Selective spider breeding

[SPJ]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

Exactly.
The problem is that some people look at it as this animal is cheap so if I breed the heck out of it, I can make a lot of money.
That's where the issue is.

IMO, it's about trying to produce quality. The best you can.

Too many people out there breed and sell spiders that look like they are having non stop seizures. Same with one-eyed and kinked animals.

If you want to see quality that went to pot, take a look at pastels. No selective breeding. Most of the ones on the market nowadays are ugly. Nothing like they were a few years ago.

 

[zacalaca]

Did they? I guess I do not know the person who owned the original ever spider morph, therefor I do not know if it was a wobbler.

Yes, I do think people need to be educated on the issues, and left to make their own choices.


MY choice.. is to never purchase from someone who breeds deformities. One eyed albinos.. kinked whozits and upside down faced whatzits. TO ME.. I can not see a reason to .. other then to make money. I have some boas that are poss het kahl albino.. if they breed.. and produce a no eyed albino.. .. they will not be bred together again.. and that eye-less guy will be freezer food.. (yup.. freezer eats them, nom nom)

And yes, I know that goes into a completely different argument regarding the rest of those albinos..

are you saying that the only offspring worth keeping are those that can be sold? and other people are in it for money? if the snake can eat and use the bathroom, i wouldn't kill it. only if it was destined to die a slow death, would i ever consider mercy euthanization

 

[hhmoore]

There's a lot of discussion on these forums, and the interplay of ideas makes the hobby strong. I actually think the discussion was quite civilized, hop over to the BOI and you'll see some real get down conversations.

I think this has been fairly civil, as well...
Unfortunately, I think that Zacalaca is posting from the perspective of the accused, and trying to rationalize and justify. This thread was initiated well before he came along, and many of us are still dealing with the issue rather generically - with only cursory, if any, reference to his particular situation. I understand that he took some heat in his ad; but that was addressed there.

Zachary - take yourself out of the seller's role for just a moment, and reread this thread from the perspective of an uninvolved party. Consider it as background information, not as an attack against you personally.

many of you have been in the ball python hobby way longer than i have. many knew about the possibility of wobbling prior to their purchasing of a spider, i did not.

i do understand, but i was ignorant about the issues concerning spiders.

Then that also reflects directly on the person, or people, that sold them to you. It doesn't change the fact that you jumped in blindly, dropping around $1000 (give or take a little, depending on when in 06 you bought, and from whom) on a morph you knew nothing about. I shunned BPs for many years, and only became interested in them after seeing a bumblebee in person at a show. A very cursory search on them (in early '05) turned up volumes of discussion about the wobble factor, so I was aware of it before I decided to make a purchase. AND, the person I purchased my first spider from directly addressed the subject with me, to make sure I knew about the potential.

well, then again all do if the founding male had a wobble. they have to be bred anyhow for any research to be done, investigating the cause and genetics of the wobble. i'm not a geneticist, or do i have plans to become one. i hope the issue is figured out eventually, but the fact remains that there are thousands already in circulation that will interfere with ever eliminating it.

Of course they do. Kevin (NERD) has stated that the founding male wobbled, and even that ALL spiders wobble. Of course, from what I have heard, he also inbred the heck out of the first couple generations in an attempt to find/prove a super. I was on somewhat of a sabbatical from the reptile world when that was happening, but from what I have read since, the wobble was the "dirty secret" of the spider morph for several years. It wasn't talked about openly, and that talk didn't happen until they became more accessible to hobbyists who started asking WTF??. Imagine getting into spiders earlier in the game, and dropping $5000+ on one...only to see it shaking all over the place when you unpacked it. You contact the breeder, and get told its normal - possibly even that all of them do it. No wonder the prevailing attitude was to just breed them and not worry about it - the option was to not breed it and kiss that investment goodbye.

 

[zacalaca]

i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

 

[hhmoore]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

Sure it is...but, realistically, what are the odds that that animal will find its way into the breeding pool? Unless you know the person you are giving/selling it to, you certainly can't guarantee that a person will heed your statement that it is not to be bred.

are you saying that the only offspring worth keeping are those that can be sold? and other people are in it for money? if the snake can eat and use the bathroom, i wouldn't kill it. only if it was destined to die a slow death, would i ever consider mercy euthanization

Nobody is saying that...but, as you've pointed out yourself, there are limits in terms of time, space, and money. I've got animals that I don't feel are breeding quality, but I have kept them for years...however, I can't keep every kinked or deformed baby that turns up (even if there aren't a lot of them). In simplest terms, breeder culls are a means of ensuring the strength and viability of the species/morph. Rather than risk the animal being taken by a new breeder looking for a cheap pickup, I've put some down. I've given away a handful of animals that had very minor flaws because I couldn't justify culling them...but I didn't consider them salesworthy, either (that includes.

 

[Lucille]

i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

Yeah but you manned up and made your ad a pet ad not a breeder ad. Everyone starts somewhere, and I'm proud of you for listening and changing.

 

[hhmoore]

huh - I wonder what I cut off my last post, lol....

 

[R. Eventide]

however, I can't keep every kinked or deformed baby that turns up (even if there aren't a lot of them). In simplest terms, breeder culls are a means of ensuring the strength and viability of the species/morph. Rather than risk the animal being taken by a new breeder looking for a cheap pickup, I've put some down. I've given away a handful of animals that had very minor flaws because I couldn't justify culling them...but I didn't consider them salesworthy, either (that includes.

Alas, I cannot agree with this. It's every breeder's decision, of course, but I can't ever justify killing a creature in this manner...unless it is the humane choice (to end suffering, etc.). Ball pythons are not endangered, so there's no need to cull for the "strength and viability of the species." Some will surely want to keep up the viability of a particular morph by culling, but I don't think a pretty color/pattern is worth putting down an animal just because it's not breed-worthy.

Even if I'd randomly produce a wobbler or kinked snake from good stock, I would either keep it or sell/give it to someone for a pet. I couldn't kill a ball python just because it "might" end up back in the breeder pool.

 

[Lucille]

I haven't heard much about how it must be for the wobbler, the more severe wobblers must have a pretty miserable existence.

 

[hhmoore]

Alas, I cannot agree with this. It's every breeder's decision, of course, but I can't ever justify killing a creature in this manner...unless it is the humane choice (to end suffering, etc.). Ball pythons are not endangered, so there's no need to cull for the "strength and viability of the species." Some will surely want to keep up the viability of a particular morph by culling, but I don't think a pretty color/pattern is worth putting down an animal just because it's not breed-worthy.

Even if I'd randomly produce a wobbler or kinked snake from good stock, I would either keep it or sell/give it to someone for a pet. I couldn't kill a ball python just because it "might" end up back in the breeder pool.

I never said that culling was a requirement, nor did I suggest culling for low quality examples of morphs...for what it's worth, I didn't specify BPs, either - they make up a relatively small portion of my collection I don't know (or care) how many animals you keep or breed, but I have around 15 adults (plus a handful or two...or maybe three...of subadults) of different species that I have no intention of breeding. Sure, I could sell them - there isn't really much reason not to - except I tend to keep my animals, even after I decide not to breed them. If I come across a baby with a small notch on the spine, or a minor tail kink - yes, I give them away. If it is something more significant, however, or something I feel is genetic, I have no qualms about culling those babies. That is a decision for each individual keeper, though...and several different arguments can be employed on either side. I'm not interested in debating the pros & cons of culling - I understand why some people don't do it, and I understand why some do.

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

I NEVER said it was worthless.. OWNING the animal has NEVER come into question.. BREEDING it has.. BABIES are culled because of severe issues for multiple reasons.

Most people have had pets with issues.. breeding them is another issue

 

[KelliH]

My guess would be that all Spiders have an issue/flaw with the cerebellum (basically they are brain damaged). The more extreme behavior that goes along with this morph seems to also be triggered by stress sometimes (breeding, shipping etc.). I think that this is just something that goes along hand in hand with this morph and is something that you have to be prepared to deal with if you are going to work with Spiders. The Spider issue is almost identical to the issue with the Enigma morph in leopard geckos. The reason I know that with the Enigmas the behavior is caused by a flaw in the cerebellum is because I sent a large group of leopard geckos consisting of Enigmas, normal looking Enigma siblings, and normal non Enigma siblings to a vet at Texas A & M, where they have been ( and are being) extensively studied. You can do a search on "Enigma behavior" on GeckoForums to find out more about the issues with them. Interestingly enough, the Enigma is also a dominant trait in which there seems to be no visible super form, like the Spider ball python. I wonder have any of the ball python breeders had any inclination to have any of the snakes studied so that they can find out what is going on biologically? Yes it can be expensive but when you are selling snakes for as much money as Spiders have sold for in the past then why not take some of those thousands you are making and put it towards finding out what is really going on with them? That's how I saw it with the Enigmas anyway.

 

[R. Eventide]

I never said that culling was a requirement, nor did I suggest culling for low quality examples of morphs...for what it's worth, I didn't specify BPs, either - they make up a relatively small portion of my collection I don't know (or care) how many animals you keep or breed, but I have around 15 adults (plus a handful or two...or maybe three...of subadults) of different species that I have no intention of breeding. Sure, I could sell them - there isn't really much reason not to - except I tend to keep my animals, even after I decide not to breed them. If I come across a baby with a small notch on the spine, or a minor tail kink - yes, I give them away. If it is something more significant, however, or something I feel is genetic, I have no qualms about culling those babies. That is a decision for each individual keeper, though...and several different arguments can be employed on either side. I'm not interested in debating the pros & cons of culling - I understand why some people don't do it, and I understand why some do.

I guess there's misunderstandings on all sides.

1. I was giving my opinion on culling, as evidenced by the frequent uses of "I" and the phrase, "It's every breeder's decision, of course[.]"

2. I used BPs as an example since that's what we're [mostly] discussing here.

3. Well, low-quality morphs (e.g. brown pastels) were mentioned right alongside other problems, like Spider wobbling, with respect to them returning to the gene pool and having cheap breeders contributing to "problem" snakes. So I took this to mean these were similar unwanted situations (for most of those contributing to this discussion) and compared them as such.

I think culling is relevant to this discussion. It seems to me there are three options when confronted with something akin to a wobbling Spider (not including breeding):

1. Cull them;
2. Sell them or give them away;
3. Keep them as pets.

(3) is great...but can become a problem depending on the size of one's collection. (1), I believe, is cruel and unnecessary when the snake's life and/or quality of life isn't threatened. But the problem with (2), which we have been discussing here, is that selling snakes with possible genetic problems is...well...a problem since they can go back into the breeder pool if purchased by a cheap breeder.

What should be done, then? I guess if someone doesn't feel any qualms about culling, then they will do that. But for those who don't wish to cull for something like a wobbling Spider, we need a different solution. Obviously, people get all uptight about people selling wobbly Spiders for a discounted price. How about selling wobbly Spiders for the same price as a "non-wobbly" Spider? If someone wanted a Spider morph for a pet, they'd have to spend the cost of a Spider morph. This would also keep the "cheap" breeders from purchasing wobbly Spiders just because they're cheaper and the breeder is just looking for a quick buck.

Then again, I'm unable to tell from this thread whether people are having issues with someone selling a wobbly Spider for cheap or because someone is selling a wobbly Spider at all. If the latter, then we're pretty much stuck with (1) or (3) if we can't give the snake away.

Please note, I'm using wobbly Spiders just as an example here, not a be-all and end-all issue. I'm also more than open to suggestions. Also, since there's a lot of misunderstandings/misreading going on here, I'd like to mention that none of my posts are written in anything but a neutral tone; I'm not getting irate at all. I am simply adding my two (well, maybe 8 or 10 by this point) cents to a good discussion.

 

[hhmoore]

I think that the options are somewhat dependent on the severity of the problem. I wouldn't cull a spider that displayed a mild tremor at feeding time...I probably wouldn't even reduce the price on it unless it was pretty darned consistent (though I would absolutely make sure it was accurately described to any potential customer). The question becomes more difficult as the display grows more severe - there is some point at which I would look at an animal and say "I can't sell this". Maybe it isn't bad enough to warrant culling it, in which case I would try to find it a nonbreeding home. How bad is bad enough to cull? That is a highly subjective question, and any person's answer is likely subject to change with the consideration of some variables. I have no qualms about culling when I consider it an appropriate option, and I've never wrestled with the decision for more than a moment or two. When it's the right choice, it's obvious enough.

 

[R. Eventide]

I think that the options are somewhat dependent on the severity of the problem. I wouldn't cull a spider that displayed a mild tremor at feeding time...I probably wouldn't even reduce the price on it unless it was pretty darned consistent (though I would absolutely make sure it was accurately described to any potential customer). The question becomes more difficult as the display grows more severe - there is some point at which I would look at an animal and say "I can't sell this". Maybe it isn't bad enough to warrant culling it, in which case I would try to find it a nonbreeding home. How bad is bad enough to cull? That is a highly subjective question, and any person's answer is likely subject to change with the consideration of some variables. I have no qualms about culling when I consider it an appropriate option, and I've never wrestled with the decision for more than a moment or two. When it's the right choice, it's obvious enough.

I can't argue with any of that. The part I put in bold is pretty much the long and the short of it.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

IMHO

just because an animal has a flaw doesnt mean it is worthless. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. doesn't mean it has to be bred, but it is still worth owning if you haven't already got one.

This is true, regarding the fact that the animal is not worthless. The point is, as was mentioned somewhere above, that you can't guarantee that the person buying a 'pet quality' animal is NOT buying it as a pet but is solely looking for a cheap breeder to make money with!

Exactly.
The problem is that some people look at it as this animal is cheap so if I breed the heck out of it, I can make a lot of money.
That's where the issue is.
IMO, it's about trying to produce quality. The best you can.
Too many people out there breed and sell spiders that look like they are having non stop seizures. Same with one-eyed and kinked animals.

I couldn't agree more, especially with the QUALITY aspect!

i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

And now that you know about this forum, and obviously it has helped you learn a few things...don't you think it's worth the minimum $25 PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!

I NEVER said it was worthless.. OWNING the animal has NEVER come into question.. BREEDING it has.. BABIES are culled because of severe issues for multiple reasons.
Most people have had pets with issues.. breeding them is another issue

Can't disagree with that either, but for some reason we can't get EVERYONE to take that point of view so we have nothing but quality animals on the market...go figure!

Thankfully, I have a beautiful .1 spider that I plan on breeding this season. The only 'wobble' she has, if you can even really call it that, is at feeding. You can bet that when I breed her, she is being bred to a healthy pastel that has good color and no noticeable defects...and that ANY wobblers will be culled whether it's 'freezer time' or I (ME ONLY) decide to keep them as pets. MY goal is to breed the best quality animals that I can; I'm not in it for the money. If I find that my beloved spider consistently throws serious wobblers, she will be retired at some point. I may try different males for research purposes to see if that is a correlation, but that's my personal dinker project if it comes to that.

 

[RJK890]

Quote TigerLilly:
And now that you know about this forum, and obviously it has helped you learn a few things...don't you think it's worth the minimum $25 PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!

How has this forum has helped Zach learn a few things, that would lead him to pay the $25. MINIMUM PER YEAR to be a CONTRIBUTOR?!
He posted a 600g 1. Spider that wobble's, and was totally honest and upfront about it in his ad.
His ad Hijacked, and he has basically been told that he should keep the animal as a pet only, or freeze it. That he just does not get it!... and selling it as a pet only(properly represented) at a reduced price, or even giving it away is somehow unethical because it may make its way into the breeding pool.

I am not saying that he should not become a CONTRIBUTING MEMBER and SUPPORT THE SITE. If he can afford it and feels that it is a worthy cause, he should.
I just don't think that approach is necesarry. I am sure he saw the banners and links in everybody's signature.
That approach will run more people off than it will inspire to pony up.

Here is my opinion on Spiders(again
ALL Spiders either have the wobble at birth, or are capable of developing it at some point in their life. Zach said his did not wobble until 2 -3 years of age.

Some Spiders wobble as hatchlings.
Some may have no sign of it when the breeder ships it out, only to arrive with a wobble triggered by shipping stress.(If it truely did not display it going into the box?)
Others may appear fine until after breeding, and then develope a wobble, triggered from the stress of breeding.

If I hatch out a train wreck, and I mean a SEVERE wobbler, that will have a poor quality of life, it will hit the freezer.
Spiders and Spider combo's that hatch out with what I would consider a minor wobble will be properly represented and sold.

IMO, anybody claiming that their Spiders are from a line of Non-Wobble Spiders is full of and misrepresenting their animals.
There is only one line of Spiders, and just because you throw the siblings that display the wobble as hatchlings in the freezer does not mean it is a wobble free line of Spiders. The others may develope it later on in life.

 

[hhmoore]

And that is why internet forums are so much fun - because not only do people all have their own opinions, and their own ways of expressing them...but we also interpret things we read differently, and have different responses.

 

[Tiger Lilly]

And that is why internet forums are so much fun - because not only do people all have their own opinions, and their own ways of expressing them...but we also interpret things we read differently, and have different responses.

AMEN to that!

In case it was missed...this is why I commented about being a contributor:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zacalaca:
i wish i would've known about these forums four years ago. the guy who produced my spider adults had a non wobbler that sired these, but he probably should've told me. at the same time he paid $7000 for his, so i can understand his motivation to sell rather than scare me away.

Obviously, he HAS learned SOMETHING, and my interpretation of it was that it was something good...from his experience (good or bad) relating to his sale ad, as well as this thread.

MY APOLOGIES IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE BY AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO DRUM UP SUPPORT FOR THE BOI/FAUNACLASSIFIEDS...
I take no responsibility, however, if you interpret my words in any manner other than which they were intended!

 

[RJK890]

MY APOLOGIES IF I HAVE OFFENDED ANYONE BY AGGRESSIVELY TRYING TO DRUM UP SUPPORT FOR THE BOI/FAUNACLASSIFIEDS...
I take no responsibility, however, if you interpret my words in any manner other than which they were intended!

LOL, That is a great disclaimer Troi.