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Neil Gubitz, Tampa Snake Pit (Good Guy)

I have purchased corns for as low as $6 and then resold them to pet stores for $18. That works out to a 200% profit margin. That was acceptable to me. It's called business, guys.

All in all, this boils down to one issue only: Either Neil misrepresented this animal, or he did not. If he did, THAT is Ivan's sole reason for complaint. If he did not, Ivan ought to lick his wounds and live to fight another day in the battle for lower prices.

Neil is a bad guy in my book, but not for anything I have seen thus far in THIS most recent escapade.
 
i agree

Ivan not to keep pounding your choice into the mud but i have a few questions for you on your decision

I don't have much proof except that it says MITE PHASE WAMENA on the tank
for me this just means the appearance of it and nothing more then what it said on the tank.Now had it said this was "gentic , poss het for mite phase etc" then we have a different ballgame to play in

i do not like that neil doubled his money at my expense.
In buisness everything is marked up and more then not its 100%-200% mark-up unless its advertised as "at cost or below" cost is the actual price the seller would pay for a item retail is the price the seller asks for a item

I was very aggravated when my friends were felt misleaded
I can sympathize with you on that theres nothing worse then feeling you were taken , robbed , jipped... but to this not being mean when you are making a purchase by all mean two things to remember ( ifyou make it you need to be educated on what you buy-if someone else does the deal for you like your friends made the judgment it sounds they better know there stuff or atleast the right questions to ask)

If i were to know exactly what it was i would have bought 2 of them from Kevin and then i would have made neil a fair offer so he could of made a good profit say $200 or so.If he would of refused that offer i would of been ok with it and got another one from Kevin
Here is where education comes in or knowing the questions to ask such as " is this gentic" WHO BRED IT .... if the answer was yes its gentic then go back to who bred it and ask them if it is in fact genetic for "mite phase" if they tell you know or then blow your question off then i would walk away from the deal plain and simple at that point the question in my opinion desrves to be answered from the person who bred it as it was there animal and if someone is misrepresenting there animal as such it could have a effect on them down the road in one way or another.Personally from what your above quote says i if being you would have bought from Kevin from the get go and got my 3 snakes and went home and been happy.

I was avoided and i only have one snake.I would have been much less of a fool with 2-3 snakes.
this is the classic "buyers remorse"




Back to the price Neil sold it to you at ... if i buy one Albino pair pay $3k and breed them and then have say 10 albino babies would i be expected to sale the babies for $500.00 to only make $5k off my efforts ? no i would still sell each baby at a minimal $1k therfore making my profit margin $7k ontop of my hets sold would add up a few hundred more or possibly a few thousand depending on the number of babies in the litter. When you start paying good $ for stock you have to know what your doing/dealing with and that way you know what you pay for ....
as stated unless Neil told you it was something more then just a " Mite Phase Wamena" then i see nothing really out of line with his doing what he did ...
 
Well, well, well...... as all of you who read this regularly neil is my best friend...... just like the sun rose in the west this morning.

Ivan, if you can recall exactly what neil told you about that snake then please post it here. If he did not mis-represent it as something it is not then he did no wrong here. If he actually said it WAS a mite phase snake when that is not proven then you have a case for being irritated at him. But, if your sole problem with him is what he charged you for that snake you are, man I hate to say it, out of line.

The profit a man, or someone like neil makes, is no ones business but the guy making the price.

Do your homework yourself next time and don't rely on your friends. Passing the buck is not cool.

If the cage actally had Mite Phase written on it, then yes, I could see where you may have thought it was a proven bloodline and would not be surprised at all to hear that neil said it was. If he didn't say that though, in just about so many words, you simply made a mistake. Did you or did you not buy the snake without asking a single question about the snake to neil?

You really need to post more facts here, be they good or bad for you. I don't really care who you or anyone else will answer to someday, I am interested in what happened over the weekend so let's just stick to the facts as you know them.

Wes Pollock
 
Any way you could post a pic of the snake? There are enough people here who've seen Emeralds and know a bit about the market for them to comment on it. Are you sure you're not just peeved 'cuz ya missed an awesome deal from Kevin and just got a beauty at market value from Neil?
 
Here is the pic:
 

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Thanks to all who have posted their thoughts and/or support. The opinion of our peers and colleagues with respect to our business prinicples is important to us.

A few comments have been made in this thread which require clarification on our part.

Neil,
There was never a representation by either Charlotte or myself of "mite phase" coloration becoming evident in this neonate. Again, although the sire exhibits this trait, it is not a known or proven genetic trait in our collection. We did discuss at length the onset of the ontogenetic color change found in green tree neonates and showed examples of different clutchmates who have developed more rapidly and are entering this change now.

Ivan,
The clutch information is found on our "available" page. This includes pip date, a description, price and the average neonate hatch weight and was updated last on the 18th of October

The insinuation that we avoided you or your questions and were somehow in collusion with Neil is insulting. Your quasi apology while simultaneously inferring we had a hand in something unethical is not well received and is patently false. Not until after your transaction with Neil had we heard of, or about you, and I would think we would remember a person inquiring about that particular animal after its sale. Furthermore, when the "not significant other" explained about your transaction, and although it wasn't our responsibilty, we offered a sibling at the same lower rate Neil was charged with the intention of defraying your investment cost to a more amenable level. While on the subject of price, we hope you realize that the price we paid for the sire to your animal was considerably more than your cost in the hopes that the coloration wouldn't fade as it often does in highland animals.

Our philosophy concerning our transactions, conversations, show presentation or any other facet of our business is to attempt to have all parties leave feeling enriched. This encompasses hour long conversations with the newest members of our community contemplating purchasing their first snake to all night debates with other professional breeders on incubation techniques, locality data or breeding trials. We'd like nothing better than for every person we deal with at any level to feel and share our enthusiasm for boas and pythons and reptiles in general. Additionally, we work hard at giving back to this community whether thru donations to the herp societies, networking with others when invasive legislation surfaces, developing "small breeder" quarantine protocol in conjunction with PIJAC, or simply giving healthy, easy to maintain bci to the youngest budding herpers. We would NEVER knowingly dismiss ANYONE who approaches our table and honestly cannot remember even speaking with you at all.

Having said that, if in fact we in any way slighted you, I would like to be the first to offer a sincere apology and we honestly hope that you are genuinely happy with the caliber of the animal you received.
 
It dont get no better then that ....

Kevin i must say that you have a well rounded mindset.i have never done any buisness with you but i must say i would think from you last post that you would have to be " one helluva nice guy" to do it with. if only the rest of the herping community had just a tad of the inclination that you showed with that post this BOI would be a obsolete dinosaur lol ...
 
sibling Wamena

This animal is a sibling to and very closely approximates the color of the neonate purchased by Ivan. Sorry for the poor quality of the picture. It was snapped under duress.

Hopefully this thread can now die its natural death.

PS Thanks Alan
 

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Darin Chappell said:
I have purchased corns for as low as $6 and then resold them to pet stores for $18. That works out to a 200% profit margin. That was acceptable to me. It's called business, guys.

When I ran a store.. I would buy them at 18 dollars.. then sell them for 49.99 and up with no troubles. The best easy markup was ball pythons. Would pay 7 dollars a piece from an importer...then sell them for 79.99 in less than 2 to 3 days after arriving. When I started to throw in a 10 gallon all-glass as a starter cage (that cost me 6 bucks), some substrate and a water dish.. I might have invested 15 bucks in the snake and enclosure.. and sold them for 100 out the door.. most sold within hours of setting up the enclosure.
 
Originally posted by Darin Chappell
I have purchased corns for as low as $6 and then resold them to pet stores for $18. That works out to a 200% profit margin. That was acceptable to me. It's called business, guys.


That is true, especially for ball pythons, when I buy from people, sure I haggle, but I know I am not going to get their cost, that would be silly of me to think I would. This hobby is for the love of reptiles, but it is also a business. When that snake grows up and has its own, they will sell as well. IMO Neil sold an animal, and a beautiful one at that for what HE thought it was worth, nothing wrong with that.
Again, very nice snakes, and your post was most impressive Kevin. Definitely someone I would consider buying from.
 
Kevin

Kevin that"s cool with me.Had a little trouble understanding what you were triing to say.But i think i get your point.That is all i wanted.I did try the website and i looked and looked and it was just very slow downloading.i spent about three hours triing to find something.I gave up.Which is my fault.I did mean that i am truly sorry for what i said in the original post.It was completly uncalled for and i need to check myself for doing so.I will however except your explanation on why you would not speak with me about the animal.I think enough has been said about it.


To the rest of you WAS I PEAVED CAUSE NEIL GOT A DEAL ON A SNAKE THAT I MISSED OUT ON?Yes i'm sure that was part of my childish behavior.do i think corn snakes with a 12 dollar profit is a bad deal come on now?Will i apoligize to neil for making a chunk of change off of me.no.Do i feel bad about what i said to Kevin in my original post?Yes.Was i upset with Kevin?Yes.Am i upset with Kevin now?No.I don't believe he intended to keep anything from me from his explanation.Do i need therapy?probably.Do i trust Kevin yes?Do i like his animals?yes,yes,yes.Will i ever buy any of Kevins animals?Only if he lets me and has forgiven me.I have no problem admitting when i'm wrong.rub me all you want.whatever you may think of me i would never let anyone of you down.i would give the shirt off my back to any who asked even neil though i would have to tell neil to launder it before he returned it.this is the way i take care of my buisness.I think i'm a good man and have good morals. i hope you can agree.would i ever mark up a snake like that,Not in this lifetime.Not the way neil did it.does anyone have any more questions?I hope not.

Kevin thank you for responding you gave me what i needed.Please don't make light of my apology It was sincere

Ivan Dochstader
 
Ivan ..

i think that you have done does speak volumes of who you are ... alot of the times when trying to put our thoughts into print esp when we fill the way you did in this circumstance it NEVER comes out the way we want it to and is almost always definately not how something would be handled face to face .. . i think with the way this thread has turned out people will see it for what it really & truely was a mistake on how you worded your feelings . Ican say that me personally wont hold this against you and not that it mattered if i did lol but i think you have learned a great deal in you experience and can only hope the next time your descison will be made with much scrutiny and less haste in making your desiscion ... keep your chin up and good luck with that Awsome looking animal
 
thanks alen

thank you alan and you are exactly right.it's hard to put your feelings into words sometimes when your upset.sometimes it is read differently than what you might have intended.Yes i have learned a big lesson.I need to go early friday and talk to Kevin for now on.Just kidding.thanks for the kind words and he is a great animal isn't he.

Ivan Dochstader
 
I'm not here to defend anyone....just state facts. We were right next to Neil during the show. I was quite busy but was aware of the sales going on next to us.(It was a little slow) James came up to Neil and made an offer on the GTP. Neil accepted it. I did not hear the whole conversation but I did hear Neil say"....I don't know what it will look like as an adult..." I do have to say that I was considering making an offer on it myself. (Knockout! Great specimen Kevin!) As to any misrepresentation... I was not aware of any. I was filled in on the details of the specimen and knew what I needed to know. I might not have offered as much however, many times I have paid more than"going rate" for a particular specimen that I wanted. I don't agree with many things that have gone on with Neil involved but, I have hate say it.. if anything you have yourself to blame on this one. I still think you got a gorgeous specimen. Paid too much? That depends on how much you wanted it. Glad to see that you retracted the statement against Kevin. I don't see any per say ""Acceptable profit guidelines". It's all a matter of supply, demand and what someone WILL pay. It's only a problem if it is misrepresented in regards to genetics,sex or health. Wish I had more time to shop and see Kevin's table but, we were swamped! Good show.

*P.S. if anyone has not been replied to from us..our computers and systems have been down for the last two weeks. We finally got nailed on all of our systems with a bad virus. Everything should be up and running normal tomorrow. Kind of makes you miss the days of telephones and hand written invoices!!! LOL!

Thanks Ray Goushaw HBR www.herpbreedingresearch.com
 
genetics deal with neil

this has seemed to cause some confusion.I paid neil thats all.I had some friends inquire a few times on the animal.they felt misguided they were upset about it when they found out.they were very upset and felt like i was mistreated.i was calm and cool when I arrived back at the show around closing time.I got part of the story and went to the parking lot to find neil as i noticed him packing up early when i arrived back.He disappeared.I began packing up a friends display.when i was finished.I had them explain to me what exactly happened.What was asked of neil about the animal i don't know.Nor am i gonna interogate my friends any further.one in particular was confident he did ask about the genetics but i told him unless he was absolutely sure it did not need to be said.I was very upset with neil and Kevin.mostly cause my friends were upset.I said some things that were uncalled for and wrong.Neil at this point is not in the wrong as far as that goes .Kevin gave me an acceptable explanation and was very unfairly treated by me.I have dealt with that issue.Neil may not have misled anyone I don't know do i care at this point.I think he made a very large a profit which in my opinion was uncalled for.I could never mark somthing up that much cause i wouldn't feel right about it.He was only out to make a quick buck.He in my opinion doesn't have any love for that animal.Is he a great salesman-probably the best.would i buy a corvette for 120 grand if i knew i could get it for 60.no not unless i got the best customer service on the planet to go along with it.regardless.I was foolish.I was foolish in very many ways.relying on my friends to check out an animal.several other ways i won't bore you and list them all.But all in all i got a great animal.neil has 1200 bucks.Kevin was the only one hurt in this by the very negative phychotic childesh post i made about him and neil.neil i don't think any negative things could ever run him out of buisness.I feel cheated by him.It only has to do with ethics not the animal whether it's worth that much or like neil said up to 5000.


Ivan Dochstader
 
Ivan, I would still like to know what, if anything , neil told you about the snake. Did you buy it without asking any questions?

I got the point that you would not mark up as high as neil did but, that's not really relevant here. What is relevant is whether or not he lied to you. Or to your friends. You have brought it up so please clear it up.

thanks,
Wes Pollock
 
wes

I really don't know for sure.I don't want to call neil a lier as well if in fact he is not.I will try and find out if i can and post it.the confusion came i believe when my friends offered to check it out for me since they are much more experienced than i am about reptiles.They are not into condros so maybe they didn't ask the right questions.i love condros yet know very little about them.I have several.i've triied to learn more but i can't seem to find a lot of material on them.I have several.I'm not sure if they know enough about the mite phase and all that.I'll try and find out though.


Ivan Dochstader
 
Did you ask him any questions and what did he say. Not what did he tell your friends, what was the interaction between the two of you. If you could have your friends post what he said to them that would be good too.

Wes Pollock
 
wes

wes i thought that i was clear about it.I did not speak with neil about it.I simply laid some cash on him and left.I don't really want to involve anybody else.I feel like i can fight my own battles.I understand how you feel.Neil from what i've heard isn't the most trusting sole out there.I was very dumb.If i had the time i would love to read some old threads.I just think that i smeared his name enough for this mild incident.I could never give him my money again.I think i should have given someone a hundred bucks to get the animal for me and to ask the right qquestions.Someone that really knew chondros.then explain to me what it is all about.I will inquire about what was asked but it cannot be anytime real soon.i need to sleep.I'll see tommorro if i can find out anything important.


Ivan Dochstader
 
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