I don't see him but maybe once a month at shows or if get animals from him for my store. It's tough to hold an acquaintance accountable, if we had a different relationship, like Cruse and I do then that would be a different story.
In all actuality the only reason I posted on this thread at all is because someone mentioned earlier that they should contact me since I know Mark, and do shows with him.
Here is my knowledge of Mark Miller and this situation.
As I was leaving the show Saturday afternoon after the show was closed one of the vendors asked Mark in passing what the thread had to do with him, Mark answered, I got some boas in a breeding loan, bred them, and sent the guy his snakes, and now he's being a greedy ass and wants more of the ones I kept. This is all that I knew of this whole story before this I read and posted the other day.
My dealings in the past have been clear and concise with Mark. Never with any I owe yous, so I have never had any bad dealings with him, in fact they have all gone great.
Mark is a friend in the business, but not someone I hang out with all the time, like Jason Cruse and I would be considered. I probably shouldn't have tried to play devil's advocate here in this situation, I was honestly still a little raw from the last thread I was involved with here concerning a 5 year old deal gone wrong that somehow was turned on me. If you want to know more, just read the thread.
The bottom line here is, my wanting to play devil's advocate really didn't apply here, but I have never said that Mark was in the right. As far as what he is owed, I guess I'm a little more generous than some and would have given him more than a few dollars for "room and board" instead of loosing a breeding season with the snakes. On the same token, as I have said in the past, I would have been upset if I was never made aware of the breeding until after the fact especially when I had hopes and plans of getting something different out of that female that season.
I know nothing more of this or any other Mark Miller deal than what was just posted. As far as me holding him accountable; it is hard to do so when I don't really know what the original deal was before now. Mark lives an hour from me, so I don't see him but maybe once a month at shows or if get animals from him for my store. It's tough to hold an acquaintance accountable, if we had a different relationship, like Cruse and I do then that would be a different story.
FunkyRes
Greenwich mockingbird
Corey Woods said:
Here's the thing do - had he talked to them and they agreed to it, that would be fine.
When he took the breeding loan he was taking a risk that some of his efforts might not result in baby snakes. When they loaned the animals they took the same risk - that they may not get production they could have gotten.
He should have never paired the snakes without their explicit permission, he gets nothing for his effort since they were not his snakes to pair up.
Any compensation for his work and effort needs to be specified in the contract, otherwise he is not entitled to it.
My first breeding loan - there was no contract and everything went as planned - but if I ever do another one, after hearing all the horror stories, I think there will be one.
IMHO all the baby boas produced from that pairing, or their fair market value, need to be given over to Ray Bueno.
DaveyFig
New member
I think my biggest problem with the whole thing is that Mark tried 2 of his own males with the snow before even trying the OPs in the first place. When he tried his motley het albino, nothing happened. He then took a totally different aproach and put a triple het (I assume het for moonglow) of his own tp the snow, to make sure that if it wasn't his motley that knocked her up, it WOULD be one of his snakes. Neither of his males got the job done. NEITHER of his males (including one that shouldn't have been near the female anyway) got the job done. It was then that he used the OPs Motley.
I have a feeling that if it had been the triple het that fathered the litter this would be an even BIGGER issue. Then Mark would want 50%, no less, for a breeding that resulted in babies that the OP had no desire to produce.
I have a feeling that if it had been the triple het that fathered the litter this would be an even BIGGER issue. Then Mark would want 50%, no less, for a breeding that resulted in babies that the OP had no desire to produce.
raybueno
New member
KCRD.com said:
I am the greedy ass???????? This statement astounds me. He did not have those animals on loan to breed them together. That was NEVER the plan. Mark did that by himself without my permission.
Anyway here are the only pictures I ever received from Mark. These are cell phone pictures so I apologize for the quality. Mark took more but never sent them to me.
Attachments
rockyballboa
New member
Ray i am wondering what would you have given Mark if you received the entire litter?
These pics you received is that the entire litter? At least what Mark claimed was the entire litter i mean?
Even though Mark screwed the deal and broke the terms of the contract without your permission & you still felt like giving Mark something in return does say a lot to me about your good character man. I just wish Mark could have waited to see what he would have received from you before jumping the gun.
Todd Peddle.
These pics you received is that the entire litter? At least what Mark claimed was the entire litter i mean?
Even though Mark screwed the deal and broke the terms of the contract without your permission & you still felt like giving Mark something in return does say a lot to me about your good character man. I just wish Mark could have waited to see what he would have received from you before jumping the gun.
Todd Peddle.
raybueno
New member
I do too. I wish we would have been given that choice.
raybueno
New member
I dont know what we would have given him. Its VERY hard to say now. We would have taken care of him though. We would not have given him what he kept though I know that much.
As far as I know that is the entire litter.
As far as I know that is the entire litter.
Dustin Bueno
New member
My brother and I got a laugh this morning with this email. I think a few of us have had the displeasure of dealing with this guy. I will let his email speak for itself.
From:"Matt Tipton" <[email protected]>
[Add to Address Book]
To:<[email protected]>
Subject:Cryyyyyyyyyyy Babyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Date:Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:19:26 AM
[View Source]
Why don’t you just cry me a damn river?
You send snakes to Mark Miller for him to take time, money; effort and hassle of breeding to produce nice babies and you grip and complain about it? Put it this way, why couldn’t you have bred your own snakes? IMO you got you end of the deal, if it wasn’t for Mark you wouldn’t be playing with any newborn motleys. Then you go and say you file criminal charges, think again loser…. you didn’t have a single dollar in those babies Mark kept… you need to for real quit acting like a 5 year old child of some shitty motley boas. I say you were fortunate enough to get your breeders back and 2.3 animals…. You lucked out just fine and don’t even know it. What did you plan on giving Mark for his time and energy spent on your snakes? What the hell is the difference if he wanted to keep a snake with a kink, he produced the damn animals and you damn sure didn’t. You irritate me because you remind me of a little naive wimpy child. Get a life and if you’re tired of getting screwed by white trash then leave your so called hobby behind then because there is nothing but white trash involved in it.
Lesson learned; don’t do deals with breeders who ALREADY have a horrible reputation. Be glad you got any of your snakes back… put this ordeal behind you and move on.
Everyone is tough behind their computer. This guy jusst seems to take the cake.
From:"Matt Tipton" <[email protected]>
[Add to Address Book]
To:<[email protected]>
Subject:Cryyyyyyyyyyy Babyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Date:Sunday, July 20, 2008 1:19:26 AM
[View Source]
Why don’t you just cry me a damn river?
You send snakes to Mark Miller for him to take time, money; effort and hassle of breeding to produce nice babies and you grip and complain about it? Put it this way, why couldn’t you have bred your own snakes? IMO you got you end of the deal, if it wasn’t for Mark you wouldn’t be playing with any newborn motleys. Then you go and say you file criminal charges, think again loser…. you didn’t have a single dollar in those babies Mark kept… you need to for real quit acting like a 5 year old child of some shitty motley boas. I say you were fortunate enough to get your breeders back and 2.3 animals…. You lucked out just fine and don’t even know it. What did you plan on giving Mark for his time and energy spent on your snakes? What the hell is the difference if he wanted to keep a snake with a kink, he produced the damn animals and you damn sure didn’t. You irritate me because you remind me of a little naive wimpy child. Get a life and if you’re tired of getting screwed by white trash then leave your so called hobby behind then because there is nothing but white trash involved in it.
Lesson learned; don’t do deals with breeders who ALREADY have a horrible reputation. Be glad you got any of your snakes back… put this ordeal behind you and move on.
Everyone is tough behind their computer. This guy jusst seems to take the cake.
Dustin Bueno
New member
The last two statements our mine. Just to clarify.
Dustin / Ray,
Don't pay any attention to Matt Tipton. I can't believe there isn't already a thread on here about him. I've been meaning to start one, but haven't had the time. He has some serious mental disorders and I don't believe there is a single breeder out there that knows of him and will still do business with him. He just likes to pretend he can afford these high end animals. He did describe himself in that email quite well though
Matt Crabe
Don't pay any attention to Matt Tipton. I can't believe there isn't already a thread on here about him. I've been meaning to start one, but haven't had the time. He has some serious mental disorders and I don't believe there is a single breeder out there that knows of him and will still do business with him. He just likes to pretend he can afford these high end animals. He did describe himself in that email quite well though
Matt Crabe