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Joe,


You had already red flags up, but you chose to give this person a third chance. Why? Because I know you from our past dealings, and you honestly thought that he should be given another chance. You chose to take the risk and you were not prejudging him because of his past dealings with you.

Here is where my approach is different and where I agree with Neil. The animal is not sold until it is paid for (like the "first come first serve" statement). When someone tells me they definitely want to buy a snake my reply is that the snake will be sent upon receiving the money order. If they tell me the payment was sent it's on hold. Did I have buyers saying they had sent payment and payment never showed? Of course!

If in the meantime someone e-mails and asks if the snake is sold, then the standard answer is: "It apparently is. I will contact you one way or the other and let you know if the payment came through".

Yes I had probably lost some sales doing it this way. But I feel I am being fair to both parties. If the second buyer is honestly interested in buying your snake he will wait for a couple of days. If not he was probably not that interested any ways.

Here is one example of how I behave as a buyer. Rob had a ball python for sale (by the way Rob she ate today&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>. I asked him to hold it for me until Friday (a couple of weeks ago) when I would send payment. Friday came and due to work related conflicts I could not sent the payment. On Monday I was tied-up all day at work (University) and had only "X" amount of cash on me which was not enough to cover the snake plus the shipment. But I had committed to him so I expressed mailed overnight (from the campus mail) what I had on me and sent him a personal check for the difference. The only thing I told him is that he could throw me into the BOI bonfire if that check ever bounced on him! Rob accepted my personal check and sent the snake out as agreed. Communication!!!

This example is just to point out that I do believe in committment and the word you give. But not everyone shares the same values. It also tells you that things can sometimes go unexpectedly wrong, but if there needs to be communication between both parties.

In your dealings you will find people that do not share your same values, morals, and ethics, but they might still be among your customers or suppliers.

Regards,
 
I do not think Neil should have even posted this.   Backing out of one deal is not "worthy" of being on this board.   If he made a habit out of this, and 50 people posted that he had done it to them, it may be different, or if the same person had backed out of several deals with Neil, then yes, it is a problem.   I think Neil should take part of the blame here, INSIST on a non refundable deposit, which in the case of someone backing out, pays you for your time, and leave it up for sale, take back up offers etc.   Just my opinion, think Neil just might be peeved and may cool off:)

Dave Reid
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (alvaro @ Oct. 19 2002,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here is where my approach is different and where I agree with Neil. The animal is not sold until it is paid for (like the "first come first serve" statement). When someone tells me they definitely want to buy a snake my reply is that the snake will be sent upon receiving the money order. If they tell me the payment was sent it's on hold. Did I have buyers saying they had sent payment and payment never showed? Of course!

If in the meantime someone e-mails and asks if the snake is sold, then the standard answer is: "It apparently is. I will contact you one way or the other and let you know if the payment came through".

Yes I had probably lost some sales doing it this way. But I feel I am being fair to both parties. If the second buyer is honestly interested in buying your snake he will wait for a couple of days. If not he was probably not that interested any ways.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I think that is a very good method (the quote).  I do something very similar and it has worked well for me.  Any subsequent inquiries while a deal is in the works I say "I'll email you if the deal falls through".   If the deal falls through, they usually take it (sometimes it seems that it makes them want the  animal more&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>.  If not, someone else will.

I should also clarify that my previous point on selling an older animal for more $ tends to work well for me because I work with mostly lizards (I keep snakes too!!! lol&#33<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>.  I understand that a 1 month old snake vs a 3 month old snake usually doesnt have a price difference, so there is more of a loss.

Dana
 
Well, there seems two sides that feel very strongly on this subject. Some feel its 100% fine to give your word on a deal and back out. Some don't.

One thing that Ive seen brought up consistantly is the phrase " If I have family situation, didnt get paid, etc." then screw it Ill back out and post me if you will. I think this is NOT what Neil, webslave, my self and others are saying. Hey, EVERYONE can understand that things pop up that are beyond our control. I know, I as well as others, can understand this and hold nothing against the customer. Its the customers that agree to terms of the sale and back out for no good reason or never reply at all. I like everyone's suggestions on the subject of sales, including Daniels. Im probably going adopt some of these ideas myself.

But, Im open to suggestions on what to do on a trade offers that back out after agreeing to the deal and even set up shipping. Would it be simply O.K. of me to of took the sale instead of honoring my word in the trade ? If the answers no, then why is it O.K. for the customer to back out on me then. If you feel you "word" is just a saying and shouldnt be taken seriously, then thats you.

Joe Dembinski
 
Wow.... talk about a demoralizing thread.... I am truly amazed that some of you actually think like that? The only thing in this world that you can truly call your own, is your reputation, your morals, your ethics and your integrity.... some of you just basically told me (out of your own mouths) that you can't be trusted, no matter what you might tell me?
How many threads have you guys read on here where a buyer has a firm deal with a seller, only to be told later that the seller sold the animal to someone else because they offered him more money?? Do you think that buyer will EVER do business with that particular seller again?? I don't think so!
You're either true to your word, or you're not.... sorry, but, in my book, it's a black and white issue! Concerning the guy I wrote this thread about.... if he called me tomorrow and said that he definitely wants one of my animals and a MO is on it's way.... if, as soon as I hung up the phone, somebody walked into the store and said I'll take it, here's your money.... it's SOLD! All you'll get is an email stating that I wasn't sure if you could be trusted and might possibly back out again, so I had a chance to sell it, and I did! Of course, you'll get your MO back, but, you'll lose out on the animal!
Is that really the way you want to be seen in the eyes of your peers??
Without your integrity, you've got nothing! I don't care how much money you have, or what kind of problems you run into.... if you give me your WORD.... you either live up to it, or don't expect to be doing business with me again! I don't need people in my life like that.... there are just too many truly honest people out there that will do what they say they're going to do, to be fooling around with maybe's....
If you think there might be a problem.... say that in the beginning and everybody will be on the same wavelength, then, it's up to the seller what he wants to do.... but, don't give someone your WORD unless you are going to keep it??
Your husband or wife tells you.... honey, I give you my WORD that I would NEVER cheat on you! Then.... but he/she was so gorgeous, I just had to! You'd be out on your butt in two seconds flat! Would you EVER trust him/her again?? Not even close! It's all or nothing, when it comes to your WORD OF HONOR!
....Neil
 
Hey Neil,
I'm not saying MY word is no good, lol, I just dont trust anyone else's word whom I dont know or havent worked with in the past.
I'd trust your word!
Also, it's not that there is nothing wrong with people telling you "it's sold, take it off the list" and then taking their business elsewhere--it stinks, but it happens--that is retail for you.  So policies are there to, wait I think I can quote Neil, "protect us both"!  LOL!  You should have stuck to your word!  LOL! (just giving you a hard time).
There are good points to both sides here I think.
Dana
 
I've heard several people say "it's my right to back out of a deal". I don't think anyone has said it's illegal not to keep your word. Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral. There may be exceptions such as family problems or emergencies but I don't think finding a cheaper one is acceptable. Buyers do have a right to change their mind but they could and should lose the trust of the seller unless they have a legitimate reason. After a buyer backs out on me once I would not hold an animal for them based on their word. Neil, a man's word means less as time goes by. Sad, but true. Things have changed since you grew up back in the 19th century. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Dana.... as far as you're concerned.... you've NEVER lied to me, and I have no reason to believe that you ever would, so let's put that subject to rest, OK?
You are absolutely correct, though, when you say it was my own fault I got burned.... I went against my own time-tested policy, and it kicked me in the butt.... my only reason for doing that was our phone conversation.... I told him every one of my conditions, and he swore to me that he was serious and he'd be in on Saturday, rain or shine! That's the ONLY reason I didn't ask him for a non-refundable deposit to make sure he was sincere.... again.... my fault! I will always give somebody the benefit of the doubt for the first time.... after that, it goes by first impressions.... if YOU, for instance, said to me.... Neil, I really want that snake, but, I won't be able to pay you for a week.... for YOU, you would have that snake IN YOUR HANDS TOMORROW, with a note that stated, Pay me when you get it! TRUST goes a long way in my book! If I TRUST you.... there is absolutely nothing that I wouldn't do for you! I've done that with quite a few people already! And, I will probably do it again in the future.... but, only with people I can trust???
....Neil
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But, Im open to suggestions on what to do on a trade offers that back out after agreeing to the deal and even set up shipping. Would it be simply O.K. of me to of took the sale instead of honoring my word in the trade ? If the answers no, then why is it O.K. for the customer to back out on me then. If you feel you "word" is just a saying and shouldnt be taken seriously, then thats you.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

No it would not be OK to back off. Is it OK for the buyer to back off? No it is not OK. Now if each of us is going to post every customer that has backed-off from "apparently" done deals we would certainly need to open a second BOI. Last week alone I had two with which we were in absolute agreement and they dissapeared on me. Should I post their names?

Now, if you communicate this dilemma to the person you were going to do the trade with and you both agree to cancel the committment, IMHO that would be OK. Do you see my point?
From what some have said here it would have just taken a phone call and a plausible explanation of why he was backing off and all would have been well. Apparently we all agreed on that one. Now, where do you draw the line of what is a good reason and what is not. Was Ritchie's example a good one (not being able to pay the rent)?

Regards,
 
Ritchies "excuse" would have been acceptable to me.... but.... on the other hand.... if you can't afford to pay rent, or, you are working on such a very tight budget.... YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BUYING AN ANIMAL, OR EVEN THINKING ABOUT BUYING ONE!
Animals should be bought with your "extra" money, your "mad" money! (unless you do this for a living).... money you DON'T need for other things!
My intention in writing this thread, was to give you HONEST people a heads-up about a "player".... but, I now come to find out that a lot of you don't think he did anything wrong??? That just floors me! I'm sorry if this hit too close to home! But, it certainly opened MY eyes.... (unfortunately)....
....Neil
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I also disagree with a statement that said we cant pick our customers</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>I said it.
And I see your point.....
because I just realized.....
I have refused a couple sales before...
Good point.
 
This is a very puzzling thread.

If you think deeply about it long enough, then you will eventually have to start wondering what many of you people are doing coming to the BOI in the first place.

What are you looking for?  How can you be looking for what I thought people would be interested in finding out when I set this all up?

If you are interested in doing business with a person or business, what do you want to know about him/her?  More than likely it is:  Are they trustworthy?  Do they live up to their committment?  Do they send you what they said they will?  Can I TRUST them to do business with them?

And yet some people in this thread are inferring that they want the seller to be a better person than they are.  Do as I say, but not as I do.

I felt I had set up the BOI to try to make our industry better for all of us.  And after two years, THIS thread makes me think maybe it has been a waste of time.  If the posts in this thread are a good sampling of the people taking part in this industry as a whole, then perhaps what I want is unobtainable and really not worth fighting for.  You can't have TRUST if you cannot be trusted yourself.

To all of you out there living in glass houses, maybe you should stop throwing stones.

Because you do not have the right to ask of someone else something that you cannot or will not give of yourself.  If we are going to change this industry for the better, maybe YOU should look inside yourself and see if you can take that step to help out all of the rest of us.

If the rule of thumb is to trust no one, give no one the benefit of the doubt, and that is the way everyone should run their business and how they should engage in their purchases, then there really is no need for the BOI, then is there?

Think about what you all are saying here.
 
this particular scenerio should never have been brought into this forum. The crime of changing his mind regardless of his original intentions is his perogative. Neil may be better off in advising potential customers that until the item in question is physically sold, its still for sale. This way Neil will not be dissapointed if the sale does not follow through, and no time was waisted because someone found something cheaper, or better or changed their mind, etc.
 
He should have given the reason for not purchasing the animal out of professional courtesy.  Perhaps he could have worked out a deal with you.

IMO  he should have never asked you to withdraw the ad without an instant transfer deposit.  You agreed to do so without a deposit.  Your bad call.  Learn from it and don't remove an ad until money is put down.  I require a small non-refundable deposit to remove an animal from the market.  You know many people never send money.  Protecting yourself is not unprofessional.  If they are definitely going to purchase the animal then a deposit is not a problem for them.  

I wouldn't label this person a "deadbeat bidder".  They are out there, but they can't bite you if they have to show reasonable commitment.

Sincerely,

James and Vickie Bryan
 
Jerry.... it's unfortunate that you STILL don't understand my reasoning for posting this thread....
I couldn't care less that the sale didn't go through, the Dumerils will sell to somebody eventually.... I, like everyone else, have had my fair share of...."I'll PayPal you tonight", and it never shows.... I NEVER expect the PayPal to show up! I EXPECT just the opposite.... if it DOES show up.... I'm usually surprised, and gratified at the same time....
This was different.... but, it's obvious that I am in the VAST MINORITY here.... so, why bother trying to explain it again??
The Webslave said it ALL! ....Neil
 
Daniel, first off if you read my post, it answers your last line. I stated that certain things are beyond our control and most people (including myself) can understand this and hold nothing against the customer. With 4 kids, god knows I had to back out on a few deals, in the past. I wouldnt hold that against anyone. Like so many have said, its the ones that mislead the "buyer", that need to be exposed. Your right, If I posted every person thats backed out on a deal with me over the last 15 years, then Im sure Rich would kick me off because of all the space Id use. But, I dont. MOST had good reasons and I understood. Thats the right thing to do. Most eventually came back at a later time and the transaction went smooth. I think a big part why I still got their business is because of how I handled the first deal.

Ritchie, sorry buddy, I had to point that out.

I can remember when someones word on a deal meant something. I think its a shame that EVERYTHING has to be made a policy. I guess Im still old school and trust people. Ive ALWAYS give the customer the benefit of the doubt. I guess I wont change, but maybe my approach should. Times change, I just hate to change with them.

Joe Dembinski
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ive ALWAYS give the customer the benefit of the doubt. I guess I wont change, but maybe my approach should. Times change, I just hate to change with them. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Joe,

Good for you and I hope you don't. In past threads I have said that I'd rather be burnt repeatedly that start doubting everyone.

Best regards  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
 
This is sooooo sad!!!  TROUBLE IN PARADISE!!!!
This reminds me of a phrase!
 "This is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black."
See what I mean about bandwagons?  One this is okay and the next it is not.  It is simply what is convienant at the time and what another can get from it!!
Joe this is not by any means directed at you.  They know who they are!!
Gilbert Thompson
P.S.  Shake them haters off!
 
NEIL, i understand your thread but you seem to take your sales to personal. It seems to effect every facet of your daily business life. What I dont understand is why you seem to be incapable of "moving on". What value have you now placed on complaining about a customer , who for whatever reason changed his mind? How much of this negativity will reflect on your business. Are you going to complain about this again if it happens with someone else? Do you think that it would have been wiser to contact the person privately and explained your displeasure. It certainly would have been easier for you to have told your customer that you were unhappy with his way of conducting business and he should take his business elsewhere. But instead, you run to the BOI, post his name, have 25 followups and think that this is the final solution. In the end, people who continue to see your name, will eventually associate it with a "problem child" and undoubtably will stay clear of you or your business. That is where the shame lies. Your cutting your own throat with a spoon.
 
The point being discussed on this thread was very similar to what was addressed in the one about "dead beat buyers" in the old BOI. In that thread the convenience or not to make an open list of people that did not follow through with their deals was discussed "ad nauseum". Even Ralph Davis chimed in with his contribution. It is a very long post but how was finally proposed to define a "dead beat buyer" can be read close to the end in the contributions of those that posted after December 20/2001.

Regards
 
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