• Posted 12/19/2024.
    =====================

    I am still waiting on my developer to finish up on the Classifieds Control Panel so I can use it to encourage members into becoming paying members. Google Adsense has become a real burden on the viewing of this site, but honestly it is the ONLY source of income now that keeps it afloat. I tried offering disabling the ads being viewed by paying members, but apparently that is not enough incentive. Quite frankly, Google Adsense has dropped down to where it barely brings in enough daily to match even a single paid member per day. But it still gets the bills paid. But at what cost?

    So even without the classifieds control panel being complete, I believe I am going to have to disable those Google ads completely and likely disable some options here that have been free since going to the new platform. Like classified ad bumping, member name changes, and anything else I can use to encourage this site to be supported by the members instead of the Google Adsense ads.

    But there is risk involved. I will not pay out of pocket for very long during this last ditch experimental effort. If I find that the membership does not want to support this site with memberships, then I cannot support your being able to post your classified ads here for free. No, I am not intending to start charging for your posting ads here. I will just shut the site down and that will be it. I will be done with FaunaClassifieds. I certainly don't need this, and can live the rest of my life just fine without it. If I see that no one else really wants it to survive neither, then so be it. It goes away and you all can just go elsewhere to advertise your animals and merchandise.

    Not sure when this will take place, and I don't intend to give any further warning concerning the disabling of the Google Adsense. Just as there probably won't be any warning if I decide to close down this site. You will just come here and there will be some sort of message that the site is gone, and you have a nice day.

    I have been trying to make a go of this site for a very long time. And quite frankly, I am just tired of trying. I had hoped that enough people would be willing to help me help you all have a free outlet to offer your stuff for sale. But every year I see less and less people coming to this site, much less supporting it financially. That is fine. I tried. I retired the SerpenCo business about 14 years ago, so retiring out of this business completely is not that big if a step for me, nor will it be especially painful to do. When I was in Thailand, I did not check in here for three weeks. I didn't miss it even a little bit. So if you all want it to remain, it will be in your hands. I really don't care either way.

    =====================
    Some people have indicated that finding the method to contribute is rather difficult. And I have to admit, that it is not all that obvious. So to help, here is a thread to help as a quide. How to become a contributing member of FaunaClassifieds.

    And for the record, I will be shutting down the Google Adsense ads on January 1, 2025.
  • Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

sandfire dragon ranch

dden said:
Lets face it: All of the Bearded Dragons in captivity today are decendants of a very small number of animals.

May I see proof or a link backing up that statement. during the 60's and 70's pogona's and other herp's were imported by the thousands. How does that make for a limited gene pool?





dden said:
That means they all share the same ancestors...it is very likely that all bearded dragons have been exposed to Adenovirus, at some point, long before we even knew what it was.

again do you have a link or documentation supporting evidence?? I'm thinking that is probably hand me down hearsay.





dden said:
Am I saying that every bearded dragon in the country has Adenovirus? No. I am saying that, just because a dragon has a negative test on one day, that does not mean it will not test positive on another day.

Is that statement from sandfires own testing? why is it a problem testing your breeders?? It seems you would ease alot of minds ,as it seems testing will be inevitable, if you want to remain a leading force in pogona breeding? This thread is only the tip of a huge iceberg of many future sandfire posts, so my advice is listen to the posters concerns as she has a product your company produced. whats wrong with publicly acknowledging that this is a problem and taking a company stand to test and also to take an active role in fighting the problem. I know alot of breeders are not concerned because because the general public doesnt know what adeno is. problem is consumers educate very quickly these days, so take this negative, make it a positive.

Jack
 
lol,ok what was all that about?i could copy/paste too if you like.i never told kevin that she was completely healthy,i told him that she had some issues that concerned me and thats why i decided to test.you know this is quite BS,i am done.i did what i came to do,warn innocent ppl about irresponsible breeders that care more about a profit than the beardie population.bye
 
outsdr2, you said exactly what I was going to say. Yes, I have heard many bearded dragons have this horrible virus from my vet, you want to know why, because of breeders that think it is nothing. Well, unfortunately, it is something to be concerned about. It is only in the dragons that were breed and had positive babies and that contaminated negative ones also. There are many negative dragons out there. But if this way of thinking continues it will harm the species.

Puppytoes, I am sorry Jojo has this horrible virus. You did the right thing by contacting sandfire ranch and now we all know where they stand with it. You can't change their way of thinking but you did a good thing because now the public knows.

Sandy
 
Bobby, may I ask...have you read all of the other threads on Adeno in dragons?

Having dragons myself, I have done a great deal of research on it. I think perhaps it would serve you well to do more research if you are truly interested in this, before blindly taking Kevin's word for everything. While no one has all of the answers to this...just claiming that all dragons have it and pretending that it's no big deal isn't going to solve anything.

I say this with the utmost respect, Bobby....and as a friend.
 
Hello

Hello,

There is alot of proof that every bearded dragon does not have adeno virus. Why would there be so many that have had repeated adeno tests done, only to test negative, & then some after just 1 test, to test positive.
I strongly doubt that the bearded dragons originally in Australia & New Guinea ever had adeno virus. This is a virus that has been started due to human captivity & if not controlled, it will destroy the entire gene pool in the US.
Has anyone read this from Dr. Wentz?

http://www.reptilerooms.com/Sections+index-req-viewarticle-artid-47-page-1.html


He states that it is a relatively NEW disease. Making statements like ALL bearded dragons have the adenovirus is like saying ALL humans have the Aids or HIV. That is way too generalized of a statement.

Michele has every right to be upset especially when the breeder has no intention of testing his primary breeders. Sure there are alot of possibilities we all know that. The dragon could have contracted it outside of the facility of Sandfire. However, how does he really know that? How could he know that unless he agrees to test his breeders?

That is where I am having such huge problems. I understand the huge cost of upkeep of dragons, breeding, etc. However, part of being a responsible & ethical breeder of whatever type of breeder you are, is putting the health & welfare above anything else. If you are going into breeding strictly for money without any regard to the health & wellbeing of the animal, then, you don't have much of a heart. I just do not agree with that type of breeding. I will not support it, either.

I have said this in a previous post about adenovirus, etc, & I will say it again. I am disgusted by how people have been handling this issue here in the United States. Steve Irwin's memory gets smeared when things are handled in this manner. How dare we take his beautiful creatures from HIS country & exploit them in this manner that we are doing? He is probobly shaking his head in disgust as we speak. I am ashamed of how it has come to this. It is very sad. His dragons deserve so much better, & we need to try to make him, & Terri proud. The dragons come first before anything.

Tracie
 
Oh my....another breeder saying all beardies have adeno, now why doesn't that surprize me?
Why is it the smaller scale breeders and the keeper/hobbyists all say test, test, test....while the bigger breeders claim that this isn't a big deal?
If only we had a crystal ball that would allow us to see into the next 20 years or so, just to see how many healthy 600-700 gram beardies are left in the U.S., and how many of these same breeders are no longer breeding beardies but have moved on to another species? :confused:
 
:iagree:
I agree with Tracie 100%. Even though Jo jo may seem healthy now. doesnt mean there wont be future issues. You can have a seemingly healthy dragon with the virus. All 5 of mine also tested postitive from various breeders. I didnt test because they were sick. I tested because I wanted to breed healthy dragons. Some have developed issues but mostly I am ok. Now husbandry doesnt have anything to do with it. I have a dragon I have had for a year under my same care. Nothing changed. good husbandry suddenly have tremors.. I didnt change anything. There was no stress factors. So explain to me how this happened then. Till that point never even a parasite treatment. she has been healthy over all.
I notified all of the the breeders just as Michele is doing. When I found my positive test. they were all the first to know. I think its good to get the word out to ask about testing before purchase and to know which breeders are testing for this to prevent spread. There is nothing wrong with that in my eyes.
 
I have been looking at what information I can find on this, it is not much. But it sounds like to me it is way too soon to have all of the facts. From what I have read so far, they do not have too many answers yet.

I am not a breeder of bearded dragons, I have had a few through the years. So I do not know too much about them past general care. I do know it is tragic when things like this happen in our hobby, this much I do know for sure.

As for Michele, you can be angry with me if you wish, but I did take the time to research this virus. I only posted my findings here, last time I looked this was a discussion forum. I also added facts to the thread, you did have this beardie for at least six months. You bought it from a store that has been well known for not taking the best care when it comes to animals. That is why I asked the questions I have.
 
Michele-

As a former breeder, I would like to say I think you've done the right thing. You've notified the company that they could have a potential problem, just like you any moral human being would have done. Had it been six months ago, I would have hated to be on the receiving end of that phone call, but would hope I would deal with it a bit more professionally than to say something like it's in all bearded dragons, and it's no big deal. To those of us with positive dragons, it's a HUGE deal. Of that, I can assure you.

I completely disagree that this virus is in all beardies, as I personally know at least one person who has PCR tested more than once, and has 100% negative breeding animals. I do think that if the larger breeders continue denying this is a problem, the possibility is certainly there that most bearded dragons will have this virus. Who knows, maybe that's what some are trying to accomplish?

I've asked before, but I'll ask again. Why is it that the general public is demanding that smaller breeders test (with good reason), but the larger breeders feels this same standard doesn't apply to them? Well, folks, the time has come to remove your heads from the sand and start dealing with this issue.

Yes, some bearded dragon appear to be living healthy lives, even though they test positive for Adenovirus. There are others, however, with major issues. We personally have experienced the failure to thrive and hatchling die-offs, as well as the persistent parasite issues and problems with shedding. To me, any virus that causes these types of issues in bearded dragons makes them UNHEALTHY...and that's NOT something that should be continually bred back into them.

These animals don't know whether or not they're breeding with a positive testing animal, and it's up to us humans to make that distinction for them. It's up to us to protect them, and it's up to us to ensure that if we're producing mass amounts of these animals, that they are healthy...particularly when those animals could then go on to infect others.

People are more aware of this virus now, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more threads just like this. What those breeders need to keep in mind is that not all of us are morons, and not all of us will believe everything that's told to us. We're doing our own research, and we're getting educated...and that's a start.
 
It could be possible that Jo jo was contaminated. theres no way of knowing. But I feel.. From my personal experience. that once you notify the breeder they should see about testing. And test their own stock. It is the proper way to work things. The most ethical. Just because they are a large breeder doesnt mean they should be excluded from testing. This is my opinion though.

I agree varnyard info is slim. But I have contacted the people researching and have had alot of personal experiences that i have heard or seen myself to gain what i have. And then as well. the limited websites out.
My results also stated "Do please talk with a reptile specialist before doing anything, especially if you are breeding or selling your dragons."
Do they say this to scare us?
As far as Jacobson is concerned a positive dragon should not be sold or bred. so why would this expert in the field feel that way. That is why I feel once notified the breeders should test
 
Hello

Hello,

Yes, I hope that there are more threads like this, Tere, for sure!
It simply cannot be swept under the rug like it was before. It will just get worse & worse each time it happens. Soon there will be no more dragons left.
You are a perfect example of a caring & honest breeder. If only they were all like you. I know all of your dragons have an awesome home no matter what. I hope they are all doing well now.
We all need to just get the word out to consumers so they can be informed. Petstores need to be informed as well, if they don't know about it yet. It has to start somewhere, & it starts with all of us.
The way the larger scale breeders are handling it, is disgusting. Saying all dragons have adenovirus is basically denying it exists as a problem. It is just a lazy excuse, that's all. They do not have the best interest of their dragons at heart.

Tracie
 
ty tere!i agree with tracie,you are one of the honest ones and you sacrificed bigtime for the sake of the beardies.kudos!
 
I'm a bit late jumping into this thread, but here goes.
First, I've read all the posts, and its a bit disconcerting to see the some of the posts. I think that everyone here who is breeding or has been breeding beardies knows how limited the blood lines are, particularly in the "higher end" lines.
I actually agree with Kevin when he says that most of the Dragons in the US have probably been exposed to Adeno at some point. Does this mean that they are all infected? absolutely not.
I own a Sandfire male that has been been tested twice now for this virus, both times he has tested negative. Does that mean that all Sandfire stock is negative? No. Does that mean that he has never been exposed to Adenovirus? No, it does not.
I also agree with Kevin when he says that a Dragon that tests negative today might test positive tomorrow. Believe me, I'm an advocate for testing, and I would never breed or sell an animal that tests positive, but a little bit a realism is a good thing here.
The one thing we all need to understand here is that no one, not one researcher or vet is guaranteeing that a negative test means a permanent negative dragon. There are a lot of factors that come into play here, including exposure to other dragons, that would make that an impossible guarantee to give.
Do I think that all dragons have Adenovirus? Absolutely not! There is zero evidence I have seen that would back that up. Adenovirus is a virus (duh!), not a naturally occurring parasite, so stress alone can not cause a dragon to test positive.

No offense to anyone but this is how I see this subject. If I go and buy a Beardie from Petco or Petsmart, and that animal tests positive for Adenovirus, I'm still not sure that even if you could be 100% positive that the dragon came from ___________ breeder, that they were necessarily infected by that breeder. There are still other factors, even the cage they were housed in could be the method of infection and not the breeder. It's hard to know for sure if the breeder doesn't test.
That said, as much truth as I saw in Kevin's post, I have to add this, there is no doubt what people like Dr. Jacobson have to say on this issue, and it all boils down very simply to me. If you're going to breed, you should test. Think of the heartache that could have been avoided years ago if snake breeders had started testing for IBD years before it caused such havoc in the captive bred snake population.
 
Isnt the only way to test for IBD is to euthanize a snake and then test the organs.
Jim
 
JimD said:
Isnt the only way to test for IBD is to euthanize a snake and then test the organs.
Jim

That's not true. While the procedure is pricey, tissue samples can be taken and biopsied from a live snake.
 
JimD said:
Isnt the only way to test for IBD is to euthanize a snake and then test the organs.
Jim

There is a blood test to check for IBD, so no, snakes do not have to be euthanized to test for it.
From Merck:
Inclusion Body Disease (IBD) of Boid Snakes:
Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms. Early symptoms, possibly precipitated by any factor causing immune suppression, include a history of unthriftiness, anorexia, weight loss, secondary bacterial infections, poor wound healing, dermal necrosis, and regurgitation. In essence, IBD should be considered in every sick boa. Typical findings in the acute phase of the disease include leukocytosis and a normal chemistry panel. As the disease progresses, white cell counts tend to decline to subnormal levels. Blood chemistry results are variable depending on how debilitated and dehydrated the boa becomes, but organ damage may appear. As the disease becomes chronic, some boas will exhibit neurologic symptoms ranging from mild facial tics and abnormal tongue flicking to failure of the snake to right itself when placed in dorsal recumbency and severe seizures.
Pythons are thought to be an abnormal host to the IBD retrovirus because the course of disease is more acute and neurologic symptoms more profound. In most pythons the acute symptoms that boas exhibit will be missed, and they will be presented with severe neurologic disease. While the active disease can linger for months or more in boas, most pythons die within days or weeks of the onset of clinical signs.
Exposure to this retrovirus appears to be due to a transfer of body fluids. Breeding, fight wounds, and fecal/oral contamination are common ways of transfer. Casual handling of an infected specimen and then a normal specimen does not appear to create enough viral exposure to cause infection. However, any immunocompromised reptile may be susceptible under the right circumstances. The snake mite is assumed to be responsible for the spread of the virus in large, well-maintained collections.
A tentative diagnosis is based on the history and clinical signs. Blood work will vary depending on the stage of the disease, but few diseases in snakes will cause such elevated white cell counts in the early stages. On blood smears, inclusion bodies are frequently found in the cytoplasm of leukocytes. One strain (3 strains have been isolated) of the virus frequently produces inclusion bodies in the cytoplasm of erythrocytes. The inclusion bodies are highly suggestive, but not 100% reliable. A definitive diagnosis is obtained via biopsy of internal tissues in which the characteristic inclusion bodies are found, eg, the liver, kidney, esophageal tonsils, and stomach. An ELISA is being developed.
IBD is not curable, and many clients may choose euthanasia. However, individuals may elect to isolate their snakes and treat with supportive and palliative measures. It is essential to educate clients not to sell infected specimens or their offspring, as this has caused the disease to spread worldwide.
 
The blood tests for IBD are not very reliable. You cannot effectively rule out the possibility that the animal has it just by blood test. Tissue samples are the only way to get a certain answer. And those samples CAN be obtained from a live animal.

A definitive diagnosis is obtained via biopsy of internal tissues in which the characteristic inclusion bodies are found
 
Denise,
Could you please let us know what lab your vet used to run the swab and blood PCR that you had done on your dragons? I dont want to see your results - I just want to know which lab was used.

Thanks in advance for this info,
Vickie
 
Dachiu said:
Denise,
Could you please let us know what lab your vet used to run the swab and blood PCR that you had done on your dragons? I dont want to see your results - I just want to know which lab was used.

Thanks in advance for this info,
Vickie

One word. No. After I posted my Vet information to this forum I was informed by my Vet that people were calling her office to try to get information about me. I have an obligation and a responsibility to provide my test results and a means to verify them to people considering buying from me, but I have NO obligation to put my information on a public forum, it just seems to encourage people to attempt to violate my privacy.
 
People seem to worry all about themselves but not at all about those they hurt.
People will openly admit that they have not tested or will honestly say that they are AV pos. Those who claim to be negative will not prove it. I think that is a cop out. Weve been talking about compiling a list of AV neg breeders but it stops there. If no one will prove they are negative how can you even think of starting a list?
I think that no one will even try and show proof because in their hearts the believe that with proper testing theyre going to end up showing positive.
If I knew a %100 that I was negative Id have it plasterd all over the net. With talk of charging more for Neg AV babies Id be rich before I knew it.
Jim
 
Back
Top