Smoothies

[shadi11]

Just to clear things up - I am not selling known positive dragons. I am breeding large, healthy dragons. I just had my first clutch this year hatch. Every single one hatched out over 4" and they are now 5"+ long at 2 weeks old. They are thriving and growing like crazy. All of my dragons are perfectly fine and I see no reason in the world to stop breeding them. Funny thing is people seem to actually LIKE big, healthy, thriving dragons! If I were among the people who had mass die-offs for some reason, I would stop breeding as well until I got to the bottom of the problem and made the neccesary changes.

I think it is sad that I could not even post a link to something that I thought was interesting without getting my head bitten off. After looking more closely at those pictures, I notice that the animal appears to be a young juvenile. How many of you out there have young juvie dragons with massive fat pads on their heads? And I don't see protruding hip bones. And as far as a wide tail base - once again, give the animal some time to grow before you make that judgement. It just looks to me like a young juvie, possibly female.

I agree with what Bobby pointed out. Breeding one silkback to another silkback would present obvious problems. Perhaps little leather helmets could be made for them during the breeding season. I'm just kidding. No snippy responses please.

I am not saying that breeding this animal is right. I am not saying at this point that it is wrong. Is it not the nature of man to cultivate nature? Look at what we have done with dogs. Cats. Fish. Horses. We've taken what is normal and natural and bent it to fit our needs and desires. Do you think the people who bred hairless dogs and rats are evil? I don't. This is just a typical case of people over-reacting to something that they don't fully understand.
Perhaps disgust is the appropriate reaction in this situation - I don't know the answer to that yet. But for goodness sakes, stop being so hateful about it!

Jamie

I never said that you were breeding them my "you" was a general statement. In reference to the comment about breeders still breeding infected dragons against advise.
I personally have big healthy dragons too.. I have 22-24 inch dragons. Who were intended to be my breeders. Decided to run this test and came up positive. This was my choice. Have I had issues. No not really with them. Thats not the point. My results stated that it was not advisable to sell or breed this dragons. So did whomever else tested positive.
I say personally look what man has done to ruin alot of species. Its happended. Dogs, cats everything.. I dont agree with it.

 

[shadi11]

So far all I have found on these dragons is mid 90s for temps or they will burn. and a lower uvb. They also have to have humidity. Which to me theres a possibility of increased respritory issues then. Maybe not if its low enough.
then the lack of basking spots.. and things to climb.. sounds like an incredibly protective life

 

[Valley Dragons]

Nah, I don't buy the increased respiratory problems. My dragons live in AR. They are used to swimming through the air. It does not bother them, never has, lol.

Jamie

 

[Denisebme]

Okay. So I really thought these looked cool...until I thought what it had to take to create them, and how their care must not be the same as a regular bearded dragon, simply because they have nothing to protect them.

I have a couple of questions that I really hope someone can answer. Weren't we all just told that one of the things that makes a dragons more susceptible to Adenovirus is inbreeding? And, no, I am NOT asking if anyone thinks that Adenovirus is important. I already live the answer to that question.

My other question would be do these dragons have different health standards than regular beardies? The reason I ask is that some of the things we have been taught to look for to show health of regular bearded dragons (such as good fat pads, wide tail bases and padded tailbones) is clearly not present with the silkbacks pictured.

My first thought when I saw these was YUCK! My second thought was yuck, yuck! Not because they aren't a little bit fascinating, but because they ARE fascinating because of the freak factor.
I was born with a rare genetic disorder that has nothing to do with inbreeding, but is still the result of damaged DNA. The genetic "fluke" that creates this isn't really all that cute, when inbreeding happens to the point that it significantly alters the natural characteristics of an animal, all sorts of nasty things can happen. We've seen it with "purebred" dogs for years, in the effort to create something different or standardized, we ended up creating a whole mess of problems that will haunt certain dog breeds forever. Sad that reptiles have become popular enough that we're now doing the same thing to them.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

If ANYONES colony, or even PET dragons have the adenovirus. THEY SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING.

Man, Us Ball Python people would be Strung up and Hung, then drawn and Quartered. Sewn back together, only to be dragged at 90mph across a freeway with somone squeezing Lemon Juice into the Wounds, if we were to continue Selling Animals that carried a virus. IBD anyone? Maybe not so drastic, but DANG. Enough is Enough!

Just like the Scaleless ball pythons, and how so many are against it, why on EARTH should people be breeding and selling Dragons with no scales? Its all wrong....

 

[Tere Salazar]

If ANYONES colony, or even PET dragons have the adenovirus. THEY SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING.

Man, Us Ball Python people would be Strung up and Hung, then drawn and Quartered. Sewn back together, only to be dragged at 90mph across a freeway with somone squeezing Lemon Juice into the Wounds, if we were to continue Selling Animals that carried a virus. IBD anyone? Maybe not so drastic, but DANG. Enough is Enough!

Just like the Scaleless ball pythons, and how so many are against it, why on EARTH should people be breeding and selling Dragons with no scales? Its all wrong....

The sad thing is, Alicia, it's being done, and the animals are the one paying the price. I so wish bearded dragons could talk so they could tell their humans to KNOCK IT OFF!!!

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

The sad thing is, Alicia, it's being done, and the animals are the one paying the price. I so wish bearded dragons could talk so they could tell their humans to KNOCK IT OFF!!!

Well then its up to us to talk for them! and the People that are upstanding in the bearded dragon community should fight it with all they've got! its the only way its going to be stopped.

 

[Denisebme]

Well then its up to us to talk for them! and the People that are upstanding in the bearded dragon community should fight it with all they've got! its the only way its going to be stopped.

There are a lot of people who are afraid at this point to really get involved in the whole Adenovirus issue, and I understand why more than most people. Its been a while since my experience, but it still leaves a very bitter taste when I think of it.
I know good people who have stepped away from breeding completely. I know other people who have just walked away from the communities that support breeders in disgust at the way this situation has been handled. For the most part, people just don't discuss it, no one wants to be vocal about their test results, negative or positive, because no matter what the results say or where you have them done, someone is going to bash you for them.

 

[shadi11]

If ANYONES colony, or even PET dragons have the adenovirus. THEY SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING.

Man, Us Ball Python people would be Strung up and Hung, then drawn and Quartered. Sewn back together, only to be dragged at 90mph across a freeway with somone squeezing Lemon Juice into the Wounds, if we were to continue Selling Animals that carried a virus. IBD anyone? Maybe not so drastic, but DANG. Enough is Enough!

Just like the Scaleless ball pythons, and how so many are against it, why on EARTH should people be breeding and selling Dragons with no scales? Its all wrong....

I fully agree with you. And even though the full effects of IBD hasnt been seen in relation to all the dragons yet, it is supposed to be very similar.
If I remember correctly when IBD started it was first ignored by some. and it got worse. Looks like the same is going to happen here.
The scaleless balls are wrong just as this is. Its taking a handicap and making it show in all of them. Would it be right to do this in people? If someone purposly did that people would be inraged but yet it is ok in animals

 

[shadi11]

Well then its up to us to talk for them! and the People that are upstanding in the bearded dragon community should fight it with all they've got! its the only way its going to be stopped.

And this is a good idea. I am fully behind it. But then theres all that dont listen. or dont care. Those numbers are alot higher. Though sad its true.
Since my dragons were positive I tried to help and get involved and most the time people ended up hurt. And the ones being honest and doing the right thing drug down that rocky road.

 

[Denisebme]

I fully agree with you. And even though the full effects of IBD hasnt been seen in relation to all the dragons yet, it is supposed to be very similar.
If I remember correctly when IBD started it was first ignored by some. and it got worse. Looks like the same is going to happen here.
The scaleless balls are wrong just as this is. Its taking a handicap and making it show in all of them. Would it be right to do this in people? If someone purposly did that people would be inraged but yet it is ok in animals

You're absolutely right Laura. I remember when IBD first made news, and a lot of people didn't take it very seriously at first. It wasn't until it started wiping out whole colonies that people started making a stink about it. It still took the efforts of very reputable people to really make people aware of how devastating it was, and to make serious change in the way the industry did business.
Sadly enough, IBD has still not been eradicated completely, mostly because of the actions of people who just don't care.

 

[shadi11]

You're absolutely right Laura. I remember when IBD first made news, and a lot of people didn't take it very seriously at first. It wasn't until it started wiping out whole colonies that people started making a stink about it. It still took the efforts of very reputable people to really make people aware of how devastating it was, and to make serious change in the way the industry did business.
Sadly enough, IBD has still not been eradicated completely, mostly because of the actions of people who just don't care.

This is my biggest fear in my snakes.. I already had the dragons effected. Knowing there is still IBD I am very choosy of who I get my snakes from.
We have worked about getting the word out about the adeno and the inbreeding issues. And it may take the day that a big breeder steps up because its effected them badly like with IBD and I feel its sad it would have to go to that point knowing what other breeders have gone thru. Even though they arent large breeders its still devistating.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

You're absolutely right Laura. I remember when IBD first made news, and a lot of people didn't take it very seriously at first. It wasn't until it started wiping out whole colonies that people started making a stink about it. It still took the efforts of very reputable people to really make people aware of how devastating it was, and to make serious change in the way the industry did business.
Sadly enough, IBD has still not been eradicated completely, mostly because of the actions of people who just don't care.

Its sad really, but it is the responsibility of ALL of us. People who claim to LOVE these animals. It is OUR job to make these problems known, and Bad or unethical breeders known, and to educate others on how to deal with it, and how to handle those problems if they were to arise.

People should, Who are buying dragons AND Boas and Pythons, be asking breeders the right questions. and while its not very common practice it seems, we should try HARD and make it so. Asking questions like, "Where Did Your Stock Orginate?", "From who did you buy them, and did you produce their offspring yourself?" and "do you know offhand if they produced those animals themselves?" "Have they been tested?" ( for adeno in dragons) and then they should contact THOSE breeders who the person they are buying from, lists. Those few extra emails could help save a person money, or get them a 100% Healthy animal. And with everyone asking those questions, eventually they will be easier and easier to answer as time goes on, because more people will be educated about the animals they have, and those around them.
Sure it sounds like a ton of work now, but its all for the future of the captive bred population, so why the heck not?

This information, as impossible as it sounds, NEEDS to be openly available, and those covering it all up, or keeping quiet need to freaking KNOCK it off. Sure, youre a greedy SOAB, but you know what, if you care about these animals as much as you say you do, DO SOMETHING about it. cause, frankly, you wont be making much money if people find out about that....

Why should everyone else, and ALL of these animals suffer because of these peoples greed for cash, or their NEED to have babies always available? How much harder is it to look for, and keep clean colonies of dragons? How hard is it to use proper quarantine procedures, and prevent diseases like this from spreading? honestly... is it SO hard that a person cant pay attention to these things?

 

[Denisebme]

And this is a good idea. I am fully behind it. But then theres all that dont listen. or dont care. Those numbers are alot higher. Though sad its true.
Since my dragons were positive I tried to help and get involved and most the time people ended up hurt. And the ones being honest and doing the right thing drug down that rocky road.

Another post I am in complete agreement with.
I really took a beating on the BOI when I took a stand on AV, it was not a pleasant experience and the people who know me well know that not only did I lose sleep over it, I was actually reduced to tears, not a normal state for me. Its amazing how personal the attacks became, and I wasn't out trying to change the world, I never attacked any breeders, I just shared my experiences, and was very naive about the way this community works when it feels threatened.
It was a learning experience.

 

[Tere Salazar]

This is my biggest fear in my snakes.. I already had the dragons effected. Knowing there is still IBD I am very choosy of who I get my snakes from.
We have worked about getting the word out about the adeno and the inbreeding issues. And it may take the day that a big breeder steps up because its effected them badly like with IBD and I feel its sad it would have to go to that point knowing what other breeders have gone thru. Even though they arent large breeders its still devistating.

Unfortunately, Laura, I think the large breeders would rather try their hardest to convince anyone who'll listen that it doesn't matter, it's no big deal...then turn around and do the same about inbreeding. All the morphs started somehow...isn't that what some keep saying? Well, I'm sorry. But what's in those pictures isn't a morph...it's a mutation...a freak of nature...and the thought that someone is going to capitalize on that is sickening.

I wonder how many corkscrew tails and crooked backs this one will produce?

 

[Denisebme]

Unfortunately, Laura, I think the large breeders would rather try their hardest to convince anyone who'll listen that it doesn't matter, it's no big deal...then turn around and do the same about inbreeding. All the morphs started somehow...isn't that what some keep saying? Well, I'm sorry. But what's in those pictures isn't a morph...it's a mutation...a freak of nature...and the thought that someone is going to capitalize on that is sickening.

I wonder how many corkscrew tails and crooked backs this one will produce?

Its also not completely true that all of the color phases are the result of inbreeding. Lizards adapt to their environment, in the wild, lizards who live in areas with specific soil colors will blend to their environment. Where I live there is a horned toad that lives in an area with a high clay and iron content in the soil and the soil is very red, the horned toads have adapted and are orange. Catch two of them and breed them and you get orange babies. Its simple species adaption to their environment. Travel 5 miles from the area where the orange horned toads exist and they are once again normal colored.
I point this out because there is a big difference between selective breeding to continue certain natural morphs, and inbreeding to exploit a genetic abnormality.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Its also not completely true that all of the color phases are the result of inbreeding. Lizards adapt to their environment, in the wild, lizards who live in areas with specific soil colors will blend to their environment. Where I live there is a horned toad that lives in an area with a high clay and iron content in the soil and the soil is very red, the horned toads have adapted and are orange. Catch two of them and breed them and you get orange babies. Its simple species adaption to their environment. Travel 5 miles from the area where the orange horned toads exist and they are once again normal colored.
I point this out because there is a big difference between selective breeding to continue certain natural morphs, and inbreeding to exploit a genetic abnormality.

Also, on the Inbreeding note.

While some are 100% against inbreeding, it is not Uncommon in the wild that siblings or offspring and the parent to have a pairing.

Linebreeding can be done correctly, and incorrectly. it is not something one plays with and continues to do. It can be an easy way to prove or disprove a certain trait, but after one or even two lines in, those animals should never be inbred again to those of the same line. Outcrossing animals is NOT hard. Sure it takes longer to prove a trait this way, but at least then you are Broadening the genetic diversity of those animals.

Take a look at some lines of albino animals. Youll see what i mean. There is Correct Linebreeding, and Incorrect Surrounding this entire hobby. All it takes is a little patience. But of course, those dollar signs are far more interesting to look at, when a quick sale is in ones mind.

 

[Denisebme]

Also, on the Inbreeding note.

While some are 100% against inbreeding, it is not Uncommon in the wild that siblings or offspring and the parent to have a pairing.

Linebreeding can be done correctly, and incorrectly. it is not something one plays with and continues to do. It can be an easy way to prove or disprove a certain trait, but after one or even two lines in, those animals should never be inbred again to those of the same line. Outcrossing animals is NOT hard. Sure it takes longer to prove a trait this way, but at least then you are Broadening the genetic diversity of those animals.

Take a look at some lines of albino animals. Youll see what i mean. There is Correct Linebreeding, and Incorrect Surrounding this entire hobby. All it takes is a little patience. But of course, those dollar signs are far more interesting to look at, when a quick sale is in ones mind.

Alicia, I could absolutely HUG you for that post.

 

[whiskersmom]

It has been said to me a few times now that this is a natural occurence in the wild and while that may be so, these pitiful dragons aren't in the wild, so that arguement, in my book, is moot.
They are being put in a small enclosure and basically forced to mate. This is wrong.
I've been writing some different agencies about this and hopefully this can be stopped. I realize that the U.S. don't really have alot of regulations when it comes to reptiles, especially the care and ethical threatment of them but there may be something. Too bad we weren't more like Austria. In Austria - you, your animals and their enclosures are inspected yearly. If something isn't right, you are fined and then if still not fixed, the bearded dragon is removed from your care. I can't see a place like that allowing something like this.

 

[shadi11]

It is alot easier to ignore the problem. I agree.. And thats what they are doing. Its not an issue.. All dragons have it. we have heard it all. I do not believe it is in all dragons. but I do believe that it will be if its not stopped. Then what? No more captive dragons because of ignorance? It is horrible what they have done to those who stand up for the testing of dragons. I have seen it and been thru it myself.
When right now we could be very selective and breed the negatives and try to fix this somehow. What shold matter doesnt.
And with people being convinced its ok its going to continue to be worse.
The breeding of the smoothie I think is wrong. As stated before. to maintain something with special needs for the thrill factor it has, no matter what harm it brings on the dragons.. So very sad.