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Bad Guy Nathan Tow-Arnett TERRIBLE

his behavior is on display
.

Indeed it is.

You seller is concentrating on his avoidance of sending you the refund I believe you deserve, using all sorts of excuses.

Soon he will realize that there is more at stake for him, and that future possible buyers may read this thread and see exactly how he might treat them, and plan their purchases accordingly (purchasing from someone else).
 
... but from a legal point, I think the buyer is SOL. ....

I disagree completely. The buyer entered into a contract with the seller and part of that contract was a very specific shipping method agreed to ahead of time. The seller BREACHED the contract by using an entirely different and far sub-standard shipping method. Had the buyer been made aware BEFORE the contract was agreed upon that this would be the only option for shipping, he could have (and very likely would have) made the choice to NOT buy the animal in the first place.

By his actions, the seller is forcing the buyer to accept a risk he would not have accepted in the first place.

I do think that very specific breach of contract would stand up in a small claims court.
 
From post #1:

11-16-2011, 09:32 AM Buyer:
"Weird but fine. Do you have a tag number for USPS?"

The seller stated it was fine with him to use USPS.

Not precisely. I've acknowledged his strange story. This was the first smell of fish; this was after the package had been dropped off and there was no chance of recall. In hindsight, I should have written a strongly worded disagreement; he did get chewed out on the phone the next day.
 
Not precisely. I've acknowledged his strange story. This was the first smell of fish; this was after the package had been dropped off and there was no chance of recall. In hindsight, I should have written a strongly worded disagreement; he did get chewed out on the phone the next day.

I agree with the bolded part. If you really wanted it shipped Fedex, and USPS was indeed unacceptable from the beginning, then would have been the time to tell him the jig is up. Also, you could have told him (or left a message, as the case may have been) to call USPS and return it at once, or something like that. In other words, there was a chance to recall it all the way up to when you signed for it.
Now it seems you are twisting your own words. Do you see how your case may be weakened?
 
I agree with the bolded part. If you really wanted it shipped Fedex, and USPS was indeed unacceptable from the beginning, then would have been the time to tell him the jig is up. Also, you could have told him (or left a message, as the case may have been) to call USPS and return it at once, or something like that. In other words, there was a chance to recall it all the way up to when you signed for it.
Now it seems you are twisting your own words. Do you see how your case may be weakened?

No, my words are not twisted and my case is as it is. When you choose to insert words and phrases then the meaning becomes obscured.

I have no idea what the capabilites are within USPS to recall a package and that's not the first thing in my mind, either. He was essentially told to do that when he did finally contact me the day after shipment; whether he made any attempt or not, I don't know. Unfortunately there is no transcript of the two phone calls but the totality of all other communication is out here.

At the onset, I'm looking for information to complete the transaction with the lizard arriving safely. I had minimal information and the only contact is through Fauna. I'm not immediately looking for someone playing lies and deception to me although this was the first sign of it. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a police officer; I take people at face-value that they're being honest. With no tracking number and no contact after several requests into that next day, suffice it to say, that's when my suspicions rise.

FedEx was agreed on. It's that easy.
 
So ... when you stated 'weird but fine', it was weird, but not fine with you? Or, was it it not weird and not fine? I also don't see where I inserted words or phrases that obcured the meaning. Can you inlighten me by bolding that part of which you're quoting?

I do agree with you regarding NTA being slightly careless in that he probably should have asked you if USPS was ok before going that route, and I think you are owed some compensation for the way he dropped the ball with communication and such, but there are other mitigating factors one should consider before just saying, "the lizard died, he owes a full refund". If I'm wrong, then the best way to prove it would be to get a full refund by forcing him to give it to you by legal means, of course. Otherwise, you are at his mercy in getting your money back. To be blunt, if you had come off this way toward me and I was in his position, I would have ignored you completely unless I was subpoenaed to show up in court. 'Course, I would have answered your phone calls and such, and probably have not pissed you off so that you would feel the need to be that way after she arrived.
In all actuality, I think the animal probably had problems before it was shipped. Six months is usually a good quarantine period, but not LTC material by any stretch of the imagination. I have a sneaking suspicion the animal may have been in less than spectacular health before being shipped, and even if it did have a heatpack, it's chances of celebrating Christmas this year were between slim and none. This would explain why he was willing to basically cut his asking price in half, and after it was shipped, he pretty much ignored you. Now I'm not saying he knew the animal was sick, but am just a little suspicious as to why he would sell it for a much lower than asking price when he needed the money to pay off a vet bill.
The best way to figure out if you have a case is to get a necropsy. You will need one of those anyway if you do plan on suing him in small claims court, as an opinion by anyone other than a person qualified to give it is heresay. It may show the animal had fried kidneys or a bad liver from being overmedicated. If the lizard made any poo before buying the farm, you might want to check out the color of it. If the uric acid portion of it is yellowish rather than white, that is a good sign she had some liver damage.:thumbsup:
 
The best way to figure out if you have a case is to get a necropsy. You will need one of those anyway if you do plan on suing him in small claims court, as an opinion by anyone other than a person qualified to give it is heresay.

This is not good advice. There are many ways this person could handle his case were he to go to small claims, to say that this particular test is required is simply not the case.
While the more information and evidence the better, small claims is more informal and strict rules of evidence are not always adhered to.
 
Originally Posted by akonitony View Post
The best way to figure out if you have a case is to get a necropsy. You will need one of those anyway if you do plan on suing him in small claims court, as an opinion by anyone other than a person qualified to give it is heresay.

This is not good advice. There are many ways this person could handle his case were he to go to small claims, to say that this particular test is required is simply not the case.
While the more information and evidence the better, small claims is more informal and strict rules of evidence are not always adhered to.

On top of that, Lucille, a frozen animal is not a good candidate for a necropsy as the act of freezing interferes with the necropsy results.:shrug01:

**just putting this out there in case anyone believes that freezing for a later necropsy is the way to go.
 
On top of that, Lucille, a frozen animal is not a good candidate for a necropsy as the act of freezing interferes with the necropsy results.:shrug01:

**just putting this out there in case anyone believes that freezing for a later necropsy is the way to go.

Deb is 100% correct. Freezing does a good bit of tissue damage and can massively affect necropsy results.

Anytime you are considering a necropsy on something, put it in the fridge. Do not fully freeze.

Still waiting on Nathan to answer my question.... why was the gecko shipped two day and in 40*f weather with no heat?
 
What Autumn, Deb and Lucille say is true, but, "Ever heard of doing a necropsy on a frozen mammoth?" is what my friend who has been a veterinarian for some 25 years, and whose dad was a vet for about 40 years told me when I called him to check my facts this morning. I've assisted with necropsies of frozen specimens before. In one case, when a capybara died while coming out of anesthesia after a simple castration, and had no apparent cause. It had been frozen and sent to us where we had to thaw it out before cutting into it. While certain items such as blood could not be drawn and analyzed, we were able to look at the liver and determine by it's color and amount of fatty deposits it had a fatty liver, and therefore died from the liver not being able to metabolize the anesthesia (these were the days, before isoflurane was widely used in vet medicine, in which metaphane was used, which sometimes provided a nice trip to Jamaica for the vet tech who was monitoring anesthesia and happened to inhale some of it leaking from the machine, and was pretty hepatotoxic from what I remember). Anyway, my point was a necropsy might give some evidence that this lizard had liver or kidney disease, which I am now pretty sure would not be screwed up by freezing it, but yes, it is true that freezing does mess up some of the necropsy results, so it should be avoided if one is planned, but doesn't make the lizard's frozen body completely worthless. I also think "massive tissue destruction" is a bit of an overstatement with freezing. Better yet, I'd call a vet and ask them then call an attorney and see what they say. I've got friends of both and called them this morning before typing this and am basically telling you what they told me. In the words of my attorney friend, "the more evidence that supports your case, the better".
Now a necropsy might be a waste of money at this point, but you might be able circumvent it by using Lucille's advice regarding small claims court. If you know what a liver should look like and aren't grossed out by cutting your lizard open, you could probably do just that and take a picture of it, and if it is messed up, you could present that as evidence the seller would have to refute. You could just compare it to a pic of a nice healthy liver, which is usually a dark uniform brown and has no fatty deposits or bumps (I think - I'm color blind with red, green and some shades of blue, but that's what one looks like to me). If you open her up and locate the liver, then find a few little pimples or nodules in it, alyou can show the animal was not healthy before it was shipped, which would be a lot easier to proove than somehow telling the temps of the box while it was in transit. The reasons I am focusing on the liver is the seller admitted he medicated the animal with panacur, which is usually safe with small animals like dogs and cats, but needs to be diluted precisely to be used in a little lizard, and if he combined it with something like flagyl, he could have easily damaged the liver in this little girl. I won't even use flagyl in my Drymarchon - the parasites it kills are less damaging than the drug to their liver and kidney. That is my best advice anyway, and that is all it is, so you can take it or leave it. Like I said, call a lawyer and ask them. You might get shot down a couple of times, but eventually one will be nice enough to give you some free legal advice. Mine is a fellow church member, and he asks me all the time for my 'professional advice', so he doesn't mind answering my questions whenever I have them. I also realize this is only a $150 case, but somehow, I think the OP is a man of principals, as am I.
 
Don't twist my words. I said "massively affect necropsy results." not "massive tissue destruction."

Look I don't care what your vet buddies had to say about larger mammals. Plus all mammoths are frozen, frozen necropsy are the only option. :p

With the capybara, also a bigger animal more surface area in organs makes it easier to find an area with less cell destruction from freezing.

FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.... freezing a small reptile's corpse can effect a necropsy in significant ways. It blasts tissue areas and can register damage in organs were there may not have been any.

(I will happily debate this further with you in PMs if you wish, this thread is teetering toward off topic.)

At least the OP saved the body, but I doubt the sellers gives a rip. It's going to be excuse after excuse. Just keep on him. It's all out in the open and Nathan is free to dig his own grave or save face. It's his choice.
 
one will be nice enough to give you some free legal advice. Mine is a fellow church member

Whoever he is,and wherever you met him, if he told you a necropsy was required for a small claims case, he is simply incorrect. One of the reasons small claims procedures were initiated was to avoid costly proofs and expert advice that can run into the thousands of dollars.
 
Whoever he is,and wherever you met him, if he told you a necropsy was required for a small claims case, he is simply incorrect. One of the reasons small claims procedures were initiated was to avoid costly proofs and expert advice that can run into the thousands of dollars.

He did not say it was required, I thought that it was, my mistake, before I talked to him. That's why I've already stated you were correct, Lucille. The attorney did say it wouldn't hurt to have one ... the more evidence, the better his case. That is why I went into the take-a-picture-yourself mode. If what I am thinking is correct, and I think someone else mentioned it earlier, the seller may have overmedicated this animal and done some damage, and that is the real reason it died several days after being stressed. I really don't think a lack of heat pack would have killed the animal several days later, but more like either in transit, or maybe the next day. If it had a healthy liver, it could handle more stress, but if it was compromised, then just a little stress would flip it over the edge. Think of the over 500 functions the liver does, and that is why I say cut it open and see what it looks like.

Now back to the freezing/necropsy argument. I decided to call someone else who specializes in necropsies only. His name is Patrick Knisley, and he is the head of the necropsy department at the University of Florida's small animal veterinary teaching hospital. He said he could do a necropsy on a lizard that has been frozen for 2 weeks, or even longer, and there would be some artifacts in the tissue samples that can mask certain histological facts, but he could still do the necropsy, and they can look at tissue samples and rule in or out if the liver was previously damaged. He also made it clear they cannot say what damaged the liver if it is damaged, but can say that it was damaged before being frozen if it was indeed damaged. He also stated that yes, freezing is an evil thing against necropsies, but it is the lesser of the two evils of that or degredation, so if the necropsy is going to be put on hold for a while, which it has, freezing is the only viable option, and they can tell what most of the artifacts caused by freezing in a tissue sample are. He then made a suggestion after I told him the whole story, that would be cost effective. Since a necropsy can cost $380, he suggested going to a local veterinarian and have them send in tissue samples to the lab to be analyzed. Two tissue samples costs $50, and if the OP has the liver and kidneys checked, those would indeed cover pretty much what would be damaged from overmedication. If he wins the case, he could also recoup any losses for getting these looked at, but probably should warn the seller, in writing, he is going to do this so the seller has a chance to give a refund before possibly incurring more losses (my advice, not my attorney friend's). He also explained how to do it:

Go to www.vetmed.ufl.edu then click on the link to laboratories. Next go to surgical pathologies and click on submission forms. The address to send the tissue samples to is on the form. Also, write on the form they were frozen, so they know what they are looking at. He also specified DO NOT send it to his attn, as he will not be the one doing the report. They will in turn bill the vet clinic who took the samples. Anyway, I hope this helps, as that is all I am trying to do here.

The case could be that simple. Possibly have a histology workup showing the liver had problems or the kidneys were damaged and have the seller's statement he typed earlier where he admits giving it panacur, then make the case the animal was already sick from being overmedicated. NTA did fail to mention he had medicatied this animal before the deal was done. It's a lot easier than making the case of no heatpack caused it to die a few days later, which may be what happened, but it is just harder to prove. All the seller has to do to refute that is get one of his buddies to say he received the same species packed the same way in 40°F temps, and it is fine.

I figure that is the very best advice I could find, and I realize these are second-hand statements, but I'm not using them to prove anything, just to pass on advice.
 
I don't even know where to start, whatever.

Deb and I were both offering a general rule of thumb for people and necropsy freezing vs. refrigeration. Not saying it was the end all, be all for the flipping universe. No need to call every vet with a phone to prove us wrong.

I don't know what the OP's financial status is, but most of us can't afford to sink a massive amount of money into testing over a $150 animal. There is no guarantee that the OP would ever see that money back, even if it went to court. If this was a, let's say $2,000 transaction, I might see the reasoning for going through with testing. I would not invest a vast sum of cash into a case like this. Ratcheting up more and more vet bills at this point seems like a waste.

What most logically killed this animal was 2 day shipping in a way too cold for two long box.

I hope the OP gets some resolution. Nathan seems to have clammed up and I can only the OP will get compensation from him at some point soon.
 
there can be significant info found from a frozen thawed decesed reptile (snake/lizard). although, freezing destrays vital cells during the process, when you thaw the animal, there are some things that become hindered or out right impossible to test/diagnose. but many potential problems relating to immediate unknown cause of death, can still be salvaged and diagnosed from a f/t specimen.
i would still have it performed even on f/t lizard or snake, and see if they can diagnost a reason for death officially.
 
there can be significant info found from a frozen thawed decesed reptile (snake/lizard). although, freezing destrays vital cells during the process, when you thaw the animal, there are some things that become hindered or out right impossible to test/diagnose. but many potential problems relating to immediate unknown cause of death, can still be salvaged and diagnosed from a f/t specimen.
i would still have it performed even on f/t lizard or snake, and see if they can diagnost a reason for death officially.

But WHY?

We nearly all agree that the shipping method plus no heat pack was more than likely the culprit of the issue. Why complicate matters?:shrug01:
 
i would still have it performed even on f/t lizard or snake, and see if they can diagnost a reason for death officially.

Why bother,it's like flushing more money down the toilet as the seller will not even reply to this thread, do you think even if the lizard is proven to be diseased any money will be refunded?

Nathan Tow-Arnett is someone to stay far far away from, someone to never buy from.
 
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