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Need Help!! Jeffrey Grass has burned me good!

Again, who you ship with is up to you. I don't think their are any bad shipping companies out there in my experiences and it is your OPINION on who you want to use with YOUR animals. You put any animals in danger when you ship with any company. Life is full of risks, get over it. You need not personally attack me either. I would appreciate it if you didn't respond to this thread anymore. Its seems like the only outcome besides racking up points, is to personally attack everthing I've done.

Jeff Janes
 
You know, I give up. To many people on the other side of the issue who do not care about doing it the right way.

Dan,

He stated that he would not mark live animals on the box in at least three or four quotes because of the way the package is treated.

Then he said the buyer would get in trouble not him so he is going to ship them that way still.

Then he said he was still going to give the option of shipping through the post office.

Then he said he never said he would not mark the box.

Ok. He made a simple mistake I got ya. Never mind.

Dan
You said yourself, you have only had what two or three online deals and you have had two of them go bad. I have had dozens and not one bad deal yet because I want to make sure of the character of the person I am dealing with.

This board does a lot of good and for you to say that is inaccurate and wrong.
 
wilomn said:
Do we even know if they are dead yet?

Is there a tracking number or phone number available?

Let's get that fact right before shannon get's the cross fully braced.

Track & Confirm

Current Status


You entered ED38 9698 941U S

Another attempt to deliver your item was made at 11:13 am on February 16, 2005 in HOLLY, MI 48442 and a notice was left. Your mailpiece will be held for five business days from this attempt date and then it will be returned to the sender. No further information is available for this item.

Still not picked up the package. There is nothing I can do to get these guys back any faster. If they are alive it will be a miracle and I will keep them as they will be very lucky. Here are a couple pictures of them.

Jeff Janes
 

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I dont think the seller's reptibid auctions are going to be successful. There have been numerous comments left on them and he has no bids. That is great news!
 
Dennis: I did not say that this board does not do a lot of good. I believe this board helps a lot of customers, but also serves as a source of humor for others. It did for me for several years until I was robbed. Then it was not as funny. Well, it still is to be honest. Its human nature you know.

On the contrary to your statements, you misread my words and your interpretation was inaccurate and wrong. I said that his biggest mistake was asking for help on this forum. It was based on the fact that after 16 pages, he received no help until I posted the link where he can get help. The boy is about to crack and you think he got help? Take some time and go back and do a thorough evaluation at how many customers come here with a problem and go away crushed or with their tail between their legs for some minor detail such as a label or they did not do a necropsy or they fudged something minor and it blew the problem and the resolve well out of proportion. Now if he did not label it, and it was sent to China, and it was someone's dinner, then I see your point to keep this going for so many pages. Regardless man, you cannot subject people to such scrutiny after they have been a recent victim of a crime. Can you understand that? I do not think you and many people understand that. All you guys want is short bullets with facts, so you can give your quick two cents to find fault in the bullets. I mean your haste to figure out his personality and traits is going to nag him to death and he is going to wig out and flush the freaking lizards down the toilet or do a rain dance on their heads.

Your intentions are very good and respected, however such, you cannot put someone who was raped on the stand and ask her if she liked it and where it hurt just like you cannot nail him for every minor detail he forgot or did wrong or said wrong or explained wrong afterward. Also, the jury here is mostly reptile dealers, so you start out starting out paddling up this **** creek with one broken paddle in the first place. And its not their fault either. Its the best it can be and everything can always be improved.
 
Dan Scolaro said:
problem and go away crushed or with their tail between their legs for some minor detail such as a label or they did not do a necropsy or they fudged something minor and it blew the problem and the resolve well out of proportion. All you guys want is short bullets with facts, so you can give your quick two cents to find fault in the bullets.

Rules for posting at the top of the BOI posted by WebSlave
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan Scolaro said:
or they did not do a necropsy or they fudged something minor


YOU have to take responsibility and ownership of the words you post here. So take great care in how you craft your statements. Once you submit your message, it will be here PERMANENTLY, no matter what happens afterwards.

Dan Scolaro said:
All you guys want is short bullets with facts.
Statements, rebuttals and clarifications of FACTS are what we are looking for.

Dan Scolaro said:
minor detail such as a label or they did not do a necropsy

Proof is optional, but recommended if you would like to remove any doubts about the truth of what you are posting. But this is purely up to you, just as the believability of what you post is purely up to the reader of your words.

This forum can also be an excellent source of feedback for a person or business to see how the public generally expects them to behave in a business sense.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Jeff,

I sincerely hope you get your money back. I also hope the dragons are still alive. I hope nobody buys from the seller. I wish you did not send them back that way.

I think all points have been made unless the seller responds.
 
Dan Scolaro said:
Dennis: I did not say that this board does not do a lot of good. I believe this board helps a lot of customers, but also serves as a source of humor for others. It did for me for several years until I was robbed. Then it was not as funny. Well, it still is to be honest. Its human nature you know.

On the contrary to your statements, you misread my words and your interpretation was inaccurate and wrong. I said that his biggest mistake was asking for help on this forum. It was based on the fact that after 16 pages, he received no help until I posted the link where he can get help. The boy is about to crack and you think he got help? Take some time and go back and do a thorough evaluation at how many customers come here with a problem and go away crushed or with their tail between their legs for some minor detail such as a label or they did not do a necropsy or they fudged something minor and it blew the problem and the resolve well out of proportion. Now if he did not label it, and it was sent to China, and it was someone's dinner, then I see your point to keep this going for so many pages. Regardless man, you cannot subject people to such scrutiny after they have been a recent victim of a crime. Can you understand that? I do not think you and many people understand that. All you guys want is short bullets with facts, so you can give your quick two cents to find fault in the bullets. I mean your haste to figure out his personality and traits is going to nag him to death and he is going to wig out and flush the freaking lizards down the toilet or do a rain dance on their heads.

Your intentions are very good and respected, however such, you cannot put someone who was raped on the stand and ask her if she liked it and where it hurt just like you cannot nail him for every minor detail he forgot or did wrong or said wrong or explained wrong afterward. Also, the jury here is mostly reptile dealers, so you start out starting out paddling up this **** creek with one broken paddle in the first place. And its not their fault either. Its the best it can be and everything can always be improved.

I am afraid that I am going to have to side with Dan on this one. This thread went way over the edge and I do believe it was not necessary. What is to be served by beating up on someone that has made a mistake? Sure it is good to point it out to him, but the name calling and general bashing tone? I don't think so.

One of the reasons I went to paid member only access to this forum was because I want to clean it up. That also include those people who HAVE paid to post in here as well. And I do mean to do just that. If you have trouble restraining yourself and keeping your comments professional and a bit diplomatic, go to the testing forum on this site and practice a bit until you get it right. Practice real hard, please, because I am very serious about the goals I have set in this transition. I am quite willing to dump quite a few people in order to accomplish this, so please make sure that you don't inadvertently jump into that dumpster too. Before you press that Submit Reply button after you have typed out a message in anger, go outside and walk around the house three times and then come back and proofread it. Remove all that stuff that was said with emotions running high, and just leave the meat on the plate.

I hope I am clear on this policy.

But Dan, I do have to disagree with you on one point. In my opinion, the authorities are pretty much worthless in penny ante crimes like this. By "this" I mean transactions that are less than several thousand dollars in value. I've been that route several times and never got anywhere. The reason I set up the BOI was precisely for that reason. Maybe some people have gotten lucky and gotten resolutions that way, but I suspect they are the exception rather then the rule.
 
But Dan, I do have to disagree with you on one point. In my opinion, the authorities are pretty much worthless in penny ante crimes like this. By "this" I mean transactions that are less than several thousand dollars in value. I've been that route several times and never got anywhere. The reason I set up the BOI was precisely for that reason. Maybe some people have gotten lucky and gotten resolutions that way, but I suspect they are the exception rather then the rule.

Oh, I see in a some other threads offering some good advice given at the start and then other good advice follows, however in this particular thread, it seemed that no one was giving good advice. Yea, they all agreed the seller was a bad guy and all, but advice was lacking as compared to the investigation into the buyer. And your right that if it does not involve thousands of dollars, it is not given too much attention by the proper authorities. And if governments did their jobs properly, there may not be a need for this forum. As such, they do not do their jobs right, and it justifies a real need for this forum. Personally, I do not think the majority of commentator's are intentionally setting out to wrong anyone, but more so are frustrated with have to get the details which they believe bears weight and consideration in the matter. Forgive me for not researching this, and if it is already present in the rules, but when someone prompts to make a new thread, would it not be helpful if a disclaimer or instructions were provided in small print somewhere on the side, asking for dates, times, methods of shipments, emails, phone conversations, pictures, and many other details so when this stuff is posted it does not take a dozen pages to yank it out of the person? If its in the rules on another page, perhaps new thread starters like me have neglected to read or find it? And an option could be made available if this information is not available or relevant? Just a thought? Perhaps a "John Doe" mock post should also be available which included all this information can be made easily accessible so someone can read it and form their transaction in a similar fashion so that it not only includes as much available information, the format is somewhat familiar to the readers who have to pick through it to help. Or a formatted complaint form may help as used by most investigative agencies? It is so easy to come here with a five line complaint and have it milked to 20 pages before anyone can really provide any beneficial information. And by that time, the reader is way too lost to care about helping then. But perhaps a form might make some people veer away from making a complaint? I am sure others have suggested this stuff before but it came to mind this morning. And I think your forum should have those links to those Internet agencies that take these reports as if they did receive as many complaints as seen on this forum, perhaps they may do something with this information because although this forum is helping to clean this industry, I do not see us doing it ourselves in the long run. And if it mushrooms and government steps in, they are going to wipe the slate clean, and I mean it. I worked for the government for 20 years, and that is their method. It is easier for them to stop this industry then to deal with the few people who have the time to stand and fight for it. I mean for every two or three bad guys that drop out of the business, five more enter all with honest intentions and have to resort to unscrupulous manners just to make their initial efforts worth while to remain in business. These are not bad people, however, their actions eventually hurt animals and customers. And personally, I think that any and all animal classifieds forums should include information on the side to aid consumers, such as fraud advice, things to make sure are arranged before and during the purchase, and signs and symptoms to be weary about, and how to safely send money and not get robbed. It will make the consumer smart and the seller smarter and more responsible. I mean on a recent post the debate went for pages about some guys deposit policy. Well, the word deposit should have refundable or nonrefundable in front of it, regardless of what the "norm" is in this industry. Yea, the experienced buyer or seller knows that "deposit" usually means nonrefundable, however try to explain that to some guy missing one leg or some naive lady with 9 kids drinking 5 gallons of milk each day and each wanting a lizard for a Christmas present. That type of information, refundable, nonrefundable, should be mandatory if you make a post to sell something. Also, should be mandatory if you sell something is a box they check with their shipping methods. I mean if your force people to use safe practices to sell stuff, it will weed out the crooks. Let them go elsewhere like to jail. There are hundreds if not thousands of businesses that have established methods to protect their own industries and the long-term goal would be to adapt a similar type of approach if not for the sake of the consumer, but for the sake of the animal. And when government comes knocking, you can throw that in their face and tell them to find some other industry to harass.
 
Seller responding

I would not hold my breath waiting for the seller to respond.

Used to be that some scammers and wrongdoers WOULD respond and it certainly helped out the thread and anyone that was looking to see who to trust or not.

However, since you can only post if you pay now, those kind of people will simply not do it, or very, very rarely.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for cleaning up the BOI, I'm all for helping it out financially.

However I think a vital part of what made the BOI a great tool in weeding out the "loosers" has been lost.

The kind like "Jeff Grassi" will just not pay to repond ...They might have responded before, if nothing more then for the heck of it. But pay to do this? Doubt it seriosly.

I fear that this is how most threads like this are going to be from now on. Very one sided...

Wish there would have been another way to "fix up" the BOI.

Something else....about the labeling of the box. OK, in the case of the USPS its illegal NOT to do it correctly, but you know what. Every single reptile I have EVER received in shipping, came in a box that was unmarked, with no indication as to what was inside.
Some came from VERY WELL known and honest sellers. Most were packed in a careful and safe manner.

But to complain how every box should be marked...hah, I'd like to see the percentage of boxes that are actually marked "live reptile".

And I would love to know, in how many cases it would be detrimental for the animals to do so. Many people despise reptiles, many people are cruel or play "jokes"....wouldn't want to know just how many of those correctly labeled boxes might end up being treated just a bit more roughly if not worse.

I fear for those dragons. I strongly STRONGLY despise the seller, in my eyes he is one of the worst offenders yet. HE KNOWS !!!!!!!!!! those dragons are at the postoffice, that has already been established.

Yet he chooses to let them die a slow and painful death.

Jeff Grassi, if you read this, you are a scumbag of the worst kind. I believe in Karma and hope you will get yours soon.
 
Jeff Grassi and Karma

Yep, he's gonna get his. What goes around comes around. He has the (probable) death of those beardies on his hands (and probably lots others, too). :hot: Karma won't be pleasant to him, either, and he will sooooooo deserve it.
 
Dan,

Lots of good ideas in that post!!! Sometimes the obvious is hard to see. Again, good ideas!!
 
dan, I have to disagree with your single paragraph 3000 word post. I'd pick the lines individually to show you where but reading through it once was tough enough. Please use a skipped line every once in a while at the least.

A seller cannot be responsible for mom having nine kids all wanting lizards and not being smart enough to ask about a refund. That's on the buyer. If you do your homework and don't but from the cheapest source you can find, you'll probably be ok.

More government regulation (see I changed subject so I started a new paragraph) is the LAST thing we need. While your ideas for having it are well intended, I'd take a pass myself. I don't want anyone from the government more involved than they already are.

As far as you assertion (see another new paragraph) that people who "fudge" something are not bad guys, I have to disagree. If you lie to me you're lair, plain and simple. If you ship illegally, you're breaking the law. Sure lots of folks do it but that DOES NOT excuse it. I speed all the time. I know I shouldn't but I do. Yes I'm a speeder. However, I lable my packages correctly. Getting caught speeding is an inconvienence, will cost me some cash but, unless I'm a danger to someone or a habitual speeder, it won't impact anyone else. If YOU don't lable you packages properly, and I mean anyone not just you dan, then YOU COULD effect me and EVERYONE else in this industry.

As far as bashing the buyer, yes, some folks jumped him good. That's the breaks. SOME of us did NOT. I suspect that there has been more help than hindrance here from most.

It ain't perfect but it's a damn sight better than more government regulation.

If we could just keep the crucifien' down a bit, it would be better. Some folks think with their emotions more than their brains sometimes.

On a side note, I'm getting rather tired of some of you totally overlooking the fact that NOT everyone gives everyone who comes here a ration of sh$t if we don't agree immediately with what is being said. It's a poor day on fauna when I, of all people, have to, once again, say think before you post.
 
Wes,

It think you (or was it me?) misunderstood. Dan was saying we do NOT need the governmant coming into this industry and regulating it.

Also, having links to the proper fraud reporting authorities somewhere on this site is a great idea.

An example of a good complaint post so people know the type of info that is needed would be great too.

Also, Dans idea about having a sticky about fraud advice, what to look for in scammers, etc was again a good idea. Should we not be here to help prevent the crime before it happens and not just afterwards?

Most of us that have been around have already learned these lessons, but there are 100's, if not 1000's of new herpers every year that do not know these things. I personally think it would be good info to have here.
 
It may well have been me, it has happened before. I think I thought I was wrong once but it turned out I was right, you know, that kind of thing.

Anyway, I do agree about all the links and fraud stuff being available here. That is a good idea. I just don't want more regulations than we already have anytime sooner than absolutely necessary.

Paragraphs, dan, paragraphs.
 
wilomn said:
Paragraphs, dan, paragraphs.

Lol, I could not agree more. My head is still hurting from reading that TWICE.
 
Wes: Paragraphs were intentionally left out so I would avoid 200 complaining posts that I write so much. I guess it backfired. Oh well, your dammed if you do, your dammed if you don't.

dan, I have to disagree with your single paragraph 3000 word post. I'd pick the lines individually to show you where but reading through it once was tough enough. Please use a skipped line every once in a while at the least. OK, I have done so in the some of my previous posts when the topic of the paragraph changed. This one stayed the same.

A seller cannot be responsible for mom having nine kids all wanting lizards and not being smart enough to ask about a refund. That's on the buyer. If you do your homework and don't but from the cheapest source you can find, you'll probably be ok. All I meant was if a mom with 9 kids makes a deposit, and asks for a refund, maybe it should be considered. And if the seller was smart enough to give a refund without the buyer even asking, Mom would buy each nine kid a lizard a week later, the kids would tell their school mates what a great guy the seller was, and that would mushroom into 50 sales for the seller.

More government regulation (see I changed subject so I started a new paragraph) is the LAST thing we need. While your ideas for having it are well intended, I'd take a pass myself. I don't want anyone from the government more involved than they already are. Neither do I, and that was a point in my post.

As far as you assertion (see another new paragraph) that people who "fudge" something are not bad guys, I have to disagree. If you lie to me you're lair, plain and simple. If you ship illegally, you're breaking the law. Sure lots of folks do it but that DOES NOT excuse it. I speed all the time. I know I shouldn't but I do. Yes I'm a speeder. However, I lable my packages correctly. Getting caught speeding is an inconvienence, will cost me some cash but, unless I'm a danger to someone or a habitual speeder, it won't impact anyone else. If YOU don't lable you packages properly, and I mean anyone not just you dan, then YOU COULD effect me and EVERYONE else in this industry. Fudge is a bit different from an outright lie. That is why there is a word "fudge" and a word "lie". I think if you force someone to speak up on a public forum and they "fudge" or give information to fudge an answer as they do not know the right answer or are fearful the right answer may hurt them further, a bit of common sense and consideration may be needed in some instances, especially if they were intimidated to speak up. I mean, get this idea: In most instances when a bad dealer is going to rob someone, they try to make the buyer go along with something wrong in an effort to prevent the buyer from making a complaint about it. Do not believe me? OK, just keep it in mind and you will see that exact pattern in a lot of bad deals. To be a fair evaluator on this forum, you have to already have the idea in your head that someone who was ripped off may already be partly at fault or guilty of something not so relevant to the buyers request for help, and that should not be the focus of the thread, as was in this thread. I agree that shipping illegally is breaking the law. I do not speed all the time either and do not think everyone labels all packages however it should be done.

As far as bashing the buyer, yes, some folks jumped him good. That's the breaks. SOME of us did NOT. I suspect that there has been more help than hindrance here from most. I see a lot of agreement that the seller was a bad guy, I see the buyer voice that he is on his last leg to stay here, but I do not see the help as much. I did not recall that you did, and did not imply that you specifically did. And what help can anyone offer this buyer at this point? Heck, I think many people wanted to help and started to help, but ran out of ideas and it was easier to attack the buyer for something to do to get good rep points or something? I do not understand it myself?

It ain't perfect but it's a damn sight better than more government regulation. I am not sure about that. For example, what can we actually do to stop this seller from doing this again under another name unless someone figures it out? The government can throw his butt in jail and fine him. We cannot.

If we could just keep the crucifien' down a bit, it would be better. Some folks think with their emotions more than their brains sometimes. Yea, your right about that. Not many people will come here simply because of being attacked. It seems there are rules for posting a thread, but no rules for people who inquiry into the thread. Maybe I am wrong, but both parties need guidance and rules? And a bit of a second reading of the thread and your response before the post is made.

On a side note, I'm getting rather tired of some of you totally overlooking the fact that NOT everyone gives everyone who comes here a ration of sh$t if we don't agree immediately with what is being said. It's a poor day on fauna when I, of all people, have to, once again, say think before you post. I think it is how it is all worded. People like yourself who help everyday get used to pattern of questions and interrogation and new people are a bit offended by the quick attacks as they are not familiar with them. And that is the problem with solving problems with forums and emails and the such. It is hard to communicate ideas without everyone in the same room working toward on goal. I mean a lot of these forums go way off topic because two irrelevant people have a misunderstanding between each other. This post is a perfect example of that.
 
Dan Scolaro said:
It ain't perfect but it's a damn sight better than more government regulation. I am not sure about that. For example, what can we actually do to stop this seller from doing this again under another name unless someone figures it out? The government can throw his butt in jail and fine him. We cannot.

QUOTE=Dan Scolaro]
People like yourself who help everyday get used to pattern of questions and interrogation and new people are a bit offended by the quick attacks as they are not familiar with them[/QUOTE]

Dan, It does good and nobody in their right mind would want more regulations.
You may never stop a seller but you can sure hamper them. It takes time to build a name for your self. In this time a bad guy is going to show his colors.

I have spent time on every single related board targeting your Bad Guy and I think the publicity he has received has hindered his sells greatly, no matter what he says.

You did not complain when I brought to light he was posting under different names and I hounded him continuously.


QUOTE=Dan Scolaro]
People like yourself who help everyday get used to pattern of questions and interrogation and new people are a bit offended by the quick attacks as they are not familiar with them[/QUOTE]

You’re probably right here.
When I first started lurking on this board I thought who is this Wes guy, seems like a jerk and attacking people.

After awhile you understand that the questions asked have a meaning and most of the time he was right on the money.

The little "fudges" you mention become a pattern and soon you have full-blown liar on your hand.
 
Dennis: Well, perhaps we have sufficient regulation, but not proper and sufficient enforcement of the regulation. You know this is perhaps one of a few million dollar industries where any tom, dick, or harry can attach a fancy reptile name to themselves and sell stuff without a business license or permit. Not that it is wrong, but lack of organization will lead to lack of regulation and lack of enforcement of regulations.

And I wish you were right about hampering a seller, but I suspect that most people intent on making in this business will manage to come back later under different names and only get smarter with their target customer. And it may just make the bad seller work harder to expand his busiess or expand his trickery? Or even worse, they apologize to all, become reborn in the church, and are back at it 10 years later when you or I forgot about them. I appreciate your smart analysis on the part of the bad guy in that other post, however I think a lighter approach may have been necessary in this case with the seller.

Yea, and of course, if someone keeps fudging then you call a halt to it after a careful consideration to why they are fudging so much. I think Wes is a good guy and has good intentions, and is quick to figure out a problem, perhaps too quick for us older guys. However buyers who had a bad transaction write down information and they do not often think their mere words will all be taken literally, and they often are. They assume that the reader will know where they are coming from, and most do, some do not and throw rocks before careful consideration of why someone would say that in the first place.

I think we should forget all this for now and provide the buyer here with any further useful information to help him with his problem.
 
Fudge is something you eat. Period.

Truth is NOT a lie.

A lie is NOT the truth.

They are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. (unless you're a lawyer or politician)

I will NOT cut you slack if you lie or fudge or whatever you want to call it and if I find out about it I'll call you out on it.

Experiance in life in general has led me to believe that someone who will "fudge" about something today, will have an easier time LYING about something tomorrow. Homey don't play dat game.
 
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