The Disturbing Trend of Price Slashing in the reptile hobby/industry

[Fred Albury]

Okay..after sitting back and watching...a few thoughts...

Guys/Gals,

After sitting back and reading these posts, studying the writing styles, I thought I'd chime in for a minute.

I totally agree with John Apples assertion that *Quality* rules in the long run......

But I also agree with Neil...when he stated that you have to be realistic and that it is a customers market now and NOT a sellers, quality or no quality.............................................


I have been a vendor at Southern Calif/ Arizona Reptile Shows for the past 8 years. I probably attend 8-10 shows a year.
From *MY* observations as a vendor, as well as a customer(Face it guys we buy as much as we sell) I have noticed the following trends:

I've noticed an INCREASED number of BROKERS at any given show, so many in fact that I have to actually Search to find an actual breeder. Oftentimes there are nomore than 10-15 actual Breeders per show, the rest being wholesalers and what I like to cal"quick buck" resellers, guys that buy from wholesalers, take the snakes to a show, slap them on the table and move them, often never to be seen from ever again.
I've noticed an INCREASE in the number of *cheap* disposable animals for sale at these shows, esp iguanas, sulcattas,corn snakes, w/c ball pythons(Often sold as "captive bred" by people who have good reputations for breeding ball morphs..go figure)
*Cheap* insects, wild caught lizards, cheap garters, watersnakes and of course tables of small red eared sliders, each barely over the 4 inch mark..dirt cheap.
I've ALSO noticed that often even *RARE* animals are represented by high end BROKERS, who didnt produce them and though they visualy have great stuff, cant give you the track record or genetics on any particular snake. I don't know you, but if I am plunking down $100'-$1000's of dollars of hard earned cash, I want to know everything.

Finally..I have sadly noticed *vendors* dropping their prices on their stock so that they can succesfully sell THEIR stock out, even if it bastardizes the industry, the product that they are selling(snakes?) and the show itself. They could have EASILY wholesaled the whole lot out to another breeder and helped maintain the market value of the snakes they themselves worked so hard to produce.

ALL THESE THINGS ARE PERMISSBLE
BUT NOT ALL ARE *TRULY* BENEFICIAL

At a show last year, I had a customer come up to me to INQUIRE about a snake that I breed, the Eastern Indigo Snake. I produce a limited number of eggs from my colony every year. This gentleman talked to me about the snakes, the price, and..despite reading my webpage on them(On Renegade Reptiles website AND aztecreptiles.cjb.net) he asked a boat load of questions.
No problem...I gave him some of what John Apple calls "Quality customer service" that is supposed to set me apart.
At the end he asked me if I would take $100.00 less than my asking price.
Now...Eastern Indigos are hard to breed, have a high infertility rate and often die in the egg pre/hatch. So production is a hit or miss affair even on good years.
I told him no....

He then marched over to another vendor, who happened to be a reptile store, that BOUGHT their Indigos from a breeder who was dumb enough to wholesale them out, plunked down his cash and bought an indigo, for $125.0 less than mine cost.

Then he marched BACK over to my booth...snake in hand, and proceeded to ask me questions about the snake, straight faced, as if I were an information portal. I told him , with disgust, to ask the people he bought the thing from. He allready had.. They didnt know squat about them. this guy just spent $450.00 and he cant even get a care sheet from the seller. I have seen him at other shows and his snake has given him multiple problems, which he had to figure out and go online to have answered.

Well..........Think about it. What did he think about most, value most?

***********PRICE***********************

And THAT is what all these resellers, and brokers bank on.
I truly believe that people could care less about quality and more about price in this crummy industry. I believe, after watching buyers and sellers over the years, that an honest, ethical, disciplined, virtually unknown breeder of high quality reptiles could go broke in this industry QUICKLY, even on a small basis.
the cost of the booth, of travel, hotels, food, snakes food, cageing , electricity, internet classified ads, websites, flyers,
allCHOP into whatever small profit is made..and thats WITHOUT the vendor paying HIMSELF for his OWN TIME, WHICH is IRREPLACEABLE.

John apple, I admire your commitment to quality, I am the same way and truly try to educate my customers and sell them snakes that are a good"fit" for their skill/knowledge level.
But I am REALISTIC enough to know that there is no money in quality, not with the public clamoring for low prices, not with brokers increasing at every venue, not with Breeders slashing prices AT the shows..

Sorry..but I think that Neal hit it on the head. The customer is running this ship....right into the ground, and if you want to make money, you had better cater to their ever cheapening tastes..and...dont forget to be overly supportive and educational while your at it, lest your "competition" take away a sale.

Which is why I will never make any real money at this.
I would rather have he quality, customer service and education than make big bucks. After all, originally this DEFINETLY wasnt about money, except SPENDING IT on more snakes for my COLLECTION>

Thank you one and all for posting on this thread.


Sincerely,

Fred Albury

AZTEC REPTILES

 

[John Apple]

Hey Fred
Nice pic of the eastern Indigo, man I can remember catching them snakes in Florida many years ago.

'But I am REALISTIC enough to know that there is no money in quality, not with the public clamoring for low prices, not with brokers increasing at every venue, not with Breeders slashing prices AT the shows..'

Fred How many of those price slashing breeders stick with it as long as you or I would, and how many snakes have died from these breeders
What I am saying is quality in the long run will pay off, being realistic here and all.
These brokers new and old do not last that long that is the trend I saw in Florida and here in Lovely Southern Michigan.
I agree with Neil at some point but not on all points.
Human nature is a big competition and from what I have seen lowballers and easy brokers do not last long
quality does and customer service does

 

[Classic Dum's]

Fred I think your being a little harsh here

BROKERS, who didnt produce them and though they visualy have great stuff, cant give you the track record or genetics on any particular snake

Was that the case with your Mad Ground boas? I highly doubt it I know who they came from and you knew what you were getting when you bought those. You only had those for a few months and I seen them listed on kingsnake for sale for more then you paid. So really all you have done was buy those from a broker and broker them yourself.

I've noticed an INCREASED number of BROKERS at any given show

To me all that says is the reptile trade is doing really good. They will be the first to go when the reptile trade starts to slide. The people such as you or myself and many other who are not dependent on reptiles for an income will be here far longer because we dont have to make a profit to support this.

Often sold as "captive bred" by people who have good reputations for breeding ball morphs..go figure

I gotta agree with you on that, there one very repitable breeder that sets up shows out here(maybe out there to i dunno) thats has tons of baby balls trying to pass them off as captive. Its not him selling these that bothers me its the missrepresentation. Also it irks the he!l out of me when you see all these fancy black backs and "higher dollar" baby imports sitting on their table fat and healthy as can be. Then underneath are all the "normal" balls that came in the exact same bag skinny, full of ticks, water blisters etc. but because he can get more for the "fancy balls" he takes better care of them, that just drives me insane

even if it bastardizes the industry

its a free market im not trying to be hypocritical, because I fuss about it to, but what it comes down to is its a free market, we all just fuss when its not in our favor

He then marched over to another vendor

do you think its going to be any differant with your male Mad Ground your selling cheap? someone is going to buy that and take a chance before paying full price else where, next time hell proablly buy from you, you know how Dumerils are, they can be a pain, you wouldnt believe how many times I have gone through this. Theres more money in internet sales then shows. If I need money I sell it over the net. My high pink Dumerils Ill have people fighting over for $175 or so when market value on Dumerils is $125, at shows I just have to wait out all the other vendors with Dumerils before ill sell any. Sometmes Ill get someone who shows up and knows my line from the net and wont have a problem with my prices but for the most part if I am going to sell a Dumerils at a show i gotta out wiat the other vendors. This year at Chicago zoological had like 20 or so of them for $115 they sold all of them on Saturday, I didnt sell a single one, sunday I sold a ton of them, near as I could tell we were the only ones there with them.

but I still think a quality sale brings about more quality customers

if someone is spending say $500+ I can agree, but ive seen to much to agree with for less then say the $500 range. ATB's ive seen people pay $100 for a colored one that a child could tell was under weight and sickly when the next table down had them for $150 so I think it depends on the amount being spent

Believe me.... they DON'T blame themselves....

Neil I think that has to do more with your store then anything, I can tell your store is a differant kind of enviroment then most and considering the animals you guys are selling I would think most people come in there a little more educated then the normal people who walk in petco, if they were educated would they really buy from petco? I am sure you got one in your town somehwere. I used to stoc a pet store here in town and ill tell ya what NO ONE the store, they should have but didnt, when I first started stocking it I had complete control, throughout time the took t away and the problems started, they wernt feeding right, temps were all off, stressing the animals because if they didnt eat or there were crickets left they would lay in there for days crawling all over the animal, then they would sell it and because of the stress endurded while in they store it would die, the people always though it was their fault, needless to say I dont stock them anymore, this wasnt petco so the people trusted the store, the only people i seen that blaimed the store were the idiots who killed the animals themselves. so i guess it a doube edged sword

 

[dwedeking]

They could have EASILY wholesaled the whole lot out to another breeder and helped maintain the market value of the snakes they themselves worked so hard to produce.

But then doesn't the breeder become the "evil broker"?

There are many skill sets required to run a successful business. It is nearly impossible to possess all the skill sets required to run all facets of a business. If you do not wish to compete at the retail level then locate a breeder/broker/dealer with the same value system as yourself and wholesale to him.


Economic darwinism will take care of those without a sound business plan. The guy selling animals below what it costs to produce them will whither on the vine as it just can't be maintained in the long run. My only concern is the point Rich brought up, how many prospective customers are lost because they sour on the hobby due to a poor experience as a first purchase.

 

[Fred Albury]

Some MORE OPINIONS and rants.....

Wow!! Who new so much*response* could come from just my humble *opinions*?

Daniel(Dwede king)

Your quote:
quote:

But then doesn't the breeder become the "evil broker"?

Frankly, no it doesnt. If a Breeder who produced an animal, knows about the parents and the track record for that animal, chooses to sell it to ANOTHER BREEDER at the show for a cheaper price, RATHER than put the same animal on his table and "compete" by lowering his prices drastically...then I call that a good thing, and not true brokering as BOTH parties have knowledge of the snakes history or at least feeding record and general overall health. Aside from that, they both profit because the public doesnt get the unclear, unrealistic message that these gems can be produced for mere pennies on the dollar.



Jason, my old nemisis,

My quote:
"BROKERS, who didnt produce them and though they visualy have great stuff, cant give you the track record or genetics on any particular snake"



Your response:"Was that the case with your Mad Ground boas? I highly doubt it I know who they came from and you knew what you were getting when you bought those. You only had those for a few months and I seen them listed on kingsnake for sale for more then you paid. So really all you have done was buy those from a broker and broker them yourself."



Point WELL MADE Jason, when I bought the pair I knew EXACTLY what I was getting into. I bought them from a broker that came highly recomended by people i respect in this industry, of which you were one. After about 3 months of sheer frustration trying to get the male to eat, I put them up for sale. They stayed up for sale.........forever!! lol But dureing the time I had them I developed some type of track record with their feeding and behaviour, granted not much of one given the time frame, bot some. Now.....I have had snakes, my striped bci for example , that I bought, kept(For 1 year) and decided to sell at the 8 month mark due to a variety of reasons(Obsessive compulsive disorder, bills, need cage space, saw something I wanted even more etc etc) Since I have had them for so long, practice quarantine, fed and shed records and fecals, I have a VERY good idea where these snakes are health wise and temparment wise.

Does this make me a broker, in the truest sense?
In my *opinion*, NO it doesnt.

I say Broker like its a dirty word, and I am sorry but for the vast majority of them ,I feel like it IS. the ones I am Most familiar with are the ones that buy a snake from a breeder, or perhaps buy ouit a whole collection, search the newspaper classifieds for hapless souls that just need to"Get rid "of their ball pythons, or boa, then turn the thing over, usually on the net, but sometimes at shows
without even keeping it long enough to see if it eats, sheds, or has any problems.

**THEN** the new customer , buying this snake from them, has it get sick and DIE on them.
They TRY and get a refund, but to no avail, the most they can get if they are lucky, is another equally misrepresented animal in ill
health.

The END RESULT?

Just another potential hobbyist disgusted and walking away from this hobby for good..................


Yes, it is indeed a free market, but in my opinion, when I see a large number of Brokers or resellers at shows, and MORE IMPORTANTLY..a DECREASED number of breeders, that Doesnt feel very positive to me.
Why?
Heck, I am just like anyone else..I wanna buy something too!And I feel MUCH more comfortable buying from the person tghat produced it then buying from a broker that cant tell me anything about it, other than the type of snake and price tag.



The ball pythons..I am totally with you there Jason, I have seen the same thing, high end balls being treated like"gems" and w/c babies being sold from under the table as c/b while they suffer ticks and stuck bad sheds. Drives me nuts too, especially this part: From the outside it looks so glossy and professional, but underneath its a make-some-money-at-all-costs venture cloaked in reputations undeserved given the actions.
_____________________________________________________And lastly.......IN MY OPINION...someone that plunks $400.00 down is going to be worried about quality, because $400.00 is a nice chunk of change to spend on something you DONT need.


as for me, I intend to keep what I like, breed it, buy more things I like, hopefully breed them, and continue in this manner. ason sdaid it best, since neither he nor I depend on this for our livelyhood, will be around years from now..primarily BECAUSE we do this because we really like what we work with...regardless of the sales outcome.


Harsh?

Naw....this isnt even close to harsh. Lol



Thanks all,

Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES
____________________________________________________
AZTEC REPTILES

Specializing in: Eastern Indigo Snakes, Mexican Cribos(Rubidus) Argentine boa Constrictors, Albino Colombian Boas, Suriname Boa Constrictors,Western Hognose,Northern pinesnakes, locality specific bullsnakes,Cal. kingsnakes and in the future: Striped Red Blood Pythons,Maxx Pink Argentines, Mad Grnd Boas

Come to our website for more info:

www.aztecreptiles.cjb.net

And MY webpage at:
www.renegadereptiles.com(Indigopage)

 

[Pennebaker]

Not only how many potential reptile lovers/collectors are lost due to a bad first experience, but how many of those people then turn around against us.
They buy a reptile, it dies, they figure that reptiles are just too hard to keep alive and think how many die in the hands of people every year--before you know if they are signing up for the ban of reptiles as pets. And have personal experience to back it up.
I see the seeds of it planted at every show. The family buying the 12 year old daughter her first bearded dragon--they go to the table where they are $25, 3 inches long, skinny, eyes closed. How many days do you think that animal lived? And the little girl is crushed, the parents upset....

Dana

 

[dwedeking]

Fred,

Since you don't require the income to survive you have an even better platform to let the low ballers drive themselves out of the business. The way to compete with low ballers is to wait them out as their entire business plan is flawed and will self destruct.

A broker is a person that buys another's animal with the intent to resell. A bad broker buys unknown animals from unknown breeders/collectors and turns these animals around rapidly with little concern for the animal or the customer. A good broker finds reliable, honest breeders, builds relationships with them with long term goals, provides customer service and quality animals to the consumer. A broker is still a broker, good or bad is how you do it.

 

[Fred Albury]

Dana/Pennybaker,


Yes, I *totally* agree, their first experience keeping herps is probably shot to hell. And i say again..if that person that sold them the dragon were a small breeder, that looked at their beardes as something they love and would gladly shell out money for,something they would *make sure* didnt get sold when it wasnt feeding or was sick, do you think that this whole scenario would even occur?


now..I know a few brokers who are VERY ethical people..VERY. And I have either bought from them, or wish I had. because these guys know that reptile BREEDERS/VENDORS *ARENT* going to purchase anything of value from the broker that you mentioned above..the one with near dead beardeds on their table..


Frankly...the person that impressed me most since I have been in this hobby I met at a reptile show 12 years ago.

She had a pair of sinaloans, unrelated adults.
She bred them, produced offspring.
She brought the two breeders to the show for people to SEE(Not touch)
She brought the babies from this pair to the show:

Each one had a feed and shed record
Each one was correctly sexed
Each one had undergone their 3rd shed
Each one was correctly labled
Each one came with a care sheet
And...she wouldnt sell you pairs!
She would direct you to another fellow breeder to buy an unrelated snake from him...
And her prices were fair for the market.

At the end of the day, after I picked her brain for info, I reveled in this fact: she completely sold out all her babies

THAT is the kind of person that in my opinion, I admire

she really put in the extra effort and this for a inexpensive snake



Thanks

Fred

 

[dwedeking]

At the end of the day, after I picked her brain for info, I reveled in this fact: she completely sold out all her babies

I think this what I've been trying to say. If you take the high road your sales will match (maybe not today, or tomorrow but over the long run). Doesn't matter if your selling 1 snake or 20 snakes at a show the quality will shine through over time.

 

[napavalleysnakes]

There are some excellent points being brought up in this thread.
Those of us that have been in the business of buying/breeding/ selling reptiles for any length of time know that it's a cyclical market. Sometimes it is up for us, sometimes it's down

Here's a few key points I'll address:

1) The market has seen swings like this for as long as I can remember, so it is nothing new. It happens with every market, not just reptiles. That's where the planning Dana and Dana spoke of comes into play. The reptile market will eventually rebound, and those that did not plan well enough, will basically be no more. Whenever a market is hot, you get a ton of people trying to milk it for every cent they can get. Once the funds start drying up, and the competition becomes too fierce, well that's when they bolt. That's what I've seen at the shows we've set up at lately. I'll bet 1/4 of the people at the San Diego IRBA this past October will not be there next season. They'll have priced themselves right out of the hobby.. Simple economics..

2) I, like Jason, disagree with Fred and his assessment of brokers. I breed a majority of the animals I sell, yet do broker animals on occassion.
My criteria for animals I broker is as stringent as for those I breed.
It has gotten to the point now that when I do buy an animal, it comes from someone I trust in the industry. I almost always ask for photos of the parents nowadays. Why ? For the reason Fred spoke of, I want to know the history of the animal I'm purchasing.
Brokers are not bad, as I have quite a few friends in the business that would consider themselves brokers, and sell outstanding animals.
My word for describing the individuals I believe Fred is alluding to would be "Sharks". They grab all the animals they can at the lowest prices they can and then set up a table at a show. I've seen it at every show I've attended. You can usually tell them apart from a breeder by the way their table is set up. Nine million miscellaneous animals and all at a fraction of the average price.
Daniel and John and Dana all made excellent points on this subject. These are the people that are in it for the profit, the short duration, and a tight market will ensure their extinction.

3) Quality breeders will always have a market share. I believe if you breed quality, you'll always have customers. Some of my best customers are repeat customers. They have certain animals they want and they will wait until I either produce them, or acquire them from source I deem reliable. If you continue to satisy these customers you will continue to earn their business. That's the main message of this paragraph, "earning business".
To be successful you need the support of your customers. Let's face it, they control the market, not us
Neil made a great point when responding to another post. We need to do everything we can to satisfy our customers (example was printing up caresheets). This not only means the ones purchasing from us, but also the potential customers. I do my best to answer every question I can from a potential customer,
even if they have just bought an animal I produce from someone else. Why? Well chances are the person will eventually want to find a mate for the animal, or the animal they got at a "sale" price will run into issues. Will the "shark" still be someone they can contact ? Probably not. Will I ? Yes... So my gaining this person as a customer is due to my ability to reflect a little of myself into my sales...

Enough ranting for now



Napa Valley Snakes

 

[Classic Dum's]

I say Broker like its a dirty word, and I am sorry but for the vast majority of them ,I feel like it IS.

There good and bad out there but you cant use it like its a dirty word. I mean come on Fred thats the same logic the KKK uses for its agenda. Theres good and bad in all. I think you may confusing brokers and importers or lumping them togther. I look at it differant, I see brokers and then I see importers. Theres alot of brokers out there that have just as high qaulity stuff as you or I. The area your in is one of the largest ports in the US. Yours and Fl are the top two in the US, so I think thats why your seeing so much of it. I used to as well back home because there was a ton of stuff coming through NYC. But there was a lot more brokers then importers. It was the importers selling the sickly dieing for super dirt cheap prices, thats why I started my whole imports thing. Collecting all those photos, I dont have them on the net anymore because the humaniacs stole them. But I still display them at shows to try and educate people. My freinds always tease me thats the reason I never sell much, because people walk away from my table sick to their stomach. But sometimes that harsh blunt in your face reality is the only thing thats going to make some people think. I gotta agree with Napa Valley, Ive watched this market go through up and down swings for years. Its similar to the stock market. I think were headed for a down swing now. everything has come to a head, there no where to go but down. Take the albino burms for example, I dont know about any where else but 3yrs ago you could buy them wholesale $15 each. Retail was $29.99 at the shows out east. They were seriously on every other table. People got scared, some people who were only in it for the money and everyone dumped their animals. Well 3yrs later look at the come back they have made. Theres not nearly as many on the market as there was. I think the cycle is starting to repeat again only this time I dont think it will be limited to a few species like it was last time, burms, jcps etc. I think there alot of stuff going to tank because now not only are we dealing with the cycles of this market but there less money because the economy sucks. So I dunno, anyway im off to bed later on.

 

[Linda Demadura]

OK, if there are good and bad brokers out there, how do you know who is who?? I think a list of the "good and bad" would be helpful. There are a lot of unknowns out there that feel they have to sell their animal cheap just to sell them, even if they have the "exact" same bloodlines as the "big names". It hard to compete with the "BIG NAMES". Now these "unknowns" sell their animals cheap and get labled "LOW BALLERS". That doesn't seem fair. Also if they sell to the "wrong or bad" broker it's just as bad. So, how would the "average unknown" sell their snakes?? Most people want to save money, but would only buy from an unknown if the "price is right!" It's a vicious circle from what I can see. I guess everyone just needs to sell their animals for a price they feel is fair.

 

[dwedeking]

The BOI is a great tool for finding out about people. This is a very tight knit community.

I think the effort it takes to sell your animals when you first start is a sort of baptism in fire to weed out the ones that won't take the effort. Building a name for yourself is supposed to be hard, most things that have value are.

You'd be amazed at how many established breeders are willing to help out someone new in then industry if they have the right attitude, show the correct values, and put forth a lot of effort.

A lot of small time breeders start out wholesaling to larger breeders/brokers. This allows them to build up the capital to be able to ride the market flux (I think most low ballers have to price that way to move stock quickly because they have no cash reserves and are operating on minimal if any profit margins) and build up a name.

 

[Fred Albury]

Final comments.

Jason, etc.

I've met SOME good brokers, people that sell healthy well represented animals, but I have met and seen a lot of brokers, not the "SHARKS" that Stephen from Napa valley has said that I confuse them with. Think of them as a halfway point between the SHARKS, which are easily discerned and a good broker.


There are people that come to the shows, plunk their CRAP down on the table, cheap and sell it all to an unknowing and uncaring public(The price is the mauin thing)

Then there are brokers, who are well known, sell a lot of snakes, and if you go to their facilities, you want to throw up. Of course, if you buy off the net, you would nebver know this, and neither would most of your friends because these guys dont have people that arent close friends just "dropping by" and for good reason.




Jason, your analogy about the kkk:There good and bad out there but you cant use it like its a dirty word. I mean come on Fred thats the same logic the KKK uses for its agenda.


the KKK uses a mans SKIN COLOR as a test of character, something he cant control and shouldnt even be factored in anyway...........

But brokers have a choice on how they want to be perceived, as good honest sources for quality snakes...or as lieing cheating sacks of crap that hustle near dead snakes


I think theres both good and bad....unfortunately I am VERY hesitant to try new ones less I make an error in judgement that costs me what few dollars I have. The ones I KNOW from takeing this chance with in the past(With LOTS of recommendations from others) such as Joe Debewski, are the ones I would use if I wanted an animal that is not fronm the breeder.

Personally...I like dealing DIRECTLY with the breeder, the majority of my snakes were procured in this fashion, and I prefer it as such. That is my choice and suits me just fine. You dont like it or dont agree with it, tough luck,lol

But I do agree there are good and bad brokers out there, like I said, if I cant get it from a breeder, than I refrence the few individuals that I know and truly trust as brokers and buy from them.

When I STARTED this thread, I was just sharing some insight into how I FELT about the direction of this industry, and where it MAY be going. Iam glad that it has provided so much interchange between both breeders and brokers and hope it continues, but I feel that from the beginning I have had to be on the defensive to support my *OPINIONS* and feelings, with a multitude of people condemning them. Thats not what I came here for, so my work on this thread is done.

Thanks

Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES

 

[napavalleysnakes]

Fred - My post is in no way an attack on you, but my interpretation of what I deciphered from your words... You make some legitimate points in your posts, I just disagree on the role brokers are playing in the softening of the reptile market.
Doesn't mean I want you to quit posting on the topic you started..

With that being stated, Jason makes another great point with his Albino Burm example.
Several years ago there were so many people breeding these things that they being sold at shows for less than the price of a dozen mice.. This year some of the bigger reptile wholesalers/retail stores couldn't find enough of them to satisfy their customers and the price increased..

So yes, there are alot of people blowing out animals at rock bottom prices right now (market dictates it), but soon enough we'll see the rock-bottom dealers disappear and the market return.

As for the broker issue, well if someone is a well-known broker dumping sub-standard animals onto an unsuspecting public, my opinion is they'll end up eliminating themselves in the long run.
People don't forget bad transactions..

Just me two-cents,

Stephen Emerick
Napa Valley Snakes

 

[Classic Dum's]

Fred I hope you havnt taken offense, weve gone back and forth before but I am just stating it the way I see it. I am in no way tring to attack your veiws or put you on defense, just trying to have a peacefull debate. I agree with some of what your saying but just think your a little broad in the way you term brokers.

the KKK uses a mans SKIN COLOR

My point exactly, they use something they shouldnt to judge a whole group of people. Its along the same lines, because of a few bad brokers youve seen or dealt with your lumping them all togther. I used to do the same thing with importers, I hated them all because of a few. Well live and learn, theres good and theres bad.

sell it all to an unknowing and uncaring public

Its alway going to be that way Fred if there money to be made theres always going to be sharks, bad brokers, bad breeders etc to try and claim some. The only thing any of us can really do is ride the cycles of the market out good or bad and do the best we can to educate everyone we can. Education is the key in ANYTHING! I hope you dont take any of that wrong Fred I am not attacking you, to me this thread is a debate and thats all I am doing. Take care Jason

 

[Pennebaker]

Just a little more to add to what Dan had to say to Linda about newcomers...
I agree with everything said and have another suggestion. One of the best ways to network and get your name out there is to do shows. At shows you get to meet a lot of the "big names", who can be valuble help and tools for you. If you go to a show, have quality animals and a nice setup (these are the keys), others notice it and try to help you out. Word of mouth is a great thing in this biz. Everyone likes to see a newcomer that cares and has quality--it is a welcomed relief to the fly-by-nighters that dump a bunch of you know what on the table. You can earn respect very quickly.

Also, brokers can be breeders as well--many of the "big names" actually buy from the "newcomers" and help goes both ways. I wholesale to a lot of breeders and do exchanges.

As for the "bad broker" vs the "good broker"--well there is the same spit when it comes to breeders--there are plenty of "bad breeders" out there as well. So dealing directly with a breeder does not mean that you are safe. In fact, most of my worst purchases over the years have been from breeders, not brokers.

Dana

 

[Serpwidgets]

Let's get a grip here...

I only breed cornsnakes, and I only do so small-time and as a hobby, so there's no real interest for me as a business. But my animals are on the high end of the price range. Being in cornsnakes, I looked at the prices of those who are making a living at breeding corns, and based my prices on those.

I have a couple of my adults up for sale and one person even emailed me asking, "what's the lowest possible price you'd accepts for [that individual]." No sale.

Part of it is that I believe I could make a little more instead of low-balling it, part of it is knowing that I'm not destroying their ability to support themselves by doing what they love, and part is knowing that I won't get any idiot buyers who are ignorant enough to think the lowest price is the best deal. I don't want that kind of customer and as a hobbyist it is a luxury that I can afford not to have them as customers. I will not sell disposable animals, and I supply all possible information about them to my buyers which I believe is the added value that is worth paying for.

That's my "business model."

But... a lot of this thread is downright scary!

People saying they are selling animals for the cost of a couple meals? I have to ask what brand of caviar and lobster you are feeding these poor snakes?

And people complaining about the market being controlled by consumers? GASP!

Umm.. so far I've been subjected to 3 things that are not controlled by consumers, and it scares the hell out of me: the post office, the phone company, and the airlines. I stopped using the airlines (I used to fly a lot) and am disconnecting my phone this week. I am also debating filling my mailbox with that foam junk you use to seal up windows because they refuse to acknowledge that my name is not "resident." I'm really sick of getting the worst possible service, and being literally forced to pay for it. It sucks. That is what happens when the consumers do not control the market. Stop complaining, it could be much worse.

Not everything SHOULD be a way to make a living. I would scoff at anyone who wanted to make a living selling buggy whips door-to-door, and I have somewhat the same attitude toward anyone who feels that the market has the responsibility to make sure they can put food on their table doing whatever it is they want to do. Not that everyone here has expressed that sentiment, but I've perceived it in quite a few of the posts here.

For me this is a hobby. I think it would be interesting to make a living at it, but I don't think it'll last. Right now there's a big boom in popularity of reptile pets. But it cannot grow forever, there's a point at which the market reaches saturation, at which everyone who's ever going to seriously keep herps is already keeping them... just like the current state where people who are already dog people already have dogs.

It's not like we can take the current state of things and extrapolate to say, "in 20 years, 150% of homes will have reptiles... or to put it in simpler terms, that's 3 out of every two people." It just doesn't happen like that. If you are serious about making a business, it behooves you to understand that as part of your business model.

I think you should consider yourself lucky that you are in fact able to make a living at it, for any length of time. Don't lose your grip on reality.... in the end, it is all about the consumer. The market does not exist to supply you with a way to make a living. It exists to supply consumers with what they want, period. If they want dirt-cheap disposable pets (no matter how much that disgusts you or me) that is what the market will supply them with. If that is the only possible way to make a business work and that goes against your ethics, then you best be looking for a job.

Personally, I believe it will stabilize and when everyone figures out their own niche, a very small number of people will be able to make a living breeding herps. The rest of us will have careers and keep breeding as a hobby. I also believe that if the entire thing were controlled by hobbyists who had no qualms about losing 100% of their sales over ethical issues and whose ONLY interests were the betterment of the animals themselves, there wouldn't be any issues like this.

But if there's room for people who can make a living doing what they love, more power to them.

Just don't ever complain that the market is controlled by consumers, that really yanks my chain.

 

[spyderdixie]

Another Problem

Another problem is the economy in general. A person that got laid of from his or her job can not justify spending the kind of money most herps cost, but if someone offers it to them at what looks like a bargain than they will spend the money without realizing the cost of maintenance. I believe the piss poor economy is what is driving prices down; for instance most bearded dragons are being sold for 1/2 or 1/4 of what they where going for last year even though the colors are getting better. I have found myself selling lower than what I have in maintenance but you have to draw the line somewhere. I do not know how many times a week I get a e-mail from some one wanting a 6 month old dragon and shipped for just $50, I will e-mail them as nice as I can be, stating that with the price of cages, tanks, lighting, electricity, crickets, mealworms, waxworms, kale, collard greens, mustard greens, etc. that I can not possibly sell them for that price, then days later they e-mail back stating that so and so will sell for that price or cheaper. Or I will get the e-mail from someone stating that they are down on there luck and would I be nice enough to just give them one if they pay the shipping and then I have to break there heart telling them if they can not afford the price of the dragon then how will the be able to maintain it. I also understand what others are saying about cutting cost and corners, I just recently went to the Atlanta reptile show and was shocked by some of what I seen. There where several breeders there with bearded dragons and mali uro.'s that were paper thin, and young kids with there parents where milling around these booth's buying them in droves because the prices were the lowest.

 

[dwedeking]

This is where planning comes into play. The economy will go through it's up and downs. Building a business plan that will weather an economic slow down is the difference between one year wonders and those that have been around for years.

Speaking of planning, make sure to plan your cricket purchases around holiday season shipping