Reptster.com experience with show sponsorship not good

[crotalusadamanteus]

How about screen capture?

 

[Southern Wolf]

I think she is just trying to verify the content... I know some had asked if she originally quoted 250 and that was the reason for the XXX's

 

[crix-n-wiggles]

I normally don't get involved in conflicts like this because in my opinion, right or wrong, all parties suffer damage in the end. However since my name has appeared I will say this, A few weeks ago I spoke with Kelly concerning another matter and asked how things were progressing with the show. She told me that she had made an agreement with David as far as sponsorship and was very excited about it. I had heard of Reptster but since I am Fed Ex approved to ship reptiles I hadn't given them much thought. She proceeded to convince me of the benefits and since I had been trying to find some competitive pricing for shipping a large amount of superworms to a customer in the northeast I decided to check them out. In the mean time a couple of guys named Gustave and Ike delayed this. When I did try to check the site I mispelled it (repster) and got a site that wouldn't open. I called Kelly and told her, and it just happened that she was preparing to make the first post concerning this matter. Even with everything going on she still pointed me in the right direction. I am glad now that I waited to watch this all progress to make a decision.

Mike Stites
crix-n-wiggles.com

 

[Seamus Haley]

Mr. Haley,
I am going to try to keep this in order.

1. Even if it is Mr. Young’s right to withdraw from this sponsorship he did NOT. Even after this was all posted Mr. Young still as of right now has yet to contact US in any way to “cancel” his sponsorship. Completely ceasing communication is not withdrawing or cancelling a sponsorship.

He did. On this very thread. Prior to the date of the show. Prior to recieving some of the services he had originally requested.

2. As far as the itemized list, well Mr. Young agreed to pay for a sponsorship level, and this level had a list of thing he would be getting for it, which Kelly has already touched on, so I am not going to waste anyone’s time on this again.

I don't think it's a waste of time at all... One of the cornerstones of your contention of wrongdoing was the fact that you had paid out of pocket expenses related to that specific sponsorship. Since you apparantly did not have the foresight to write up a set of terms and conditions for the services you intended to render, I would like to know exactly how much you have lost and how much he owes you.

His conduct was deplorable, his lack of communication reprehensible, his attitude abominable. However, he was going to be paying a five hundred dollar difference to have someone present at his table acting as his agent since he would not be there himself. Obviously that isn't going to happen, it's not a service that will be delivered, there's that right off the top of the amount he owes. His table space itself has been earmarked for another purpose, he won't be using it and you (apparantly, please correct me if I am wrong) never set out a list of terms regarding cancellations, notice of cancellations or deposits. There's a table fee he doesn't owe. The promotional materials listed his business along with the details of the show itself- did they list any other vendors as well? If so, those out of pocket promotional costs aren't entirely his responsibility, they need to be split between all the endeavors mentioned, either equally or in a manner directly related to the prominence of the logos and business names. You ran a banner ad for him on a website, how much do you charge for that independant of the sponsership? Do you have a set price for that service based on duration or impressions? Do you have a maximum number of advertisers you will add to the rotation in order to ensure that all your advertisers recieve fair exposure? Did you deny other prospective advertisers a slot as a result of the advertisements made for Reptster?

As far as I can tell, and the reason I asked for the information rather than pointing out this assumption, all you are actually out is the fractional cost of some photocopies (that you're still distributing because they have the information relating to the show and other promoters) and the time spent dealing with one aggrivating moron customer. You never delivered the full services that had been discussed so he can't possibly OWE the full price. I'd like to know how much he actually DOES owe.

I also want to state that as far as your questions go, I cannot really list anything piece by piece, because we feel that by doing this it would release private and confidential information regarding our other sponsors. I am sorry but I will in no way jeopardize anyone’s information on sponsorship that has completed there part of our agreement. All I will say is that our agreements with our sponsors may vary from sponsor to sponsor, and therefore it cannot be assumed that costs involved for advertising Mr. Young are to affect or have any relationship with our other agreements.

I'm going to take that to mean you're out thirty bucks for photocopies that you're still using, have no set pricing standards, will gouge anyone for as much as you think you can get away with when they talk to you and don't want to reveal how little you have actually spent because it will sound like much less of a travesty than the $750 figure you have been throwing around.

As I said... Theft is theft and he could have stolen a single penny from you and still been in the wrong. That doesn't make it right to demand more from him than you are actually owed just because you have public support on your side and can get away with it. Your attempts to collect payment for services you never rendered are just as dirty and just as thieving as his attempt to not pay you.

Write up some terms so this doesn't happen in the future. Create a clear schedule for payment and a clear pricing structure for individual or packaged services you intend to offer. Write into your terms some sort of deposit structure to protect yourself, even if the deposit structure is 100% up front payment with no prorated refunds based on customer withdrawl.

And have the decency to demand what you're actually owed, not a fictional number based on services you never delivered and never will.

 

[dragonsr#1]

I just went onto reptster.com to find out if our account was closed yet or not, and I found it has not yet. From there I went to the "contact us" page to ask them again to remove us. I have found that the submit button does not work. Is there anyone else who has had this problem? Just so that all know I did try this on both firefox and IE with no luck on either.

Matthew Kordek

 

[shrap]

Excellent post Seamus. We are indeed on the same page.

 

[Cat_72]

I'm going to take that to mean you're out thirty bucks for photocopies that you're still using, have no set pricing standards, will gouge anyone for as much as you think you can get away with when they talk to you and don't want to reveal how little you have actually spent because it will sound like much less of a travesty than the $750 figure you have been throwing around.

Seamus,

While I definitely agree with the basic idea behind your previous post, I do have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. Perhaps Kelly and Matt have not put out a huge amount of money with printing flyers, etc., but a portion of the payment due to them is for the time they have invested in advertising and such for Reptster. Were there any sort of design fees involved with making the flyers? I don't know. Do they put more of their own money into hurriedly trying to have them redesigned to remove the Reptster logo before the show? In my mind anyway, there's a lot more involved than just the black-and-white cost for the photocopies of the flyers alone.

Do I think they are owed the entire $750 at this point? No. Do I think throwing a mere $30 at them would be full payment for services rendered? Not hardly.

 

[Southern Wolf]

ok... lets say they spnet $30 to make up the fliers and they have 5 other sponsors on them..... should the other sponsors have to foot the bill to re-print all the fliers. The other 5 are still on there.. .but the only change is he is not.

So now they have spent $60 to print the fliers (the original 30 and then the reprint).

What about the 2 mos she promoted his site... and sent people there. Whether it was because of the fliers or word of mouth.

Basically he has had 2 mos worth of free advertising. She has taken his name off her site, and her fliers... his name is not gonna help the show any. The new people that the site is promoted to.... prob wont even know that RIPster was involved unless they go to the site and see the link.

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

I posted the response for david on his profile page for others to see, not to hide. I asked for a simple dollar amount to see if a resolution about the money could be reached. I was going to offer to pay the amount to stop the fussing over it. When on two occasions I asked for the amount and was told that David needed to be asking I gave up. I again will say this site can be used for so much good in the reptile community. But again I see the same small group of people looking for vengance not a resolve. It seems that emotions are on red alert with this thread and it seems there is another no win situation. I think it is very hardheaded of someone to post all the problems without offering a solution.
Reminds me of our government at the present time!
Since David is still reading this, I would like to ask again for a resolution to be offered in here in black and white for him to read and then allow him to decide. This should not be a problem unless a resolution is not what you were after!
Allen Belcher 706-615-4772

 

[Seamus Haley]

Seamus,

While I definitely agree with the basic idea behind your previous post, I do have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. Perhaps Kelly and Matt have not put out a huge amount of money with printing flyers, etc., but a portion of the payment due to them is for the time they have invested in advertising and such for Reptster. Were there any sort of design fees involved with making the flyers? I don't know. Do they put more of their own money into hurriedly trying to have them redesigned to remove the Reptster logo before the show? In my mind anyway, there's a lot more involved than just the black-and-white cost for the photocopies of the flyers alone.

Do I think they are owed the entire $750 at this point? No. Do I think throwing a mere $30 at them would be full payment for services rendered? Not hardly.

The thirty dollar figure was (partially anyway) hyperbolic. An extreme statement intended to evoke some answers.

They should be compensated for their time and effort but at this point how is that value determined?

Since the promotional materials focused on the show and included multiple sponsers, David can't be expected to bear the sole cost of that, as large portions of any design work are inherently still associated with other businesses and the promotion of the venue itself. How much design work actually happened? I'd like to see copies of the fliers so I know if it consisted of more than big print with the show location and dates with smaller print or a copied and pasted Repster logo and name someplace down the bottom in a list of vendors.

I don't like this all or nothing mentality; to state that they are owed $750 when large portions of that were identified as being associated with services that won't be delivered is shifty and devious. Their lack of a defined set of terms has bitten them in the ass- their services have been rejected by a sponsor as undesireable, all that's left are hard costs. Hard costs that they refuse to reveal the details of.

David and Reptster are clearly in the wrong. That doesn't make it right to try to demand more than is owed. That's just as much an act of theft as his ambiguous withdrawl was.

 

[Serafim]

The thirty dollar figure was (partially anyway) hyperbolic. An extreme statement intended to evoke some answers.

They should be compensated for their time and effort but at this point how is that value determined?

Since the promotional materials focused on the show and included multiple sponsers, David can't be expected to bear the sole cost of that, as large portions of any design work are inherently still associated with other businesses and the promotion of the venue itself. How much design work actually happened? I'd like to see copies of the fliers so I know if it consisted of more than big print with the show location and dates with smaller print or a copied and pasted Repster logo and name someplace down the bottom in a list of vendors.

I don't like this all or nothing mentality; to state that they are owed $750 when large portions of that were identified as being associated with services that won't be delivered is shifty and devious. Their lack of a defined set of terms has bitten them in the ass- their services have been rejected by a sponsor as undesireable, all that's left are hard costs. Hard costs that they refuse to reveal the details of.

David and Reptster are clearly in the wrong. That doesn't make it right to try to demand more than is owed. That's just as much an act of theft as his ambiguous withdrawl was.

Great Post Seamus

 

[shrap]

I posted the response for david on his profile page for others to see, not to hide.

You are a hoot Allen. If nothing else you sure keep me laughing.

 

[Seamus Haley]

ok... lets say they spnet $30 to make up the fliers and they have 5 other sponsors on them..... should the other sponsors have to foot the bill to re-print all the fliers. The other 5 are still on there.. .but the only change is he is not.

So now they have spent $60 to print the fliers (the original 30 and then the reprint).

What about the 2 mos she promoted his site... and sent people there. Whether it was because of the fliers or word of mouth.

Basically he has had 2 mos worth of free advertising. She has taken his name off her site, and her fliers... his name is not gonna help the show any. The new people that the site is promoted to.... prob wont even know that RIPster was involved unless they go to the site and see the link.

Have fliers actually been reprinted and redistributed?

At this point I'd have to see proof to believe it, like dated receipts for printing and copies of the fliers.

With regards to her website... were the banner spaces full? Did the advertising spots even exist prior to the sponsorship deal with Reptster? Did they limit the number of ads they would put into a rotation and deny prospective customers?

The contention is that they have LOST tangible dollar valued resources. If the banner ad spot didn't exist or wasn't full then nothing was actually lost. It just wasn't gained... and there is a difference between the two situations.

All of which is exactly why I want a breakdown of costs and some verification that those costs are as they're being represented. So I can know how much David stole by not following through with his comittment and how much they tried to steal from him by demanding payment for things he never recieved.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Seamus

While there are certain points in your argument i agree with, the logic is flawed in one area. Advertising costs are not based on an estimate of hard expenses plus a 20% margin for profit. If for example, as you said, the only thing that was done under the agreement was the printing of 1,000 flyers at a hard cost of $30 and Repster was prominently displayed as the main sponsor on all 1,000 do you really think he just owes for the cost of the flyers. He got the benefit of 1,000 potential new members from those flyers. Suppose just 3% of those flyers result in new members and just half end up using him as their shipping agent. That's 15 new shippers that he makes a profit off of. Do you really think anyone selling advertising would just charge him the cost of the flyers plus a small percentage?

By that logic, Fauna, or any other site should not really charge for advertising. They should calculate what small percentage of bandwidth your ad uses, add a small percentage and consider that fair. Ads in newspapers are horrendously expensive. They don't calculate the cost of paper and ink and add a profit margin. The prices are based on how much potential financial benefit the buyer will get from the ad. That is the reason that TV and radio spots cost so much.

In this instance, whether David used the full service or not, he contracted for it. By the terms of the verbal contract that Kelly paints, he owes the full amount. He has not really produced a single piece of evidence that supports his story to the contrary.

In this instance, if a proration was the only solution, the fair thing to do would be to base it on the number of days that he received benefit on the agreement before his advertising was actually pulled, not to attempt to prorate an expense list.

Personally, I tend to side with Mark and think this is a money issue. Especially since it has been revealed that he screwed another promoter in a similar manner. Repticon is an established show that gets a lot of traffic. It was stated in an earlier post that he should pay a percentage of the price that went into those totes that had his name plastered all over them. All i can say is that he has a brilliant advertising strategy.

Contract for the services

Delay payment and receive benefit.

Maybe pay some of the material costs....maybe not.


There are a lot of big corporations that would probably love to implement this strategy. The problem is, they would spend all their time in court.

As a last comment, to those who had a major problem with the sponsorship fee of $750, go to www.worldherpexpo.com and look at their sponsorship schedule. That was the only show I found that had it posted.

 

[Cat_72]

I posted the response for david on his profile page for others to see, not to hide. I asked for a simple dollar amount to see if a resolution about the money could be reached. I was going to offer to pay the amount to stop the fussing over it. When on two occasions I asked for the amount and was told that David needed to be asking I gave up. I again will say this site can be used for so much good in the reptile community. But again I see the same small group of people looking for vengance not a resolve. It seems that emotions are on red alert with this thread and it seems there is another no win situation. I think it is very hardheaded of someone to post all the problems without offering a solution.
Reminds me of our government at the present time!
Since David is still reading this, I would like to ask again for a resolution to be offered in here in black and white for him to read and then allow him to decide. This should not be a problem unless a resolution is not what you were after!
Allen Belcher 706-615-4772

OK, so you all want us to believe that you were just trying to be a nice guy and help out to find a fair resolution? Suuuurrreeee.....that's why you were calling Kelly and Matt "idiots".

And I'm not sure why it should be solely up to David's decision whether or not to pay....and why if he intended to pay ANYTHING, he wouldn't return Kelly's attempts at contact in the first place.

Oh, and since you're such a nice guy, were you going to take care of the other complaints against David too?

Do you REALLY think your comments have helped David any here, Allen?

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

cat I was trying to bring an end to this thread because I don't want it to surpass one of mine.
Allen Belcher 706-615-4772

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

cat I was trying to bring an end to this thread because I don't want it to surpass one of mine.
Allen Belcher 706-615-4772

Alan, you should check and see if Terry needs help holding that rope.

 

[big daddy's wholesal]

I do good not to get it on my own boots, There is no way I could hit a rope!
Allen Belcher 706-615-4772

 

[Southern Wolf]

The original arguement was... he agreed to sponsor the show for $750. He agreed to this and even sent an email stating he was mailing payment. He has not shown one shred of evidence to prove otherwise.

They promoted his site for 2 mos before this thread ever started... and before they took down him as a sponsor... primarily because of lack of payment... and not returing emails or phone calls.

Because of his original agreement... the printed up fliers with a prodoment Reptster logo and also decided to go with color to better reperesent Reptster. All of which I can understand.

How can you put a price on the advertisment. We will never know actually how many people decided to sign up because of this.

He originally agreed to the $750... that is what they were trying to achieve... this however also came with them running his booth at the show.

What is their time worth... 5 bucks an hour.... 6 buck.... they spent time promoting reptster... several have attested to this. What about handing out fliers.. that benefited reptster... cause his name was on it. It doesnt matter who else was on that same flier... it benefited him PERIOD.

So now they have had to take even more time to take him off their site... redesign the flier (even if it was just a word document that got printed)... it still took time. Then remove the available fliers that had been hung up locally and replace with the new ones.

All of this time... should have been spent on other things related to the show. Not backtracking. I can see and understand why they dont want anymore fliers out there than has to be with his name on them. Its just more free advertising. Just think of all the ones they passed out at the reptile show. (I think it was hamburg) They will never be able to get those back.... and hamburg is a big show.

 

[Seamus Haley]

You do raise some excellent points John and there's little there that I can find to disagree with as you presented it.

I would just point out that the cited difference between the $750 service and the $250 service centered around having a person physically work a table as his representative.

And while your points are certainly accurate and relevant, the basis for the argument against him has used the financial losses incurred associated with the services that were rendered as a primary point. While it does nothing to excuse David's behavior in the matter, when the complaining party repeatedly cites examples of their expenses "and I already paid for fliers." "and I already paid for fliers." "and I already put up a banner ad." it seemed reasonable to believe that was the substance of their complaint.