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Rick Sisco - Sisco Reptiles

Ok, this is my 500th post, so I will make it something to get riled up about. Not trying to pick a fight, just throwing out an observation.
Rick' posted a cross that had the characteristics shown in Bobby's Giants.Both Color, and the V were visible.
Bobby posted showing that 3 types of Tegus live in Argentina.
Is it possible that Bobby's animals are a rare, naturally occuring mutt?
 
DaveyFig said:
Ok, this is my 500th post, so I will make it something to get riled up about. Not trying to pick a fight, just throwing out an observation.
Rick' posted a cross that had the characteristics shown in Bobby's Giants.Both Color, and the V were visible.
Bobby posted showing that 3 types of Tegus live in Argentina.
Is it possible that Bobby's animals are a rare, naturally occuring mutt?
Well if you really want to get technical about things. None of the damn things are from Argentina. Most all the Tegus in the U. S. were born in Alabama and Florida. They have been bred many generations from their wild ancestors. So really none of them are Argentine Tegus. Hows that grab you.
 
harveysherps said:
Well if you really want to get technical about things. None of the damn things are from Argentina. Most all the Tegus in the U. S. were born in Alabama and Florida. They have been bred many generations from their wild ancestors. So really none of them are Argentine Tegus. Hows that grab you.

Argentine Black and White tegu is the common name. They can be from Alabama and still be Argentine.They don't change binomial nomenclature based on location of birth, why should it be any different with common names?
 
Oh great the expert has changed the the origins of tegu's , Man better get my North American Carpets and Chondro's posted online before anyone else fugues out that your animal is now from where it was bred.

Wes that's just um Silly.. Randy
 
DaveyFig said:
Argentine Black and White tegu is the common name. They can be from Alabama and still be Argentine.They don't change binomial nomenclature based on location of birth, why should it be any different with common names?
I'm glad you said that. Your right it's all in a name. Bobby has bred his Tegus and what he calls them is his common name that he chose to give them. That is how they are presented. Common names change. Bobby is trying to build his own history in the Tegu world.He isn't using someone elses to do it either. But as far as what they are called as far as I'm concerned it's up to the breeder. He could have called them a Hill Peachy V Tegu for all that matter. Hell I'd like to be known as Harvey Hungwell . It might not be true. But it sounds good to me. Names are what set things aside from others. To distinguish between good and bad in this case. When others see that name works . They tend to borrow it and make a few quick bucks. But if they had made their own history . Instead of quick money . They could have a continuing supply. And not have to defend themselves in public.
 
So where did the name "Chacoan" come from? I know if I were to produce my own cool looking boas, I wouldn't call them Bogata Pastels. People would think I had a locality specific animal from Bogata Colombia. Which part is the morph name? Is the morph "Chacoan", "Chacoan Giant", or "Giant". I would think "Giant" would distinguish the morph enough for it to stand alone. Adding "Chacoan" only confuses the issue. If Giants only came from Chaco, or Chacoans were all Giant I could see how one could think Rick was being deceptive by selling his "Chacoan". I haven't seen anything posted where he called his "Chacoan Giants" though. He didn't use the adjectives that describe the size, along with locality. If I remember correctly without going back and reading, he called them Chacoan White heads or something like that.
If you buy an Albino leopard gecko from Ron Tremper, I buy a Tremper Giant from him, and Jesus has a normal from Tremper and we all posts pictures of our Tremper Leopard geckos in the same thread entitled "Tremper Leopard Geckos", would any of us be wrong? They all came from the same place, or hell, could even come from people just using the same lines. They are still named after Tremper.
Now if I see you are getting all kinds of attention from yours, and I start calling mine a Tremper Albino, there would be a problem.
I think that Rick and Bobby both believe that they have animals that are from Chacoan lines. They both dropped the "Chacoan", but one seems a lot more vocal about making it known that his are the only ones. The other just asks for the same proof that he is asked to show. Instead of offering proof that his are Chacoan, and Ricks are not, he says things like "Can you prove yours are from Argentina?" WHAT???
He says that Rick said right here on the BOI that his animals are the same as his, but when asked to link to that he doesn't want to wade through 180 posts to find it. If you really want to, you can ignore posts by all users except Rick, and cut this thread down really short, really quick, and wade through just a few posts.If you want to make a claim just back it up. Ya know?
 
Well to call a tegu an Argentine, is calling that animal a local, the same as calling mine Chacoan. Are mine from Chaco, you bet they are, do I have proof, no. But the same can be said about the tegus Rick calls Argentine tegus, is there proof that they came from Argentina? Or are those from one of the many other locals I posted before?

Chaco plains covers the extreme northern range, this includes parts of Paraguay. Lowland alluvial plain, south-central South America. An arid lowland, it is bounded by the Andes Mountains to the west and the Paraguay and Paraná rivers to the east; its northern and southern margins, generally considered to be a marshy area in Bolivia and the Salado River in Argentina, respectively, are less well defined. Its area is about 280,000 sq miles.

800px-GranChacoApproximate.jpg
 
"Argentine Black and White Tegu"(the common name) is not a locale if as you posted earlier they come from several countries. Probably the first ones described back in the day were in Argentina, and they were later discovered elsewhere. That is a good reason to use only the latin names. They aren't changed by borders.
I am going to guess you don't have proof that yours are from Argentina either? Your website says that they are Argentine Black and Whites, just a differnt locale.
 
DaveyFig said:
"Argentine Black and White Tegu"(the common name) is not a locale if as you posted earlier they come from several countries. Probably the first ones described back in the day were in Argentina, and they were later discovered elsewhere. That is a good reason to use only the latin names. They aren't changed by borders.
I am going to guess you don't have proof that yours are from Argentina either? Your website says that they are Argentine Black and Whites, just a differnt locale.

Exactly, that is how silly Rick was being. Common name of my Giants is Chacoan, same thing.
 
If his are also from the Chaco Plains though why cant he say that they are? It looks like 1/4 or more of Argentina is Chaco Plains. Do you really think that 99.9999999999% of all the tegus exported from Argentine came from 3/4 of the country, and yours are the only ones that came from that 1/4?
From your own site :"We are the only breeders of these awesome Extreme Giant tegus previously called Chacoan White Giant Tegus."

and this:" We have the White head normals, these were falsely called Chacoan white heads by other breeders."

"Chacoan White Giant Tegu" doesn't really sound like "Chacoan White head" to me. Sounds like 2 totally different morphs (for lack of a better word) from the same locality.
 
See this is the problem he is having, the bottom picture is one of my tegus, it was posted by Bert in this month's issue of Reptiles.

It says:
Left: Named after the Chaco region of southern Paraguay and northern Argentina, Chacoan tegus are another form of Tupinambis Merianae

page20two1.jpg


That was written by Bert.
 
So, Bert completely dropped your "White Giant Tegu", and called them just Chacoans. How does that make you feel?
Will Bert come here and tell us that yours are the only Chacoan Tegus, and that ONLY that form comes from the Chaco Plains?
 
I'm pretty sure Bert has no interest in coming here and explaining something he explains perfectly well in the print next to the picture of Bobby Hill's tegu.
 
DaveyFig said:
So, Bert completely dropped your "White Giant Tegu", and called them just Chacoans. How does that make you feel?
Will Bert come here and tell us that yours are the only Chacoan Tegus, and that ONLY that form comes from the Chaco Plains?

Davey, your kidding right? I expained before, Chacoan means Giant. I think he expained it, unless you are trying to over look it.
 
Saladragon said:
I'm pretty sure Bert has no interest in coming here and explaining something he explains perfectly well in the print next to the picture of Bobby Hill's tegu.

So Tere, are you suggesting that since the author chose to use a picture of Bobby's tegu as an example of a Chacoan that only Bobby's can be called Chacoan tegus? Does it state somewhere in the article that ONLY Bobby Hill has Chacoan tegus and everyone else's aren't Chacoan?
 
varnyard said:
I expained before, Chacoan means Giant.

You never did prove that all Chacoans are giants and that only giants are Chacoans. You made the claim several times but never actually showed any proof of it being a fact...
 
varnyard said:
Chaco plains covers the extreme northern range, this includes parts of Paraguay. Lowland alluvial plain, south-central South America. An arid lowland, it is bounded by the Andes Mountains to the west and the Paraguay and Paraná rivers to the east; its northern and southern margins, generally considered to be a marshy area in Bolivia and the Salado River in Argentina, respectively, are less well defined. Its area is about 280,000 sq miles.

So every tegu in that 280,000 square miles is a giant?
 
Gecko_Den said:
So Tere, are you suggesting that since the author chose to use a picture of Bobby's tegu as an example of a Chacoan that only Bobby's can be called Chacoan tegus? Does it state somewhere in the article that ONLY Bobby Hill has Chacoan tegus and everyone else's aren't Chacoan?

Nope...just saying that I don't think Bert would be interested in coming here to explain something he explained perfectly well in his (for lack of a better term, since it's a picture and an explanation) article, next to Bobby Hill's tegu. I don't recall saying anything about ONLY this or ONLY that.
 
Guess I have a minute to throw in another 2 cents. My claim to credibility on this issue is that locale names, "designer" names, and product "branding", are much more common, and at times disputed, in the panther chameleon market. Before I go too much further, let me point out, from my "on-high" position <cough>, that the ability to effectively brand a color variation, legitimate or otherwise (as it is always in some dispute) does often allow the seller to charge a premium. Bottom line is that, until someone shows otherwise, Bobby was the first to the name "Chacoan Giants" and the variants that flowed from it. They only had to maybe be from Chacoa, and maybe be pretty big, for him to brand it. The extent to which others wanted to coat-tail that would cause issues. Bobby has since moved to other names. As with Ron Tremper, if Bobby had chosen to call them "Bobby's Big Beasts", it may have been more of a stretch for others to coat-tail. Either way, many in the business would have respected Bobby's label. His label still allowed gray area with others in their marketing, and friction could be expected. In this case, it became more than a skirmish. Seems a good friendship fell prey to money. Many of us have lost friendships due to money, etc. Seems a shame here. I think to focus on specificity of the brand name, as if we were talking scientific names, or sub-species, is to have missed the point. IMMHO, this was a marketing issue, specifically about brand propriety. And if there's a "Tremper plateau" I'll eat my hat, btw.
 
Bobby, I have to disagree with part of your logic.
IMO Unless you can verify the origin, it is not really a locality animal. Chacoan is not another word for giant IMO. Chacoan would be a locale specific part of the country.
I'll use a boa locale as an example to explain. There is a locale specific boa called Bluefields Nicaraguans. Only the animals with the paperwork verifying the origin can be called Bluefields locale Nicaraguan boas. Even though they look a bit different than your "standard" Nic boa, unless you have the paperwork to prove the locale, they are simply Nicaraguna boas. Same would go with Nic boas that look similiar to Bluefields but didn't have the paperwork. True Bluefields locale animals can be traced back to where they were originally collected.
Same principle would apply to Argentine B&W tegus IMO. Unless you can document they are specifically from the Chaco region, they are simply Argentine tegus.
IMO, there is no way to prove these are locale specific tegus so using the term "Chacoan tegu" may sound nice but if the claim cannot be supported, they should not be labeled as such.
 
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