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Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

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-Can we actually put a time frame on when the snake became infected? How can we tell the snake was infected in Tim's collection or Matt's? If its found that none of the other snakes in Tim's collection have it.. and none of the snakes sold by Tim have it.. well.. someone created quite a bit if slander (or is it libel.. I always forget which one its considered online) towards anothers business, which can have a very bad effect on Tim... and give Tim legal actions to take against Matt.

you guys can argue all you want about the details asked for in the quote above.

I, on the other hand, already know what I need to know.

1. This snake was knowingly shipped while it was very ill.
2. this snake was knowingly ill. Ho do I know? Well I certainly do not think it is common practice to rehydrate a helathy snake by giving it subq injections.

So you can call it slander and take Tim's side all you want. In the end he knowingly tried to pass off a sick snake as being healthy.....end of story.
 
Date of shipment to you
07-15-03

Date of receipt
07-16-03 9:01 am


Date of first vet check
07-17-03

Date of animal's expiration
08-05-03
 
Well, that's pretty clear, Huh? Now, if you can just get your vet to tell you what the incubation period for this virus is, we'll be able to put this seemingly non-issue to bed.
 
It was shipped to Tim in october of last year and I have no idea about the incubation times
 
Scott, I was not suggesting that Tim "let " his animals contact a virus. The thing that still upsets me is the fact (and it is a fact) that Tim shipped this animal in that condition. The condition that was witnessed by everyone who bothered to view the pictures that Matt posted. Is that a fact? You sound like you have owned/own Emeralds. What is your opinion of those pictures? Does the animals condition in the photos look like something that could have happened during shipping?

If we agree that the snake in those pictures was in horrible condition upon arrival...........can we agree that Tim is solely responsible for that? How long was that animal in that condition? Did it ever cross Tim's mind to seek vet care for the snake? Was the snake isolated from the rest of his collection? Who knows, but we do know that the snake did not get that way over night. It is my opinion that the Emerald was battling these symtoms for some time, probably a couple of weeks before being shipped.
 
Here is a passage from a paper at the link below. It might give some insight as to the incubation period.

In an epizootic involving rock rattlesnakes (Crotalus lepidus), a new breeder male was introduced into an established collection without being quarantined. Ultimately this snake was in contact with 8 other rock rattlesnakes, 7 of which died. On day 3 following introduction the new snake developed head tremors and loss of equilibrium (Figure 1); it died on day 14. Over the next 2 1/2 months, 4 females and 3 males died after manifesting clinical signs. Only one rattlesnake remained healthy and survived.

Craig Clark

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/sacs/wildlife/Pmyx.html
 
"Over the next 2 1/2 months, 4 females and 3 males died after manifesting clinical signs. "

Ok, let's assume for the sake of discussion (until further evidence proves otherwise), that this time frame represents a typical incubation period. Let's further assume that all seven of these animals did not die on the same day, 75 days after intial contact with the wild caught male of the account. Let's assume that these animals died over a period of one month (30 days) according to each individual animal's ability to fight off the affects of the virus.

A lot of assumptions, I know. However, I don't believe that any of them are beyond reason, nor do I think that all of them together paint an unfair picture here. The weakest animals likely died around 45 days after intial infection, and stronger animals made it as far as 75 days after infection.

If those figures are anywhere near accurate, there is NO WAY that snake got this virus from Matt's collection, because he only had her for a grand total of twenty (20) days, nineteen (19) of which were at his vet's office!!!!

C'mon, Tim! Be an honorable man about this . . . refund the money, including vet care, you clearly owe Matt! Scrape up what's left of your pride and own up to your responsibilities!
 
Ghi Reptiles said:
Hey Scott,

Good point but you are obviously not a lawyer either. It is neither slander or libel.....according to the lab work...the snake I received from Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest tests positive for the virus Paramixo.

Should I keep quiet and possibly let collections get infected. It is called taking preventive measures. I sincerely hope this is the only animal that has it and it was on me and thats it. But if you are Joe Smith and you saved for years to aquire enough money for a 'Basin' do you want it to possibly infect your colubrid, boid, or python collection? I thought not.

Scott we are well aware that you are Tims friend and you are trying to help but throwing out a silly slander statement is rediculous.

I would rather take a chance and save others the same heartache and possible financial catastrophy!

Actually.. since you posted a thread about Tim's collection having the virus.... and.. now this is in theory.. since we are yet to determine where the virus came from me... it turns out it was not in Tim's collection.. and you publically posted false statements that could (and I am sure are) harming his business prospects... to me.. that would be a good case of libel/slander.. but.. this discussion is all in theory since I do not see a determination of where the virus came from. Obviously, you will not claim the virus.. and.. I doubt Tim will claim that it is in his collection. Maybe former customers of Tim's can get their snakes checked.. that would be a good indication if it came from his collection.

I am not sure the incubation period for this virus.. but.. if its a long period.. since this snake was originally yours.. that... you sent Tim the snake with the virus.. it just took this long to take effect. Again, pure theory here since I do not know the incubation times of this virus. I know people that have kept emeralds for over a year only to lose them to ERS.
 
I am not sure the incubation period for this virus.. but.. if its a long period.. since this snake was originally yours.. that... you sent Tim the snake with the virus.. it just took this long to take effect.




boy i knew that was coming, saw it a mile away...........
 
salito718 said:
I am not sure the incubation period for this virus.. but.. if its a long period.. since this snake was originally yours.. that... you sent Tim the snake with the virus.. it just took this long to take effect.




boy i knew that was coming, saw it a mile away...........

If this discussion has degenerated into speculation... no reason not to throw that in to the fire.
 
The one thing that amazes me more than anything else in this entire thread is how some people seem to be trying to ignore the simple fact that.............Tim KNEW without a doubt that the snake was seriously ill when he sent it, that above all else SHOULD be the focal point of this entire thread. At least it is to me.
 
Fair enough, but the cited article gave an outside incubation of 2 1/2 months (75 days). Tim had her for longer than that, didn't he? Again, we don't know all of the "what if's" about this yet, but you have to admit it doesn't look to good for Tim.

Even if the suggested hypothetical were true, Tim would still be guilty of selling and shipping a sick snake under false pretenses (the fact that he was doing so to the person from whom he got the animal seems moot to THAT point), and he would still have had a collection that had been exposed for a period of time to a highly contagious, extremely fatal disease. That should make any breeder/customer extremely nervous, wouldn't you agree, Scott?

Also, as to the question of libel (slander is spoken . . . they both begin with "s" is how I remember), you would still have some hurdles to cover, from Tim's position:

Firstly, you would have to prove intent to do harm by Matt. He has stated here that this warning was only so that those who may have purchased from Tim could be encouraged to have their animals tested. No malicious behavior there. Now, Tim may suspect malicious intent, but PROVING it is another issue.

Secondly, Tim has to prove that such malicious-intent-backed behavior actually damaged his business to a certain degree. Now, Tim can show that his business has suffered from this thread, I suppose, but is it due to the statements about a possible virus in his collection, the way he injected a snake full of liquid in an attempt to disguise its malnourished state, the manner in which he has completely ignored the requests of former supporters to come clean on this, or the way in which he completely refused to address ANY of the pertinent issues surrounding this instance? Any, or all, of those issues might cause his business to drop off. I would say that Tim would have a hard time affixing ANY set percentage of damage to Matt's statements.

Thirdly, and most important IMHO, the statements have to be known to be false when they were made. We are not yet even certain they are false at this time. There is no way Matt could have known they were false (if they prove to be, I am not at all convinced one way or the other) when he posted that vet report and drew his own conclusions.

Just a little perspective on the libel issue . . .
 
Yes he knew but he sent it any way. It would not matter if it was sick when Matt sent it he would not have known that if she looked healthy. But when he got her back she was not healthy at all. Tim knew that. He should have done the right thing and not sold this snake back to Matt. He should have found out why this snake was so sick. Just a trip to the vet would have been all he needed to do.
I just hope everyone elses snakes are fine. (the ones that Tim has sold lately) I hate to see any more go through what this one did. That is just bad.
Good luck Matt I hope you get what you need back from Tim.

Shawn
 
Darin Chappell said:
Even if the suggested hypothetical were true, Tim would still be guilty of selling and shipping a sick snake under false pretenses (the fact that he was doing so to the person from whom he got the animal seems moot to THAT point), and he would still have had a collection that had been exposed for a period of time to a highly contagious, extremely fatal disease. That should make any breeder/customer extremely nervous, wouldn't you agree, Scott?

Agreed!

Also, as to the question of libel (slander is spoken . . . they both begin with "s" is how I remember), you would still have some hurdles to cover, from Tim's position:
Just a little perspective on the libel issue . . .

Thanks for helping out..I switched those two around in class all the time too.. ah well.
 
Actually.. since you posted a thread about Tim's collection having the virus.... and.. now this is in theory.. since we are yet to determine where the virus came from me... it turns out it was not in Tim's collection.. and you publically posted false statements that could (and I am sure are) harming his business prospects... to me.. that would be a good case of libel/slander.. but.. this discussion is all in theory since I do not see a determination of where the virus came from.
]
Hey Scott,

Tim should thank you for all the support but I did not say anywhere that his collection had the virus but said it is possible since my animal that came from him had it that anyone else who got one from him should have theirs checked. Please reread it carefully again and again and don't post things I didn't say.

Thanks!
 
ummm...

and you publically posted false statements that could (and I am sure are) harming his business prospects... to me.. that would be a good case of libel/slander.. but..

... I think Tim did all he could possibly do to ruin his OWN business prospects...let's be realisitc shall we? He shoulda thought twice before sending a bloated, dying, EXPENSIVE, and now possibly infective snake to a well known Corallus collector.

Bottom line, regardless of the virus issue, Tim is now a BAD GUY.
 
Tim Bowles is still not responding to any of this......kind of seems weird huh? If 'I' was innocent, I would be screaming at the top of my lungs to clear my name. Seems to me I recall one of Tims good friends saying that if someone doesn't respond to accusations and doesn't answer questions he/she is guilty. Personally I don't believe that but maybe Tim does and he is too ashamed to post anything that has to do with the actual events leading up to, during, and after my receiving the snake.

Tim Bowles are you there reading this? Do you still have your vipers? They are a big carrier of Paramixo Virus. Let us know.
 
I'm sure most of you know that my emerald was put to sleep yesterday. She had a tough time and with the Paramixo test being positive there was nothing else that could be done for her. I am pretty bummed that the whole deal went down the way it did and Tim still refuses to make good on it.

When I paid $2,500.00 up front for an emerald tree boa from Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest I would have never guessed that she would end up like this
100_0002.sized.jpg


I would like to stress.....$2,500.00 not $250.00. Even at $250.00 I would feel ripped off!
 
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