Bad Guy Nicole Norton/Howlinn gale dragons,Bad guy very bad guy.

[Lucille]

What does a person have to do to get kicked off of Fauna?

There is a specific list of enumerated behaviors on the site, the and penalties each behavior carries:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8880

Seems to me, maybe I'm wrong but if you really wanted to do something good start getting rid of the bad breeders on here.

With all due respect I believe you are wrong. First of all, although Ed did go too far and has been banned for a while, the fact that both of them are on the site is a plus for the hobby, because they hung themselves with their own words. By reading this thread we can see the kind of people they really are.

Making Rich and the mods into judge and jury of whether or not a particular breeder is ethical enough to be present on the site exposes them to a lot of liability. There are people here that would and have made false claims about a competitor just to knock them out of the ring.

This is not a nanny site and it is my belief that the kind of people who are here regularly would not be here if it was. Many herp people are strong, independent thinkers and they want the right to make their own choices. We can read the threads here and make our own choices about whether to buy from a certain person or not. I don't want someone else to decide that for me.

If someone comes to this site, home of the BOI, and chooses not to use it and makes an ill advised purchase without reading up on the seller first, then they should bear the weight of any adverse consequences if there was plenty of info to warn them and they did not take the time to read it..

 

[DAND]

What does a person have to do to get kicked off of Fauna? Seems like everything is allowed from Bad business practices to selling sick dragons. Numerous complaints about the dragons they sell and still are allowed to sell animals on here. I don't understand why such people can post anything for sale on fauna with so many complaints is beyond me..

Seems like the BOI is just for the amusement of people that like to read gossip. Seems to me, maybe I'm wrong but if you really wanted to do something good start getting rid of the bad breeders on here. With nowhere to sell they wouldn't be breeding or Killing anything! Just a thought...

There is the Feedback forum here on Fauna that is more suited for your line of "thinking" versus utilizing this BOI thread wouldn't you think?

 

[ReptileJay]

I agree completely that there is absolutely no way it would be possible from a legal standpoint for people to be banned based only questionable ethics. I could only imagine the lawsuits/threats of lawsuits that Rich would have to deal with... Being judge comes with a great deal of responsibility and consequence that I would assume most, if not all of us do not have the time for...

On a more thread related note the constant lies from both parties involved are probably (in my opinion) one of the biggest issues I'm seeing here. If Nicole would have simply refrained from doctoring the truth, I'm pretty sure that she would not have had HALF (likely more) of the problems that are facing her today. There really is nothing gained in hiding the truth except for a reputation as a "liar"... The truth will generally get dug up at some point.

I honestly believe that if she had just been honest about everything (previous threads, etc), provided she coupled that honesty with professionalism, she could have been a respected breeder.

I'm not saying that since there have been proven cases of dishonesty she has NO chance of EVER being taken seriously again, but it WILL take time and extreme effort. It is critical that (provided she WANTS to repair her damaged reputation) she begins valuing honesty and integrity over anything else...

Even great breeders have bad transactions, but they are the ones that stand by their faults, accept blame where it is due, and do everything they can to remedy the situation regardless of the loss they may have to take in the process.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I agree completely that there is absolutely no way it would be possible from a legal standpoint for people to be banned based only questionable ethics. I could only imagine the lawsuits/threats of lawsuits that Rich would have to deal with... Being judge comes with a great deal of responsibility and consequence that I would assume most, if not all of us do not have the time for...

On a more thread related note the constant lies from both parties involved are probably (in my opinion) one of the biggest issues I'm seeing here. If Nicole would have simply refrained from doctoring the truth, I'm pretty sure that she would not have had HALF (likely more) of the problems that are facing her today. There really is nothing gained in hiding the truth except for a reputation as a "liar"... The truth will generally get dug up at some point.

I honestly believe that if she had just been honest about everything (previous threads, etc), provided she coupled that honesty with professionalism, she could have been a respected breeder.

I'm not saying that since there have been proven cases of dishonesty she has NO chance of EVER being taken seriously again, but it WILL take time and extreme effort. It is critical that (provided she WANTS to repair her damaged reputation) she begins valuing honesty and integrity over anything else...

Even great breeders have bad transactions, but they are the ones that stand by their faults, accept blame where it is due, and do everything they can to remedy the situation regardless of the loss they may have to take in the process.

Just like I have never wanted to have any transactions with Ed (and his pictures show some nice BPs), Nicole can't repair anything with me it's not the bad transactions...it's not even the transactions themselves..it's absolutely the way she LIES so much. While everyone else is free to make their own decisions, I am a firm believer in learning from other people's mistakes when possible, there's no need to make the same mistakes myself.

Nicole has lied every time she has been brought to the BOI. She has lied, misrepresented, or defected and twisted the truth in every imaginable way and some I wouldn't imagine. She has TWICE once tried to ruin a reputation; once by herself and once KNOWINGLY assisted another in trying to ruin a competitor's reputation.

She has a way of talking, twisting, presenting stories that do remind me of a pathological liar. Even when there's no need to lie, she has lied (yes, the same can be said of Ed). I see no redeeming qualities in either that would make me want to sell or buy from them. They can have a lot of 'good guy" posts, but I have never been much of a gambler, and I don't play dice at all.

There are enough reputable breeders that haven't presented themselves in the kind of light that Nicole has, therefore, I do not need, want or feel obligated to "give her a chance." If you are looking closely at what is usually typed about Nicole....notice most of those that support, or defend Nicole type "Chance." My opinion is: Go ahead and gamble, it's your money, but I wouldn't be encouraging newbies to buy from her. They can make their own decision after reading the BOI.

Those that do know of the BOI and prefer to take a chance, get no sympathy from me if the "chance" comes up "snake eyes."

 

[ReptileJay]

Just like I have never wanted to have any transactions with Ed (and his pictures show some nice BPs), Nicole can't repair anything with me it's not the bad transactions...it's not even the transactions themselves..it's absolutely the way she LIES so much. While everyone else is free to make their own decisions, I am a firm believer in learning from other people's mistakes when possible, there's no need to make the same mistakes myself.

Nicole has lied every time she has been brought to the BOI. She has lied, misrepresented, or defected and twisted the truth in every imaginable way and some I wouldn't imagine. She has TWICE once tried to ruin a reputation; once by herself and once KNOWINGLY assisted another in trying to ruin a competitor's reputation.

She has a way of talking, twisting, presenting stories that do remind me of a pathological liar. Even when there's no need to lie, she has lied (yes, the same can be said of Ed). I see no redeeming qualities in either that would make me want to sell or buy from them. They can have a lot of 'good guy" posts, but I have never been much of a gambler, and I don't play dice at all.

There are enough reputable breeders that haven't presented themselves in the kind of light that Nicole has, therefore, I do not need, want or feel obligated to "give her a chance." If you are looking closely at what is usually typed about Nicole....notice most of those that support, or defend Nicole type "Chance." My opinion is: Go ahead and gamble, it's your money, but I wouldn't be encouraging newbies to buy from her. They can make their own decision after reading the BOI.

Those that do know of the BOI and prefer to take a chance, get no sympathy from me if the "chance" comes up "snake eyes."

I certainly can't refute anything you're saying there... I've never had or really considered any transactions myself with either Nicole or Ed, nor do I ever expect to (in Ed's case its easier to just cut out the "middle man" and buy directly from the breeder). While I DO enjoy the occasional "game of chance", I won't gamble when it comes to animals... If someone has shown themselves to be a "bad bet" (sick animals, bad customer service, etc.), I avoid doing business with them, simple as that. Ed and Nicole both had MANY "chances" to do the right thing in many situations, and more often than not decided to neglect to do so.

I do believe people are CAPABLE of changing, but also realize that they rarely (if ever) do. Proper action in the future does not ERASE the sins of the past (luckily for everyone the BOI is permanent). However given ample time and devotion to making up for those "sins" and preventing reacurrance at any cost, shouldn't be looked at as pointless.

With the number of times that both parties have been caught in lies, misrepresentation, customer disputes, reputation slamming of GOOD (or otherwise not BAD) people, many would say that they've both made their decisions on how to conduct themselves, and I agree. It is very evident that neither were labeled "BAD GUY" numerous times by false claims made against them. They have both done MORE than enough on their own to EARN that label.

Perhaps years down the road, they will realize that they WERE wrong, and that what people have been telling them for years WAS true... Hopefully when/if that happens they will do the right things to attempt to genuinely better themselves...

 

[HowlinGaleDragons]

Say what you want your empty accusations don't carry weight with me I was THREATENED BY ED over the phone when I told him NOT to use my picture of Tom's thread but you people seem blind to that and have fully ignored that post just play on the others that give you more to Gossip about.

I have tons of people who have emailed me and PMed me over the duration of this BOI who are now comfortable buying from me because Ed is out of the picture I am not the problem here Ed is. You can say I lie all you want because I know I don't.



And so everyone is aware Ed has been calling me giving me the "I dont want to argue with you like this blah blah blah" sappy stories and I have hung up on him every time. He KNOWS he is wrong he KNOWS he has no ownership over Prince and he KNOWS I owe him nothing he is trying to suck up to me and I won't have any part of it.

To me this is Over it is clear Ed is full of it and his rumors of Owed money are false, rumors of prince being his false, and rumors of me having sick dragons clearly very false. I have no more to say he has no leg to stand on and I won't worry anymore about his childish threats.

And saying I am a Bad Breeder is the biggest lie out there I breed awesome healthy dragons and for you to say other wise is disgusting.

I have nothing more to say as the lies Eds has fabricated are clearly false to me this BOI is over.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Say what you want your empty accusations don't carry weight with me I was THREATENED BY ED over the phone when I told him NOT to use my picture of Tom's thread but you people seem blind to that and have fully ignored that post just play on the others that give you more to Gossip about.

I have tons of people who have emailed me and PMed me over the duration of this BOI who are now comfortable buying from me because Ed is out of the picture I am not the problem here Ed is. You can say I lie all you want because I know I don't.



And so everyone is aware Ed has been calling me giving me the "I dont want to argue with you like this blah blah blah" sappy stories and I have hung up on him every time. He KNOWS he is wrong he KNOWS he has no ownership over Prince and he KNOWS I owe him nothing he is trying to suck up to me and I won't have any part of it.

To me this is Over it is clear Ed is full of it and his rumors of Owed money are false, rumors of prince being his false, and rumors of me having sick dragons clearly very false. I have no more to say he has no leg to stand on and I won't worry anymore about his childish threats.

And saying I am a Bad Breeder is the biggest lie out there I breed awesome healthy dragons and for you to say other wise is disgusting.

I have nothing more to say as the lies Eds has fabricated are clearly false to me this BOI is over.

If Ed has threatened you, then this is not the vendue to air that. The police have a procedure called "REPORT THE CRIME." Bringing it here is supposed to achieve what? You are your own worse enemy.

 

[deborahbroadus]

If Ed has threatened you, then this is not the vendue to air that. The police have a procedure called "REPORT THE CRIME." Bringing it here is supposed to achieve what? You are your own worse enemy.

Let me clarify..because you have used that sentence before, and I got confused.

Ok..on the subject of Clarke..if ED had threatened you..the police had a procedure called "REPORT THE CRIME." You did not do that. You kept quiet.

Did you even contact Mr. Clarke to tell him in private? Did you even try and give him some assistance to fight the claim (such as e-mailing him the picture, and he could have said he had it from you some time ago...this is not lying.. )

You did neither, to my knowledge, and happily continued with Ed...so crying wolf at this late date is supposed to accomplish what?

 

[PAVLOVK1025]

Say what you want your empty accusations don't carry weight with me I was THREATENED BY ED over the phone when I told him NOT to use my picture of Tom's thread but you people seem blind to that and have fully ignored that post just play on the others that give you more to Gossip about.

I have tons of people who have emailed me and PMed me over the duration of this BOI who are now comfortable buying from me because Ed is out of the picture I am not the problem here Ed is. You can say I lie all you want because I know I don't.



And so everyone is aware Ed has been calling me giving me the "I dont want to argue with you like this blah blah blah" sappy stories and I have hung up on him every time. He KNOWS he is wrong he KNOWS he has no ownership over Prince and he KNOWS I owe him nothing he is trying to suck up to me and I won't have any part of it.

To me this is Over it is clear Ed is full of it and his rumors of Owed money are false, rumors of prince being his false, and rumors of me having sick dragons clearly very false. I have no more to say he has no leg to stand on and I won't worry anymore about his childish threats.

And saying I am a Bad Breeder is the biggest lie out there I breed awesome healthy dragons and for you to say other wise is disgusting.

I have nothing more to say as the lies Eds has fabricated are clearly false to me this BOI is over.

Id buy from Ed before I ever bought from you. Im just sayin...

 

[ReptileJay]

And saying I am a Bad Breeder is the biggest lie out there I breed awesome healthy dragons and for you to say other wise is disgusting.

Who ever said you were a "bad breeder"??? Your husbandry skills were never brought into question whatsoever (unless I TOTALLY missed something).

None of what has been brought up has anything to do with husbandry, but by the way business has been conducted in the past.

 

[Lucille]

I have nothing more to say

You are one of the biggest drama llamas in recent memory. You've loudly made a dramatic exit at least six or seven times, only to return a few posts later. I'm thinking that no one believes ANYTHING you say based on thread content and your actions and words.

 

[DAND]

You can say I lie all you want because I know I don't.

So misrepresenting animals is not lying? You'll understand that some may have issue with your statement above.

 

[Southern Wolf]

What does a person have to do to get kicked off of Fauna? Seems like everything is allowed from Bad business practices to selling sick dragons. Numerous complaints about the dragons they sell and still are allowed to sell animals on here. I don't understand why such people can post anything for sale on fauna with so many complaints is beyond me..

Seems like the BOI is just for the amusement of people that like to read gossip. Seems to me, maybe I'm wrong but if you really wanted to do something good start getting rid of the bad breeders on here. With nowhere to sell they wouldn't be breeding or Killing anything! Just a thought...

It is my understanding that the reason Rich doesnt boot them for just bad guy posts is because then he would be playing Judge, Jury, and executioner (which he should be allowed to do since he own the site). I think Rich mentioned at one point in time it had to do with possible legal issues...

I do however agree that if someone is found out to be a scammer (100% without question) that they should be booted... but who makes that call... and how do you make that call? I think that is the problem Rich faces.

Personally... I'll just read the threads and place shady people on my "do not do business with" list.

 

[Southern Wolf]

There is a specific list of enumerated behaviors on the site, the and penalties each behavior carries:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8880



With all due respect I believe you are wrong. First of all, although Ed did go too far and has been banned for a while, the fact that both of them are on the site is a plus for the hobby, because they hung themselves with their own words. By reading this thread we can see the kind of people they really are.

Making Rich and the mods into judge and jury of whether or not a particular breeder is ethical enough to be present on the site exposes them to a lot of liability. There are people here that would and have made false claims about a competitor just to knock them out of the ring.

This is not a nanny site and it is my belief that the kind of people who are here regularly would not be here if it was. Many herp people are strong, independent thinkers and they want the right to make their own choices. We can read the threads here and make our own choices about whether to buy from a certain person or not. I don't want someone else to decide that for me.

If someone comes to this site, home of the BOI, and chooses not to use it and makes an ill advised purchase without reading up on the seller first, then they should bear the weight of any adverse consequences if there was plenty of info to warn them and they did not take the time to read it..

She said it a little better than I did

 

[Southern Wolf]

Say what you want your empty accusations don't carry weight with me I was THREATENED BY ED over the phone when I told him NOT to use my picture of Tom's thread but you people seem blind to that and have fully ignored that post just play on the others that give you more to Gossip about.

I have tons of people who have emailed me and PMed me over the duration of this BOI who are now comfortable buying from me because Ed is out of the picture I am not the problem here Ed is. You can say I lie all you want because I know I don't.



And so everyone is aware Ed has been calling me giving me the "I dont want to argue with you like this blah blah blah" sappy stories and I have hung up on him every time. He KNOWS he is wrong he KNOWS he has no ownership over Prince and he KNOWS I owe him nothing he is trying to suck up to me and I won't have any part of it.

To me this is Over it is clear Ed is full of it and his rumors of Owed money are false, rumors of prince being his false, and rumors of me having sick dragons clearly very false. I have no more to say he has no leg to stand on and I won't worry anymore about his childish threats.

And saying I am a Bad Breeder is the biggest lie out there I breed awesome healthy dragons and for you to say other wise is disgusting.

I have nothing more to say as the lies Eds has fabricated are clearly false to me this BOI is over.

If Ed was threatening you then you should have reported it to the police. The fact that both of you are in two different states doesn't help your position either.

The fact that you kept quiet why Ed tried to tarnish Tom tells everyone here about your integrity and ethics. The fact that you manulipated photos to enhance the color on your dragons that were for sale tells everyone here about your integrity and ethics.

Suck it up... tell the truth... and attempt to get on the right track. The truth shall set you free.

Here is another thought.... let the calls go to voice mail. If its your mom call her back. It really is that easy.

 

[deborahbroadus]

You are one of the biggest drama llamas in recent memory. You've loudly made a dramatic exit at least six or seven times, only to return a few posts later. I'm thinking that no one believes ANYTHING you say based on thread content and your actions and words.

You got that right!

Considering the fact that Nicole and Ed are in different states (according to an earlier post) it's likely that the "threat" wasn't against her life, but ....wait for it...




TO TELL THE REAL STORY ABOUT NICOLE IF SHE DIDN'T HELP HIM (perhaps Ed was even going to let us know about how she lied to ruin a customer's reputation...prove her skills on the computer....etc. Ed is a liar without peer..but I tend to think he's telling the truth when he said:

1. Nicole is very good with computers.
2. Nicole is very good with Photobucket.
3. Nicole is a pathological liar.

It is too bad that since the story is coming from ED, himself, then it is as tainted as Nicole's convoluted attempts to defend herself against the story.

 

[AndreaH]

I do agree with you on that statement and it was very well put Deborah.

 

[Helenthereef]

MMM
(Made my Monday)

 

[Iraqvet]

Wow,,I was gone all weekend and missed alot!!I guess since this is a thread on Nicole,I will keep it about her..Now Nicole, why dont yoy go ahead and ATTEMPT to show us you are NOT what people claim..So without DUCKING my QUESTIONS please ANSWER them....1- why do you photoshop?...2- why do you think thats not wrong?..3- why do you think you can say you dont,when its been proven you do?...4-why cant you tell the truth,,ever?...5- why cant you just be a decent person and do the right thing?...If you dont answer these,it shows people you dont care cause you dont ever feel like you need to explain yourself..I will probably keep quoting them til you answer,,for once..And for the topic about who owes who...Well,they both owe ALOT OF PEOPLE ANYWAYS..I say what goes around comes around..I could care less if Ed showed up and took all her dragons,and went to jail..People would benefit from these two not being able to breed..If I had 10 thumbs,they would get a ten thumbs down..But I dont..So they would both get a single finger up in person...

 

[Iraqvet]

Wow,,I was gone all weekend and missed alot!!I guess since this is a thread on Nicole,I will keep it about her..Now Nicole, why dont yoy go ahead and ATTEMPT to show us you are NOT what people claim..So without DUCKING my QUESTIONS please ANSWER them....1- why do you photoshop?...2- why do you think thats not wrong?..3- why do you think you can say you dont,when its been proven you do?...4-why cant you tell the truth,,ever?...5- why cant you just be a decent person and do the right thing?...If you dont answer these,it shows people you dont care cause you dont ever feel like you need to explain yourself..I will probably keep quoting them til you answer,,for once..And for the topic about who owes who...Well,they both owe ALOT OF PEOPLE ANYWAYS..I say what goes around comes around..I could care less if Ed showed up and took all her dragons,and went to jail..People would benefit from these two not being able to breed..If I had 10 thumbs,they would get a ten thumbs down..But I dont..So they would both get a single finger up in person...

Nicole????..You could respond to Ed's thread,but couldnt answer my 5 questions from above..??..I would love to go to a show you attend and play robin hood and take all your dragons from there..I would give them to better breeders who wouldnt use them to scam people and rip them off..I bet the dragons would like that as well..You need to answer the questions Nicole and stop playing dumb..You want people to feel bad for you,but no one cares..You are a person who treats others like dirt then you get madd cause people say bad things about you.Your situation with Ed proves their is no honor amongst thieves.Then when people try to find out why you lie,you just deny it all???,,Way to be mature!!..Everything has been proven,and you still wont come clean..Yet you want people to look past all that??Heck no,,we are not a bunch of idiots here..Again,show the pm's where people say they will buy from you??..If they dont want you to,then what does that say about your bottom shelf reputation??