One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

[CheriS]

I apologize up front to everyone that is sick of seeing this going on in a thread that should be about the animals, but these things keep getting thrown out here that are far from the facts and rosy picture someone is determined to paint

Vicki said Word spread quietly and we were contacted directly by people who were interested in offering us animals. Consequently, we had positives in that facility the first week of January to work with. Where do you think those people got the word from?

I responded to their emails when they contacted me because they were positive and concerned what they would do with the babies and finding places for them. I told them first to try and find home for the infected ones (telling the people up front they were positive), some of them I helped with finding homes, private and public ones, where they are also monitored by professionals. The others were told the following through December and you can see the date on this one that went to the person who did contact you and send some to you... those ones you had in your facility the first week in January... from another breeder.

----- Original Message -----
From: cheri
To:
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: cheri

if you can not place the positive ones in homes, Vicki Dachiu has asked about gettting some positive ones that appeared healthy since her and Rob were thinking about housing some to study long term effects, so you might want to talk to her.

And I know they contacted you and send some to you... so much for your comment of me turning my back... gues you are wrong again!

When I replied to your email in November, I said I not think you needed positive ones with my help, you should already have acess to plenty, without my help. Read what I said, I know you understand it You also never said anywhere in email to me the rest of that paragraph that you have now added under your quote about wanting animals from others so no one could claim that any of the testing was done with bias. People think you are bias already, no matter where any positive dragons you test come from and do not trust you to be honest about anything with this. Sorry, that is a fact for BOTH you and me, that is why I would never attempt to personally do any test and told you that. I have always endorsed fund raising to have professionals do them which you have tried real hard to even drive them off, who knows maybe you did succeed in that and the ones that were interested in more studies will never do them now. Personally I think they would be crazy to step into this mess and I know some agree on that point too. That is not a new opinion this year either. It's the animals that lose all the way around without controlled and scientific studies by pros that do not have a personal agenda in this.

For the records, Sandfire Ranch to the best if my knowledge has never had any or sold any adeno positive dragons or had any reported coming from them to owners or other breeders. Neither has Kevin Dunne either before working with them or since. I said it has been discussed often by many people if they inbred dragons knowingly and that is a factor on the breeder's network, if what Josh stated is true and inbreeding trans was done at their direction, it answered that questons. If that is the case (and I do not know it is) yes, the network would be edited, as that is one of the agreements that breeders committ to when they join it and promise not to do. But that has nothing to do with any report of them selling any adeno positive dragons as there never have been any such thing in all the time any data was collected and I have never said that. I could swear you have asked this many times befoere and been told the same things each time.

 

[trapieter]

ok... I've got to the stage now where I am filtering through the posts becasue I am simply not wanting to read anything argumentative. I agree that these arguments should be taken off the thread and into pms but I feel that someone feels the need to keep them on the thread to keep power to the post. I bet there are plenty other just filtering through to the bits that count to them and leaving out the arguments so really .. no one cares. Deal with the problem at hand, answer the questions. Be professional and civil with one another and respect each others opinions without a battle. You seem professional enough to have the info this is a public thread, keep it as such. other wise slag it out in the hell room.

it was mentioned about crix and worms eating faecal matter and so not really being able to keep husbandry 100% effective? feed them in another box/ tub away from the viv or contain the crix in the viv same with the worms. I dont have mine running around eating poo. there are ways around it.

sorry Im going to have to come back to this my beardies what attention lol brb

 

[mikey]

I apologize up front to everyone that is sick of seeing this going on in a thread that should be about the animals

Apology accepted, Cheri



That aside, I am interested in seeing/hearing the results as you all continue to test, as I hope you will all test repeatly. And when Dachiu has enough data collected from their testing, I hope they feel they can share what they have learned also. Maybe see if this thread can become a sticky, so it will not disappear ?

 

[Tere Salazar]

Maybe see if this thread can become a sticky, so it will not disappear ?

How about not. No offense, Jean, but I really don't want to see this thread every time I come in here. I do appreciate all the information that has been discussed. However...this has been very painful for our family, and I'm sure anyone else who's been in this position would say the same thing.

 

[whiskersmom]

Apology accepted, Cheri



That aside, I am interested in seeing/hearing the results as you all continue to test, as I hope you will all test repeatly. And when Dachiu has enough data collected from their testing, I hope they feel they can share what they have learned also. Maybe see if this thread can become a sticky, so it will not disappear ?

This is so childish.

Tere, I'm so sorry that this thread has come to this. I can't imagine your anguish over this whole ordeal, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

 

[Tere Salazar]

This is so childish.

Tere, I'm so sorry that this thread has come to this. I can't imagine your anguish over this whole ordeal, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Well, when the discussions were productive, I didn't have a problem seeing this thread all day, every day. I figured if that's what it took to get the word out, then so be it. But now that it's become little more than a war zone, and is far from productive, those feelings have changed.

My intention with this thread was NOT to create a war, but with hopes of working with others for the benefit of all of our animals.

 

[mikey]

I am sorry for you both, Tere and Wendy, and for anyone else who has gone thru this. We just need to agree to disagree, until the studies and testing have definate answers and hopefully a solution that everyone will follow. I do hope you put up the progress of your babies with the study info you are doing on your website. And I did try to do my small part and sent money for research. For anything else, maybe the bickering did get people's attention to see there needs to be much more done on adenovirus. For good or bad there will probably be more heated debates on this subject to come. But I did learn different views, that some continued testing is being done, and a ton of great reference material to review and share. Peace Out

 

[trapieter]

tere you didn't create a war zone with this thread, what you did was brave and good and your purpose was to benefit others. there are very good parts to this thread which have been very productive in putting peoples heads together for raising money and other ideas, we can't discount it all. I think if you wanted this thread to get back on track it would be a case of focusing on one goal or even moving to a new thread with that goal in mind to prevent the past being dragged up from this post.

you were getting some where and were on a roll, don't let someone ruin your party tere take it else where how are those pms going? you collecting alot of info and things? are people gathering the info from you?

I apologise for sounding a bit harsh earlier I have a large bout of PMT lmao it's been a while hahha forgot what it was like... quick get the chocolate in!

 

[Tere Salazar]

how are those pms going? you collecting alot of info and things? are people gathering the info from you?

Actually, no. I'm not able to do a whole lot until the hubby gets back. Things have been a bit hectic as of late. And to be honest, I've had very few inquiries for the Adeno research donation instructions. Let's just suffice it to say that it's all been fairly disheartening.

For those of you who have requeted the donation instructions, thank you. We plan on doing our part on payday, and my hope is that several others will do the same. Whether we agree on nothing else, we do all agree that research needs to be done, and there's only one way to get there, folks.

I also think Karen has a good plan, and that is to start keeping records on your own experiences, so that if it ever came down to it, you would have that to offer for research purposes.

 

[Neverland Dragons]

Tere, I think that this thread has brought attention to the importance of testing for adenovirus. I think that the exchanges were bound to happen because of the differing views on the virus and how it affects our dragons.

I want to point out that I was not the first to come forward with the problem of adenovirus. I went through the archives on KingSnake, because I was curious as to why there has not been anything done prior to our situation. Yes, I did come forward, but adenovirus is not a new issue for bearded dragons. There was a woman Suzanne, who posted in 2002, but the archives only go back to 2003, so I could not see exactly what she said. Her animals were the ones that Dr. Wentz studied.

I also found posts by Robert Wood in 2003. He had adenovirus wipe out his colony. He shared his experience in hopes of letting people know about this virus and preventing this from happening to others. Sadly, by the time I started purchasing dragons in 2004 I did not hear anything about adenovirus.

Hopefully this time it will stay out in the open and information will be gained and steps will be taken to try and control the spread of adenovirus. I do not think that Tere will be the last breeder to post that they have positive dragons. I think the more people come forward and share their experiences, the more we will learn about this virus and ultimately how to control it within the bearded dragon population. While we may disagree on how to get there, I do think we all have that common goal, and that is a good thing.

 

[Tere Salazar]

I apologize. I think I probably shouldn't have posted when I did...and to make matters worse, I wasn't very clear.

I think we do all have common interests in mind. We all want answers, even though the questions from each of us are different. I think this thread has been valuable in the respect that we are all asking those questions in attempts to get answers, rather than sitting back and doing nothing. Quite possibly, if the questioning had continued several years ago, when this was last an issue, none of us with positive animals would be sitting where we are today. I'm NOT aiming that at any one person, so please don't take it that way. Because of that, I do feel it's important to continue questioning, researching and trying to get those answers we all desire.

At that same time, though...this is a time when we all have to work together (whether we like it or not) to reach that common goal. The general view of everyone cover their own butt is probably another contributing factor to the reason things are the way they are now. Again, NOT aimed at any one person...just a general observation. When there is excessive fighting in our community, we are going to have a much harder time working together, which obviously means we are going to have a much harder time reaching our common goal.

I would love nothing more than to see this thread be a place where we can all productively contribute, question and research, without feeling like we're just going to get slapped down if we do. In my opinion, the personal attacks are just not productive and only serve to drive us all further apart from each other, when this is when we most need to work together.

Hopefully, that clears things up a bit.

 

[trapieter]

I've been nosey and had a look at those who have a link to there sites on there names in this thread. Why? I just thought it would be interesting to see which breeders have mention to the adenovirus on their site.

neverland dragons..wendy. love it a whole page of her experiences and the importance of testing dragons. very informative.

saladragons... tere. you have some beautiful dragons glad you decided to keep them and I like what you are doiing with your site. it will be very informative to the public and other breeders when complete.


denisebeme.. nice site like your info and care sheets and your caring attitutude towards beardies but nothing about adeno... maybe you can mention it along with the bit on blood lines and it's importance.

dachiu.. great pictures you have lots of beardies! quite a few trans aswell... what is the main difference between them I can't really tell. great range and care sheets too plus the six wk gaurentee.. but nothing I could see directly about adeno accept the bit saying that your available beardies hadn't been tested for it along with the other tests... does that mean yet or wont be? as a buyer that would confuse me. nice variety of beardies though.


My point is I THINK it is important to utilise what we already have. most breeders have sites already, what would it take to put a note on adeno in there somewhere and to state whether yours had been tested or not? ok most wont be keen on that but I think people will be asking now anyway.
but if you have the info there for people to be able to look for the signs even if it is there to put them off other breeders and petstores fine it all helps educate. NO NAMES LOL that would be great. or just put in a link to here or reptile rooms for more info on it.

I shouldn't go on breeders sites lol it's temptation

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I don't keep dragons~ so I just skimmed the thread rather than reading it all the way through. I'll read more carefully if I ever decide to purchase a dragon.

It really is comendable that so many of you are responsible enough to test for this virus and stop breeding for it despite the obvious losses if a dragon tests positive.

If the lady in Rancho Cucamonga is still looking for a local reptile vet~ the one in Riverside you heard about is probably Dr. Bart (thats the name he goes by~ he has some weird last name I don't know) he is actually in Corona. Phone number is 951-493-6771

 

[CheriS]

Hey Cheryl,

Thanks for posting the info on the vet in your area, I knew it was a strange name. but could not remember it either, with the phone number now they can find him.

I always thought it was strange you have dragon in your name, but no dragon for sell... until I check you site out last year and realized were the dragon part came from

 

[mikey]

I've been nosey and had a look at those who have a link to there sites on there names in this thread. Why? I just thought it would be interesting to see which breeders have mention to the adenovirus on their site.

Sundial Reptile does mention adenovirus in their caresheet. Which I think is a great first step. Many people do not buy dragons off the internet, but they do search for care info and do read many different caresheets. Getting the info on as many as possible and getting people to start asking questions, including testing info, would help in my opinion. Like Wendy said she never even heard about this virus while putting her breeding group together. Threads get buried, caresheets don't.

http://www.sundialreptile.com/caresheets.htm

 

[Denisebme]

I don't keep dragons~ so I just skimmed the thread rather than reading it all the way through. I'll read more carefully if I ever decide to purchase a dragon.

It really is comendable that so many of you are responsible enough to test for this virus and stop breeding for it despite the obvious losses if a dragon tests positive.

If the lady in Rancho Cucamonga is still looking for a local reptile vet~ the one in Riverside you heard about is probably Dr. Bart (thats the name he goes by~ he has some weird last name I don't know) he is actually in Corona. Phone number is 951-493-6771

Thank you Cheryl, that is the guy!!!

 

[Denisebme]

I've been nosey and had a look at those who have a link to there sites on there names in this thread. Why? I just thought it would be interesting to see which breeders have mention to the adenovirus on their site.

neverland dragons..wendy. love it a whole page of her experiences and the importance of testing dragons. very informative.

saladragons... tere. you have some beautiful dragons glad you decided to keep them and I like what you are doiing with your site. it will be very informative to the public and other breeders when complete.


denisebeme.. nice site like your info and care sheets and your caring attitutude towards beardies but nothing about adeno... maybe you can mention it along with the bit on blood lines and it's importance.

dachiu.. great pictures you have lots of beardies! quite a few trans aswell... what is the main difference between them I can't really tell. great range and care sheets too plus the six wk gaurentee.. but nothing I could see directly about adeno accept the bit saying that your available beardies hadn't been tested for it along with the other tests... does that mean yet or wont be? as a buyer that would confuse me. nice variety of beardies though.


My point is I THINK it is important to utilise what we already have. most breeders have sites already, what would it take to put a note on adeno in there somewhere and to state whether yours had been tested or not? ok most wont be keen on that but I think people will be asking now anyway.
but if you have the info there for people to be able to look for the signs even if it is there to put them off other breeders and petstores fine it all helps educate. NO NAMES LOL that would be great. or just put in a link to here or reptile rooms for more info on it.

I shouldn't go on breeders sites lol it's temptation

Thank you. I have been working on the website to update it with Adeno information, but I don't have it ready to upload yet. I can be a little bit backlogged on the web page, and I didn't want to even start working on it until I had my test results back because I had no idea until they did if I was going to continue breeding or if I was going to shut everything down.
I have a page going up that will give all the information I have on Adeno, but I'll admit right now that it is written from my perspective, and I have a strong bias towards testing.

 

[trapieter]

Sundial Reptile does mention adenovirus in their caresheet. Which I think is a great first step. Many people do not buy dragons off the internet, but they do search for care info and do read many different caresheets. Getting the info on as many as possible and getting people to start asking questions, including testing info, would help in my opinion. Like Wendy said she never even heard about this virus while putting her breeding group together. Threads get buried, caresheets don't.

http://www.sundialreptile.com/caresheets.htm

hi mikey, as I said I was just checking people from the thread who had a website so didn't see sundialrep. you are right, these threads will be buried but care sheets will always be searched for. I just think that people look on these sites when thinking of which dragons they would like along with the search for care sheets and so something should be placed with the sellers aswell within care sheets or a link for the reason you have put above for it is my point also.. get the info out and get people to start asking those important questions. I'm not going to go through everyones sites... it was just a small test example of those on the thread just think it would be something small for people to do that would probably make more impact than you know on buyers and those thinking of breeding

jojo xx

 

[Denisebme]

I just wanted to jump in here with another thing I learned just yesterday.
We do some rescue work and occasionally get a sick animal in to take care of. Yesterday morning I got a sick desert tortoise and had to make an unexpected emergency trip to my vet because I know pretty much nothing about sick desert tortoises. I had a chance to sit around for a little while after her office hours were over and she filled me in on one thing I didn't know.
In most states now, there are laws that regulate selling animals that might be sick or even carrying something that might make them sick. The short version of this is that in this state, you can be held responsible for selling any animal that carries a virus a disease that makes that animal sick or infects other animals. The exception in reptiles of course are naturally occuring parasites. You can not knowingly sell an animal that is sick because of parasites, but since they are naturally occuring, there has to be evidence that the animal was sold sick.
One of the arguments I've heard here, and presented to my vet, is that some people don't have easy access to a herp vet, but they have beautiful, thriving, healthy animals. If they breed these animals without testing and unknowingly pass Adeno on to others, what is their responsibility?
Her answer was pretty clear. The breeder can be held responsible, even if they don't know. Not only for refunding the sale price of the animal in question, but for vet bills for that animal and any animal that came into contact with that one if the owner decided to test or had veterinary issues with another animal as a direct result of the virus or illness.
She said that she has seen this a lot with IBD in boids, and as a vet, when she gets a new owner in with an obviously sick animal, she actually encourages them to contact the breeder or petstore to cover the bills, and if they are not responsive, to seek legal recourse. Not because she likes lawsuits, but she feels that in some cases, the only way to stop a petstore or breeder from infecting other animals is to hold them financially responsible for the results.

 

[trapieter]

Thank you. I have been working on the website to update it with Adeno information, but I don't have it ready to upload yet. I can be a little bit backlogged on the web page, and I didn't want to even start working on it until I had my test results back because I had no idea until they did if I was going to continue breeding or if I was going to shut everything down.
I have a page going up that will give all the information I have on Adeno, but I'll admit right now that it is written from my perspective, and I have a strong bias towards testing.

you must have just pipped me to the post or I would have asnwered yours at the same time as mikey. I understand completely if you are awaiting results (I feel poo now ) , so I apologise for that. On the flip side (of your response) I do think it is great that you are updating it with adeno info either way. I don't really see that their is too much wrong with a personal perspective, we can all go and get information that has been passed on and added to in a cold fashion but only those that have been in your postion and that of wendy and tere can explain what it actually feels like to be put in that place. and even in professional scripts they tend to put in evidence that follows thier opinion and backs it up so it is not completly unbiased... I think you have seen that this month on this thread.

what is your standpoint... you agree with testing obviously as you are having yours tested? As long as it provides helpful information no probs and no warning needed. it is your site.

we are all here to support you may you need it when those results come in ok
you've done the right thing.

And why are their no affectionate smilies on this forum???

anyway this is a hug lol ><

jojo xx