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Info Tammy & Kevin-Business and morals? Enough is enough

Lucille said:
Sister, you've come to the wrong place if you think you can command others what to post, and what not to post.
I'm perfectly willing to change my mind if you provide the proper evidence, but as it sits now, in my opinion your ad is fraudulent and that reflects badly on you and the way you started this whisper campaign by posting with no names and then supplying them privately is cowardly.
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And so your gona make accusations of fraud to us? Wheres some proof, we never sold an animal under any false pretenses or without devaluing all information about the animal. You shouldn't make such accusations on people.
And sister you shouldnt come on here and think your gona tell us what I can and can't post. I don't care what you believe about anything. I know what was done was wrong and that's all that matters, I know now who are actually my friends and who the sharks and narks are.

cmalchow said:
This is what I have been told. I did not ask to see their PM's. I didn't feel the need since I had your side of the story all ready. Maybe I have been lied to that these other PM's exist but this is what I was told. Maybe I was wrong to believe others that the PM I got was not the only one in existence but I did believe them since they seemed to know your story already without seeing my PM. So if that is the truth I apologize. With Tammy's comment of she will tell because she thinks people should know. I have no choice but to assume that she did in fact tell other people.
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Everything that is going on right now is based on proof no one wants to believe he did what he did without proof, so it would stand to reason that if you will be making accusations of what was said and the such then proof should be given, and either way you look at it you told Tammy you wouldn't say anything and you did that makes you a proven liar by your own doing. Again I have proof where is yours?

starsevol said:
Ah, you are right! But it was said by one of them.
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This is kevin and will be, but I will speak for Tammy and she will be communicated through me here on this since she was posted in it too.
 
WebSlave said:
Warning: It had better be. Sharing accounts on this site is NOT allowed. That's the entire reason behind having a FULL NAME rule here. Any statements made NEED to have explicit ownership.
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They brought her name into it, how is she to speak? I am posting and relaying the correct information through both our defense.
 
Lucille said:
She can apply for her own separate account.
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Cause she has nothing better to do, no thanks I will just relay all the information if I ever have enough time to get it all together. I'm not sure I will be keeping any accounts after all of this is done, this is ridiculous.
 
exar15xe said:
Everything that is going on right now is based on proof no one wants to believe he did what he did without proof, so it would stand to reason that if you will be making accusations of what was said and the such then proof should be given, and either way you look at it you told Tammy you wouldn't say anything and you did that makes you a proven liar by your own doing. Again I have proof where is yours?
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You have proof? I POSTED YOUR PROOF!!! I posted what I said so I am not hiding or lying. I did it, YES!!! I will not post others PM's saying that there are other PM's from you. Why would I subject them to being called sharks and narks as well?

I would severely recommend taking a small break from replying to people here. Gather your emails and proof that John wronged you and post them. You keep crying that no one is asking for those, Well I am. If they exist then post them prove your case. You have been recommended on here and cs.com to do that and your not, WHY?

You said you had photo proof of the snake slugging out in our PM. John posted the picture of her with what looks like fertile eggs. You said you had proof of what I said, I posted it. So far everyone is posting your proof for you which is not making a very good case. I am sorry.
 
exar15xe said:
I'm sorry I don't blame animals, they don't know the difference,
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I think what Beth meant was, the snake is the only one who can consent, or not, to breeding. In which case, _she_ is to blame. But I'm pretty sure it isn't really the snake's choice. Out in the wild, she would send out pheromones, signaling to available males that she was physiologically in a state to accept breeding, and to have that breeding result in fertilization. She would then go on to mate, if conditions were to her liking.

In captivity, we just have to guess by whatever means we have available, when the female's physiological condition is ready for mating. We may try once a week till she consents, or keep the pair together, or brumate and hope schedules align, or not brumate and just start trying after the first shed of the new year, or put them together when there is a thunderstorm, or try to get her in the mood by misting or leaving her shed skin in with the pair or playing Barry White. There are so many ways we can completely misread the female's timetable and fail.

In the end, though, it all comes down to the female snake being ready, having access to a male when she is ready, and finding the male that we provide her with to her liking, when she is ready.
 
cmalchow said:
You have proof? I POSTED YOUR PROOF!!! I posted what I said so I am not hiding or lying. I did it, YES!!! I will not post others PM's saying that there are other PM's from you. Why would I subject them to being called sharks and narks as well?

I would severely recommend taking a small break from replying to people here. Gather your emails and proof that John wronged you and post them. You keep crying that no one is asking for those, Well I am. If they exist then post them prove your case. You have been recommended on here and cs.com to do that and your not, WHY?

You said you had photo proof of the snake slugging out in our PM. John posted the picture of her with what looks like fertile eggs. You said you had proof of what I said, I posted it. So far everyone is posting your proof for you which is not making a very good case. I am sorry.
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You need to post proof just like you expect me to if your gona say I sent Pm's to other ppl which I didn't. I am not going to go thought the trouble of proofing but everyone else can accuse and say with no proof to me.

I am trying but you just keep on going and going and going on with the same crap. I didn't cry no one is asking for my proof ... I'm saying your making accusations on me! and not post proof. Ya you posted your pm to tammy and her reply in which you said you would not say anything to any one unless she asked you to. But you did anyways....that only proved you lied to her so don't say anything else you are not willing to back up with proof.

And not me but Tammy said " Later on come to find out (with photo proof) he bred her before, and she slugged out." We had photos of the breeding please don't make assumptions of what things really are. See the comma the next sentence is separated from the 1st. She never said she had photo proof of the snake slugging out you are just twisting to suit your purpose.

Your not proving anything other than you lied, and you are twisting sentences to start more drama. Now if you will leave me alone I have work to do.
 
I agree with you, Kevin. This is ridiculous. I don't think you have a leg to stand on, yet here you are talking about working two jobs and potential 2nd-generation offspring.
 
I seriously don't understand what is so hard to grasp about what Lucille is saying.

1) If you believe that the seller should refund you for the snake, then obviously you believe something is wrong with the snake.

2) If you believe something is wrong with the snake, you should SAY SO in your ad.

3) You can't demand a refund for a "defective" snake and also try to sell it as being free of defects. It's hypocritical to say the very least.
 
I'm thinking that if you are involved in a situation whereas you know you will be found a "bad guy" on the BOI, you really need to look at your motives and reconsider your actions. Reputations shatter so quickly and are very slow to mend and I really think Kevin and Tammy should consider this. They may be hurting themselves irrepairably right now.

So far they have provided no proof that John had set out to scam them or hurt them in any way.
 
I'm still waiting for some kind of proof that the original seller did anything wrong.

I don't care about who got PM's after the post at cs.com, because those aren't pertinent to the original question. Was there wrongdoing on the part of zorro when he sold this animal? At this point, I cannot fathom how zorro could or even should be held accountable for anything that has transpired with this snake in the last 2 years. This snake is:

1-female
2-fertile

With that said, zorro has fulfilled his ethical obligations to the purchaser. The fact that the purchaser has failed to provide adequately for this female to reproduce is an error of husbandry, not a genetic defect in the animal.

Everything else is hoopla, especially the "he said; she said" BS that stemmed from the cs.com thread...
 
You know guys I do have responsibilities to my animals to care for them and a job that requires my attention so sorry I'm not fitting this in you timeline. Idk if the female is fertile if she makes duds.

So a question while I work, I am asking....a question for all simply and only this nothing else..... is it ok for me to sell you an animal that I bred previously and that duded out, but not tell you it did even if I know you are buying the animal with the intent of breeding it? Answer me that and that only if you can.

I am working on it and my more important obligations.

Thank you.
 
exar15xe said:
Idk if the female is fertile if she makes duds.
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As far as your question, there are so many variables- husbandry, the male snake, etc. that you are trying to theorize your case instead of providing all the proof you said you had. You aren't too busy for a whisper campaign. You aren't too busy for these retorts. You just seem to be too busy to provide proof.



King_of_Colubrids said:
I'm still waiting for some kind of proof that the original seller did anything wrong.

I don't care about who got PM's after the post at cs.com, because those aren't pertinent to the original question. Was there wrongdoing on the part of zorro when he sold this animal? At this point, I cannot fathom how zorro could or even should be held accountable for anything that has transpired with this snake in the last 2 years. This snake is:

1-female
2-fertile

With that said, zorro has fulfilled his ethical obligations to the purchaser. The fact that the purchaser has failed to provide adequately for this female to reproduce is an error of husbandry, not a genetic defect in the animal.

Everything else is hoopla, especially the "he said; she said" BS that stemmed from the cs.com thread...
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Excellent post
 
starsevol said:
I'm thinking that if you are involved in a situation whereas you know you will be found a "bad guy" on the BOI, you really need to look at your motives and reconsider your actions. Reputations shatter so quickly and are very slow to mend and I really think Kevin and Tammy should consider this. They may be hurting themselves irrepairably right now.

So far they have provided no proof that John had set out to scam them or hurt them in any way.
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Just for reference we didn't start this John did, we've said nothing for 2 years. I don't know what his motives are but as the person on this side of the fence I can make my own assumptions as to why he has chosen to do this like this as well. He could have dealt with all of this differently too. Tammy was simply looking for console from friends for her frustration on cs. The end. you all are the ones dragging us thought the mud for the sake of your relationship with him. That's what's really happening.
 
That's why I don't have proof for you RIGHT now! I don't make statements I can't back so you will just have to wait for me to find them or forget about it sorry.
 
There is proof that the female produced eggs. John has also stated that the clutch dudded out. It is entirely possible that the eggs were fertile, but there was an incubation fluke that lead to the death of the clutch. We will not know, because there was no record of that.
The eggs pictured in the photograph look like fertile eggs, as several other people have stated. Being breeders yourself, I'm sure you know that not all clutches go to full term, and things often happen in the incubation process that is beyond our control.
 
exar15xe said:
So a question while I work, I am asking....a question for all simply and only this nothing else..... is it ok for me to sell you an animal that I bred previously and that duded out, but not tell you it did even if I know you are buying the animal with the intent of breeding it?
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I think it would be _of interest_, if a person kept accurate enough records. Females lay slugs all the time- bred or not bred- even virgins. I think I'd rather purchase a female that had laid _something_. At least you know she is producing ova. And is absolutely sexed correctly.
 
What I have only used the term proven breeder when there is live offspring from that said snake. I never use that term with a female that lays slugs and has never had hatchlings from. So yes some of the blame can be said if that female is said to be a proven breeder and is sold to a breeder with that breeder thinking and trusting said breeder that the female has produced no problem and has gotten live offspring from. So yes I can see some blame on that breeder. In all context no one can grantee hets or breed ability.
 
Cent_Phillips said:
What I have only used the term proven breeder when there is live offspring from that said snake. I never use that term with a female that lays slugs and has never had hatchlings from. So yes some of the blame can be said if that female is said to be a proven breeder and is sold to a breeder with that breeder thinking and trusting said breeder that the female has produced no problem and has gotten live offspring from. So yes I can see some blame on that breeder. In all context no one can grantee hets or breed ability.
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The eggs in that picture don't look like slugs to me. And these people complaining haven't gotten her to lay eggs at all, fertile or not.
 
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