The Disturbing Trend of Price Slashing in the reptile hobby/industry

[Seamus Haley]

I believe the piss poor economy is what is driving prices down; for instance most bearded dragons are being sold for 1/2 or 1/4 of what they where going for last year even though the colors are getting better.

Something that must be taken into consideration is the status of the animal in general... legally, the breeding population, the genetic diversity, the diversity of breeders, the age the animal matures at, clutch sizes and so on...

There is a natural tendency for morphs of readily avaliable species to drop at an exponential rate in the open market as the breeding population increases and the number of offspring produced each year grows... The juvenile population of any newer morph or even species is always smaller than the number of neonates produced any given year once breeding has been established or genetics proven... The rate at which this price drops is directly related to the ease with which reproduction occurs and the number of offspring produced... Lets look at three fairly commonly known and recent examples... around the same time period about four-five years ago, albino herps became something of a driving goal for many keepers and breeders... Albino Boa constrictors, Albino Ball Pythons and Albino Leopard geckos were all originally produced for sale within a fairly narrow span of time... The initial prices were through the roof on all three species... Ball pythons have retained much of that value because of the slow time to maturity (2-3 years) and the fairly small clutch sizes (Call it an average of 6-8 eggs)... Boas have a similar initial breeding age but produce larger clutches... Larger clutches=more animals displaying the trait or carrying the genetic material to produce the trait and a faster production... Leopard geckos are an extreme example... sexually mature (breedable anyway) at less than a year (ideally older but it can be done early) easy to breed, multiple clutches in a given year and... TEMP sexed for maximum production of the needed genders to produce heterozygous and then later homozygous offspring for the trait caused their price to plummet fairly quickly... (although the investment is also lower so it ended up being, if anything, more profitable for the originators of the breeding stock)... They breed so easily and quickly that pet shops routinely carry the morphs at this point, generally for prices under $50.

Animals that breed readily and plentifully, are popular enough with the masses to cause multiple breeders to base projects around the species and anything displaying morphs are a virtual given to drop steadily in price every year. Conversely animals that are less readily avaliable, tougher to breed and with smaller clutches tend to increase in price PER INDIVIDUAL SOLD... For instance, prehensile tailed skinks due to the recent reclassification on the CITIES list (possibly undeserved) have steadily grown in price since the inability to aquire WC individuals diminished...

The benefit to breeding those animals which produce large numbers of offspring with a fair amount of ease is... Volume. Any individual breeder can create a large breeding colony of certain species after a minimal initial investment and a bit of understanding for the species in question... This will unfortunately lead to both a tendency for quality to diminish as sellers compete for greater volumes and because a lowered return for the initial investment does tend to lead to an overall degrading effect on the care that certain, less ethical, herpers give the individual animals. The up-shoot of that is that it's a growing chasm... the high quality animals just keep getting better and the low quality animals just get worse... Unfortunate for the animals involved in the breeding projects of immoral or short term breeders of course but those breeders do eventually burn themselves out, eventually crappy stock catches up with them and they drive themselves out of buisness, leaving the individuals producing better stock sitting pretty... for a while... It's a cyclical tendency with any given species to which the "ease of breeding lowers market value and causes quality to diminish throughout the industry" theory can be applied to... It's just not a tendency that's been so visible until now with a few of these species that have been mentioned because the herping community has only very reccently opened itself up to the public and to analysis as a whole over different geographic or economic areas because of the ease of communication allowed by the internet.

So... What does a good breeder do?

Continues to breed and produce high quality animals and allows their potential customers to understand that, as a general rule of thumb, price is directly related to quality and you truely do get what you pay for...

Let those crap vendors burn themselves out, short term they think they're doing well but it will eventually catch up with them to "bite them in the ass" actions have consequences... negative actions have negative consequences.

Unfortunately it does become very tough on that enormous and ever increaseing group of individuals who obey every stricture and thought and rule of positive husbandry and positive buisness ethics but does so on a level not large enough to allow them much more than a break in the food bills for their herps. These individuals who produce quality specimins end up getting burnt within this aspect of the industry, they can't be as effective as a larger well known "Name" who breeds quality animals for a quality return on money invested... They often do not have the time or financial resources to "muddle through" the market value slump and regretebally end up facing care costs that force them to cease their production efforts or even liquidate their collections. There's also not much that can be done about it in a short term sense...

Long term however, by setting a positive example and supporting others who do so within the industry, the market value slump caused by those "crap breeders" can be pushed out of faster as people educate one another and get the word out about these clowns out for a quick buck for their dying animals from an unsuspecting neophyte keeper. There are certain tools that can be used to help accomplish this... Support other quality vendors and be supported in return... reccomend quality breeders for animals you do not personally produce to interested customers... and actively participate in such forums as the BOI, a quick and easy way to nail most of those scam artists to the wall by their ears without much trouble... and stop their actions in a widespread fashion no less.

::shrugs:: Just some thoughts.

 

[jbuncc]

seamus, i always love reading what you have to say. it's so well put together and it's always on a higher level than most. makes for great reading, no matter what the subject or my personal feelings.
thanks!
jb

 

[sschind]

Good points Seamus, but it isn't just "crap breeders" that are driving prices down. Several of my customers are breeding very good quality dragons and leos and selling them through newspaper adds at wholesale prices. I can't honestly tell my other customers that they are of lower quality. I can just stress that if they buy from me they always know where they can find me if any questions arise. Of course, I am the first one they call if there are problems anyway. One of them even had the balls to call me and ask if he could deliver the animals to me and have me collect the money for him because he didn't want people to know his home address. I said "sure, for a $25.00 handling fee on each one"

prices have gotten so low that I have stopped breeding my beardeds because it is cheaper for me to buy the babies than to raise them for 2 months before I sell them. If my adults weren't stub tail, no toes, rescues, I would sell them but no one would want them and I use them for shows.

I only breed Leos because they do what come naturally in their display vivarium.


Great advice about the cricket planning Dan. The last thing we want is for any of our bearded dragons to starve to death because we don't have crickets and all the pet shops are closed down for 2 weeks around the holidays.

Steve Schindler

 

[Seamus Haley]

Good points Seamus, but it isn't just "crap breeders" that are driving prices down. Several of my customers are breeding very good quality dragons and leos and selling them through newspaper adds at wholesale prices.

Sorry about that, I do have a tendency to generalize a bit when I'm low on sleep, I thought I adressed this a bit but I'll re-hash it here very quickly (more for my benifit than yours, I wouldn't want anyone to misunderstand my thoughts).

Once a breeding population for most species or a given morph has become established to the point where the animals are not only avaliable when you "know someone who has them" or for outrageous price tags but can be sold on-line or at shows (often still for outrageous price tags but $30K is better than $150K) the population can be represented almost as a pyramid. The breeding population is fairly small, sub-adults (age depends on species) that would be "next season's" breeders (or the equivalent for species that reproduce very early) represent a slightly larger portion of the total population and juveniles and neonates represent a very large section of the population. As more individuals are able to obtain and breed the species, the population and avaliability steadily increase, there are very few species that have a breeding pattern that produces fewer offspring than it takes breeders to make them (Solomon Island Skinks being the example of a species where the reverse is true that I used previously)... Essentially, Two adults that are bred will produce more than two offspring (or breeding groups where the males do extra duty will produce an even greater ratio of neonates produced per adult needed to produce them). Since this trend can continue for multiple years due to the nature of the animal, as those juveniles begin to enter the breeding population (generally about the same time they are starting to become readily avaliable for sale to anyone with the right amount of money) the number of captive individuals for the species will increase at an exponential rate. The original animals are still breeding when their original offspring begin to breed themselves and the numbers avaliable increase dramatically.

The amount of offspring produced per adult breeding animal (or the potential production) when coupled with the ease of breeding or simplicity of genetics (for morphs) will determine how quickly market value will drop. Thus the albino ball, BCI and leo example as given above, what the majority of people who tend to set prices realize is that the animals they could potentially buy today as neonates wouldn't be avaliable to breed for X amount of time... and so will all those other neonates they see avaliable. This tends to drive prices down with an ever increasing drive as time passes, it's really a sort of delayed effect of a basic supply and demand.

With animals like beardies or leopard geckos it's increased to the point where, now, the animals are extremely avaliable to just about anyone who wants them. This is, in some respects, a very good thing as they are what I like to call "Gateway herps"... They are to more expensive or delicate herps what marijuana is to methamphetamines (if I understand the principle of "gateway drugs" correctly) people get hooked and then get more serious about the hobby...

The obvious downside comes when someone who truely is an educated or proffessional breeder needs to compete with that kid who bought the first two avaliable and cheapest animals with their paperroute money (stereotypical exaple of a novice breeder who doesn't understand the idea of selective propogation yet). Because of the ease with which people breed the animals, they are suddenly avaliable from multiple sources and, as much as You and I both realize that you really do get what you pay for with herps, many people do not. The established breeder of quality animals is suddenly competing with someone who happened to buy a male and a female and managed to hatch out a few animals that they don't really want because they can't house or feed them all or didn't anticipate the level of investment needed to do it properly if it was deliberate. That novice breeder often ends up just trying to unload the animals and they do so by dropping the price to levels that someone who does it for a living can't compete with.

I did make a generalization when I used the term "crap breeders." I have found that there is a signifigant difference in quality between MOST of the "incidental breeders" and those who set out to do so deliberately and have done so before simply because of the initial investment required... Finding unrelated animals or animals that posess a trait that should be re-enforced is not generally high on the priority list of those individuals who stumble into it. There are individuals who realize the ease with which money can be made short term and will just produce crummy low quality animals to sell dirt cheap because there are unsuspecting people to buy just about anything and someone who's picking out a first herp generally can't tell high quality from animals that should never have been produced.

This is in no way to insinuate that EVERY first time breeder is producing low quality animals, it's merely a bit of a generalization used to describe a very broad situation. It is my hope that this can be understood and that individuals reading it can differentiate between the exceptional individuals just starting out and the unfortunate individuals who are perpetuating something that, if not illegal, is certainly not ethical to the majority of the industry.

Basically it boils down to-

Supply and Demand determine price.

Low prices tend to lead to an abundance of low quality which leads to lower prices which leads to lower quality which leads to lower prices which leads...

Anything easy to produce doesn't retain value very well from an economic standpoint.

Making money off any "new" species or morph (newly avaliable) requires getting in early and taking a bit of a risk with your investment. Easy to produce and desireable species that are obtained early enough in their avaliableility will pay for themselves and then some in a shorter period of time, animals that are slower to mature, harder to produce will pay for themselves over a longer period of time... The production numbers will determine cost, the more that can be potentially produced, the lower the market value of the animal will be in a shorter period of time, the animals with low production capabilities retain value longer (but remember that you produce fewer as well).

To some degree, breeding anything and looking for a profit is a huge crap shoot anyway because, as much as you try to stay involved and interested and up to date... there's always someone doing something you don't know about and herpers can be a very picky bunch with popularity trends.

Hope that cleared it up a bit, there are multiple catagories that most people can be shoved into when determining "what sort of breeder" they are but for the purpouses of a generalized discussion, I've got square holes, round holes, trianguara holes... I'll take a hammer and make that octogon fit somewhere, just to make it a bit easier to understand the generalizations and trends as broad concepts.

 

[trdhrdr007]

Opinion from a Hobbyist

I breed a very limited number of reptiles every year, so far less than 30 offspring per year. Half of the pleasure I get out of the hobby is the breeding process; for example right now I am trying to produce a snow Brooks starting with an axanthic & an albino. Anyway, I occasionally have snakes that no longer fit in with my projects, or surplus babies that I don't need. Rather than euthanize them I like to find homes for them. I guess I could stop breeding, but if I did I would cut my collection from 36 animals (of which I might breed 2 pairs/year) down to 1 or 2 that I liked best. I would only replace these when they die, so I would only be buying a new reptile every 10 years or so. Anyway, it would seem to me that repeat customers make up a large portion of breeders/brokers business.
It would seem to me that all the pros could come up with a reasonable solution, but I haven't seen one listed yet. I have an idea that may or may not work. Form a co-op or network with a breeder/broker in each state, someone reputable who was a verified shipper. Set up a central location in each state where small scale hobbyists like myself could bring our animals, and either take them on a consignment basis or buy them outright. Price would be based on a percentage of retail that would allow the network to make a profit. Surplus from one state could then be shipped to where it is needed across the U.S. I know that something like this would require a lot of work to set up, but it would probably help with the pricing situation & in the long run would be good for business. All of the preceeding is only my OPINION.

Tim Retzlaff

 

[sschind]

Seamus,

Again, great points. I understand everything you said, and I agree 100%.

Sadly, I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never make money breeding animals for a several reasons.

1. I refuse to breed any animals that I do not personally enjoy, and would not want to own as a simple pet. I will not choose to breed an animal just because it is a hot item and will make me a bunch of money until the supply catches up with the demand.

I am not saying that everyone who dumps their normals or common animals to pick up on the newest hot trend does not care for their animals. With many breeders, developing new morphs is an enjoyable thing, (see #2) and they truely have an interest in their newly created variations. When their collections (stock) get to large to manage efficiently (which causes the animals to suffer) something must go, and with the exception of a few sentimental favorites this is usually the "low end" animals. There is nothing wrong with that. Sadly, there are those out there that see every new morph, or every newly popular animal, simply as a way to make a quick buck, only to be discarded when they can't make enough of a profit on them.

2. I do not like any (very few) of the morphs that are the animals selling for enough money to allow me to overcome my expenses. I can't think of a single reptile where I like the "morphs" better than the normals.

Thats just me. I enjoy things as nature intended and there is nothing at all wrong with people who feel otherwise. Sandfires don't do anything for me, albinos usually make me cringe (although I think I could learn to enjoy an albino ball python). I am trying to amass a large collection of corn morphs because they make a very interesting and informative display when I do shows and presentations. And I do own a 10' albino burm for the same purpose, but for the most part I would sooner have nothing to do with them. I sometimes even hesitate to bring them into my store because I don't like them even though others do.

3. I enjoy watching and observing my animals, even the ones I breed. I like naturalistic setups and live planted vivarrariums. I do not like putting them in boxes in a rack system where the only time I get to see them is when I open the box. This puts a severe cramp space which keeps me from building up large colonies of the "normals" that I like so I can't breed them in large volume to sell wholesale, which we really dont need anyway.

Again, its just me. People that provide everything that their animals need to stay healthy are doing absolutely noything wrong by keeping their animals in racks. I do not have a problem with it whatsoever. In fact I do have some of my animals in racks until I can figure out a way to best display them all.

4. many of the animals I have a desire to breed are very common and very frequently imported (water dragons, collared lizards, uros, chuckwallas, blue tongues etc.) While I don't have heroic visions of stopping the importation or wholesale collection or native species single handedly, I would like to be able to offer true CBB animals to my customers and when other stores are offering the same animals as WC.

5. The final reason I will never make money as a breeder of reptiles, I LIKE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING. Dart frogs, blue tounges, ground geckos, arboreal geckos, boas, mt. kings, milks, uros, tree frogs, you name it. I can not make up my mind which way I would like to focus my energies and this, tying in with #3, make it difficult to keep my mind focused on one thing.

My dream would be to be able to make a decent living DISPLAYING animals. Kind of like a private reptile zoo. This would allow me to obtain the animals and create the environments I that I like, make the presentations that I think are educational, and be really enjoy the reptiles and amphibians that have become a large part of my life.

I will say it once more. These are just my views. This is the way I feel about reptiles. There are those who do not share my exact feelings and as long as their animals are cared for properly and they go about their business in a responsible manner, I have absolutely no problems with what kinds of animals they enjoy, or choose to breed, or how they wish to display or keep them.

Steve Schindler

 

[Seamus Haley]

Steve,

Your thoughts on morphs and hybrids and hot ticket items seem to coincide exactly with mine. As you said, it's why you'll never make any money- I'm in the same catagory. Outside of people who have met me and a few who know me online, virtually nobody would purchase animals from me simply because I am 100% about ME when it comes to my collection. Everything I own (fairly small numbers) that I purchased was purchased solely because I like the species (Great Lakes garter snakes are beautiful animals, I don't care if they're cheaper than green anoles and I LIKE Hellbenders even if they look like something you find in the toilet at a gas station).

More often than not the individuals who happen to have long term success as breeders or dealers (and any offshoots or intermediaries involved) are those who do have a great liking for the animals they're working with. The individuals who enter into it short term and solely to make a name for themselves tend to burn out very, very quickly (e.g.- Rainwater). All the true "Made it Big doing what I enjoy" stories are people who have an education, a dedication and an interest... and more often then not, hit an extreme stroke of luck that made it possible (e.g.- Bob Clark and his aquisition of the Albino Burmese python; stroke of luck, some inherent risk and an enormous amount of work).

The rest of us... Well, we either break even from time to time and enjoy ourselves doing it or we get alternative forms of employment and end up eating ramen noodles for two weeks straight in order to buy heat tape.

I personally wouldn't give it up for anything else in the world.

It does help that I like Ramen noodles though.

 

[Tony]

I personally think that it has nothing to do with economy. This has been going on for years. Everything goes in spurts. Right now it is beardeds. The price will go to rock bottom no one will make any money breeding them. So all the private breeders get rid of them and move on to something more profitable. The next year when everyone is waiting for the overload of beardeds there won't be that many. Then the prices shoot way back up once people realize that there are not as many available. Albino Burmese are a great example. Five years ago they were wholesaleing for $50, now you are lucky to pick them up for $100. Everything will go back and forth. There are to many private breeders and enthusiasts that love to overwhelm the market with the lowest prices. These are the people that ruin the market. If you keep your breeding stock and keep your prices consistent you will end selling everything. If you want to sell at blowout prices sell to other stores or wholesalers. They will buy your entire clutch and you don't have to deal with one at a time sales. Most businesses won't ruin the market with blowout prices. But who knows for sure, just my opinion. Thanks for reading.

Tony Alles
Reptileguru.com

 

[sschind]

Seamus,

I just bought 2 cases of ramen noodles myself

Tony

good point about keeping the breeding stock. I have seen it happen and I am sure it will happen again. Part of the problem though is that when the price goes back up again many of the buying public remember the low prices and it takes a while for them to get it into their heads that "hey, if you want something now it will cost you more than it did a year or two ago. If you wait long enough it will probably come back down but for now this is the way it is." Still, I have my stump tail beardeds that give me about 20 babies a year and my leos still produce so I don't have to rely 100% on outside stock


I've even seen it on a short term scale. A wholesaler will offer a great price on something (reptile, fish etc.) one or two stores buy a crapload of them and blow them out at way below normal retail prices. then when the wholesale price goes back up to what it normaly is they have problems selling that item at regular prices because people "remember when they were much cheaper" Yellow tangs in the saltwater hobby are an example. a few years ago they were rather inexpensive and you get get them retail sometimes for under $10.00. Now they wholesale at around that and it has taken a year or so for people to realize that this is the price they will be for a while. I know its a little different because we are talking about a WC species in which the supply has not changed much but other factors (collecting, shipping etc.) have driven the cost up rather than a change in the supply but the end result is the same. the difference is that collecting and shipping and other expenses are not likely to go down so the prices on animlas like that are not likely to be as cyclical.

Steve Schindler

 

[bpc]

Ethical "lowballer"

OK guys, I 'm the one you love to hate. I broker animals. I sell things $1 cheaper than the lowest price in the building. I sell wild caught animals. BUT, I ALWAYS tell the truth about the animals I'm selling. And yes Rich, I have even said, "Heck, I don't know I just got it yesterday." In fact, I probably say that at every show I do.

Why you ask? Well I got started because I got sick and tried of wholesalers offering me $4.50 for my feeding baby corn snakes. All I wanted was $7.50 and they could spend that much. Then when I'd pull up their website, they would be selling baby corns for $19.95. So, I got pissed, bought a table and started selling my corns to the public for $10. Worked great! Then I started doing the same thing with all my other animals. Worked great!
Then I started taking animals from friends on consignment. Worked great!

Next I bought two tables, and I filled one w/ animals I bought from the wholesalers. I'd pay $10 for a snake, sell it $15. Worked great! Those animals paid for the tables and even more of my breeding project money went into my pockets. If someone askes how I can sell that snake for $15, I just say, "I just bought it, and it's wholesale to the public, as is where is." Works great!

I did the Atlanta Show. I took 60 WILD CAUGHT ADULT BALL PYTHONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I sold out by 11:15 a.m. Sunday morning. Even though I told every person who looked at them all the problems they would probably encounter with them. All they cared about was the $15 price tag. I had 8 awesome captive born, guaranteed feeding, baby balls at the other end of the table priced from $35 to $125, and I came home with 7 of them (and take a guess which one sold!). Most of the balls I sold went to pet stores, and to them price IS the most important factor. Some went to the public and they were warned (it's just my policy).

I think the whole idea of selling my animals only to wholesalers to "maintain market integrity" is ridiculous. Why should they be the ones to make most of the money from my hard work? I have even been banned from shows here in FL because my prices were "too low," and "the other vendors are complaining." The real reason was because the show promoter, who also had a table, didn't make as much money as he did when I wasn't there.

My policy is to have a minimum price for the animal and not to go below it, no matter who is on the other side of the table. I'm not stupid, I don't sell animals at a loss, but sometimes I would rather sell them for a dollar or two over cost because, "I really don't want to take them home."

I think it's great that there are people out there willing to spend $450 on a red amazon tree boa. And if you can get it more power to ya. Personally, I'd rather buy three of them for $60, feed them, and then sell all three of them for $100-150 each. I think it's easier to find 10 people with $10 in their pocket, than it is to to find 1 with a $100.

The economy is a problem, and let's face it we aren't selling oxygen. So, those of you who rely on your "big name" to sell animals may be in for a rough time. But, if worse comes to worse you can always sell the Lexus and buy a Ford like us little guys drive.

I'd love to write more, but I have to go bathe the children. Type to ya later, Brian Conley

 

[sschind]

Most of the balls I sold went to pet stores, and to them price IS the most important factor.[/QUOTE

not to every pet store. I have not and never will purchase adult recent WC ball pythons at any price. (I don't even mess wit imported babies) Some of the adults I purchase from customers are undoubtably WC but they are established and feeding. I may have been willing to buy all of your CBB babies, but 125.00 is a little steep for normal balls.

Some went to the public and they were warned (it's just my policy).

So your policy is "give me $15.00 for this snake, it might never eat for you but thats your problem

Personally, I'd rather buy three of them for $60, feed them, and then sell all three of them for $100-150 each.

Thats fine, but you have already said that you might not even take the time to feed them, or even try to feed them. You have even admitted to selling animals that the only thing you know about them is that they are breathing.

I'm not saying that you don't have the right to run your business this way but to me it is very irresponsible.

Just my opinion

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

 

[dwedeking]

Brian,

Question for you. How much repeat business does this get you? There is definitely more than one way to do business and be successful. I bank heavily on repeat business (customers are expensive to get when you consider the time and money spent on marketing, customer service etc).

I see certain chameleon breeders at shows out here on the west coast that are higher in price but due to reputation they always do well at the shows. And I see many posts online about their animals and recommendations to purchase from them. This to me reads as "free" advertisements (not really free as it takes time to build that reputation).

There are two philosophies (sp?) on weathering hard economic times. The first (yours) is keep your prices extremely low and push volume. The second is get decent prices when the times are good so you don't have to fire sale your animals when things slow down and just ride out the low times. Both work, but in light of pushing repeat sales I believe (just personal opinion) that the second is the preferred method.

 

[Tony]

It is good to see that you tell your customers the truth, but do you tell them that it will cost them about $450 worth of wild caught red amazons before they get one to really feed and not regurgitate. Plus how much it will cost taking it to the vet. The trouble you get from wild caughts is not worth it compared to a captive. A captive born red amazon for $450 is worth it because you know it will live. The wild caught animals that you are selling will die 90% of the time. I don't even want to know how many wild caught ball pythons are brought in to the US each year. But I know for sure that most of those end up dead. It is not your fault for selling wild caught animals. We all do. You are not bad because you are trying to make money, but your reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. I don't know what state you are in, but out here in California we are more than happy to pay $8 for a feeding corn. Most the time I pay $10, as long as it is honestly feeding. And as far as "market integrity", that also effects the lowballers. You are not the only person that can sell them at low prices. Many other people will eventually lowball you until no body wants to sell that animal any more because it is worthless. Then what happens. You guys move on to the next animal and ruin prices on them. We all buy the wild caught animals at the same price. It just feels better when you actually treat them right before sending them out. Medicate them, get rid of the ticks, make sure they are actually feeding. I really doubt if you told your customers the actual truth they would by the wild caught animal. There are many bussinesses that make sure there wild caught animals are healthy before they are sold. A very good example would be pro exotics. The water monitors they sell are one of the best, and guess what they are wild caught. But cared for. You may sell your reptiles at the shows in Florida, but it seems you may be better suited to sell them at swap meets. Selling animals that are going to die and super low prices only makes you a temporary dollar. Return bussiness and quality is what should be the most important.

Sorry for the long post.
Tony Alles

 

[bpc]

Steve, yes, after I have warned the customer about all those problems, and $15 still sounds better than $35, I have no problem taking their money. The $125 animal was a farm raised pastel, and I sold it last weekend for $150. As far as the amazons, I don't know what your experience is with them, but of the 150 or so I have bought over the past 3-4 years, THREE (including one "captive born" one I bought at the Atlanta Expo) have not fed. The two wild caughts that did not feed eventually died, but I've had worse luck than that with corns.

Dwedeking, I have many repeat customers, some for the wholesale stuff, some for the c.b. stuff. I think what helps me out there is the fact that I am 100% honest about this business and what I do. I offer no guarantees on wholesale and I tell people that upfront. I sometimes give a feeding guarantee on captive born, and have dealt with a few customers over that. Yes, every once and awhile I do have a very pissed off customer. But, usually they don't have a leg to stand on because I tell them up front no guarantee, that's why it's 40% less than the other guy.

Tony, I don't know where you're buying your amazons from, but the ones I get have no where near the problems you're talking about. As stated above, over 150 purchased in the past 3-4 years. 2 dead, 1 still alive but refusing to eat, and that one I paid top dollar for because it was captive born. That being said, I just had a clucth of babies born from a female I bought gravid, 13 big beautiful babies. Not a one of them wants anything to do w/ mice yet. I will still have them for sale this weekend, and I will just let people know they haven't fed yet ( but then again they are only 2 wks old.). I even have one stunning solid red one, that I'll let you have for $250.

I sell the corns in FL.

I really do tell the truth about what the animals are and what I know about them. I probably talk as many people out of buying animals as I do talking people into it. If you even see me at a show look at the cages. Stuff that is c.b. is marked, and stuff that is w.c. and often confused with c.b. is marked w.c. (like balls). I never said I mistreated animals, but the truth is I pick up many animals the Friday before the show, do I run home and shotgun them full of wormer? NO, in many cases they don't even need it. I think a lot of people that bash w.c. animals really know very little about them. If I do end up bringing and animal home and it looks like it could benefit from a little panacur and flagyl, it gets it. W.C. does not always mean bad folks. EVERY SINGLE animal in your collection can have it's lineage traced back to the wild, so get off the captive born only high horse.

 

[Double "D" Reptiles]

Okay, I've enjoyed this thread so far and have remained quiet through 8 pages. So, let's see if I can muddy the waters a bit and cause some confusion and introspective thinking. (Please, don't throw solid objects my direction or attempt to shoot your monitor thinking it'm in there.)

Hypothetical situation (and one I could find myself in easily based upon my present knowledge of the area in which I live but unlikely as I hesitate quickly to handle this animal):

I go out this coming spring and collect a small adult group of albino timber rattlesnakes, say 2.6 (yes, extremely possible from multiple reports and granted access to the right den areas where this probably wouldn't even dent the population.) With these animals I attempt captive breeding, but all attempts fail even though I am assured that the conditions are as they should be. Now, come September, all 6 females drop 100% albino litters. Now, since I have an over-abundance of offspring that I don't need and don't care to keep, and my licenses and permits allow me to sell these animals, I begin to set prices based upon market research.

There is first a question of how to label these offspring. Are they WC, CB or farm bred. Not captive bred since the breeding obviously didn't take place in my captivity. But, they're not wild caught as that particular label would only apply to the original adult stock (which may be sold as WC or released back into the wild depending upon various legal issues or circumstances.) Farm Bred would imply that the females were known to be gravid when collected and done so simply for that purpose. These offsping were conceived in the wild, but were CB (captive born.) And since I have them, I can actually sell them for whatever price I deem appropriate, regardless of the desires of others worldwide who may be offering similar animals as long as I represent them to prospective buyers honestly. Would I be a bad guy for doing this or just darned lucky? It's all based on opinions. Then ask if it differs if I keep the adults, or even some of them, to breed the next year as well as a few of the offspring in order to establish a captive colony for breeding/selling purposes? Would it matter if I was able to recapture albino females the following year with the same results while also producing offspring from the adults in my collection provided I made certain to label them accurately and represent the offspring honestly? Perhaps I'd be wrong to offer them at the same price, but when market saturation is taken into consideration, if the prices are lower than the previous year by an honestly represented amount, wouldn't that be my perogative?

<end hypothetical scenario>

We happened upon a similar situation a few years ago and, as fate would have it, the babies were ball pythons. Now, we did have a group of adults at that time but they did not breed for us that year as we had cycled them wrong. They went through the motions but to no avail. We were able to secure some farmed imports, extremely clean and healthy which we held for at least 3 feedings and one shed before even announcing to the public we had them available. Later that year, after having them for at least 3 months, we attended a show and offered these for sale at a price which was higher than freshly arrived import babies but less than true captive bred. We sold all but 1 of the 5 we took and other breeders were astonished that these could look so good. We even had their feeding schedules set to where we fed them all pre-killed around lunchtime on Saturday for everyone to witness who was interested. They were larger and cleaner than most of the captive born balls at the show and we were able to sell them for less. We did not label them as CB, just ball pythons. If asked, we were able to tell prospective buyers that these were farmed and brought into the country 3 months ago and had been in our care X amount of time. No problems and we were happy right along with the buyers. Haven't messed with a large number of babies like that for a couple of years due to time constraints, but I'd love to do so again if the situation was right. So, while they aren't on my list of animals I'm looking to breed this year, I'd love to be able to offer excellent quality animals that are well cared for, correctly represented and heathy for a fair amount this next year. Would that make me a bad guy driving down the market? Perhaps to some...but to others who get a top notch animal that will live for years under proper conditions on their end, we'll probably get repeat business. Heck, part of the reason I'm considering it is that people in our area have been asking now for 2 years and are still asking since our prices and the quality of the animals offered still beats the pet shops within driving distance.

David Jobes
(if it's a bit erratic and hard to read, please excuse this as it's late and I really should be in bed)

 

[dwedeking]

David,

First, I don't feel there is anything unethical that you did or that Brian does. As long as you are honest to the prospective buyer concerning your experience with the animal and it's condition/status.

I would label the animals as Captive Born to be upfront about how they came into existence. The reason that CBB (captive bred & born) should carry a higher price is because the breeder should have provided a much more structured enivironment to ensure a healthy breeding female. Next on the list would be Captive Born animals because the breeder can provide a healthy environmnet for the babies even if the care of the female during pregnancy was less than perfect (being transported etc). WC means you have little knowledge of the animals upkeep and should be worth less. Selling any of these animals is fine as long as your upfront about their status.

I disagree with Brian's business plan but only on the basis of economic factors not ethics. It's his right to price the animals at any price (even a loss if he so desires). I just have a different philosophy to achieve the goals. I own another business that I came in as being lower in price and concentrating on volume. I've found that a large percentage (not all) of people that bought these services at "wholesale" rates were more problem oriented than the ones I was able to sell at "retail" rates. Maybe those spending more money put more thought into exactly what they wanted and therefore were able to get what suited them as opposed to a more impulse purchase that did not fill their needs down the road. A person with "buyers regret" will start looking for problems with a produce/service/animal.

All of this is just my opinion

 

[evansnakes]

I have stayed away from this post because I have no desire to insult anyone or upset anyone, but this post is just ignorant on so many levels. I have been in this business for over 15 years. It has not changed one bit in the area that you are discussing. There is a very simple equation. If you are so "alarmed" by this you should open your eyes and look around because this is SOP.

Simple: the real people in this industry who will be in a sustained business and will stay for the long haul keep their prices where they want them. The people who are just trying to get rid of something sell quick at low prices. No breeder with any substantial investment in a project sells the animals at cut rate prices and in the end people usually realize that the guy with the higher price is in most cases the better guy with the better animal and he will be there in a couple years if you need him again.

If you feel so threatened and "empty" due to this, then do what we have all done and buy the under priced animals from said person and sell them at the price you want, there by eliminating that person as a variable on your market value. Evan Stahl

 

[evansnakes]

I forgot to mention, there are actually a ton of animals that have gone very far up in price the past two season! Many are at 10 year highs! Pastel balls went up from last year. All baby burmese python morphs are selling much higher than they have in years. Ring pythons, brazilian rainbow boas, cal kings and so many more. Albino honduran milks and albino nelsons milks were higher this year than last. There are so many examples it is almost funny. This is probably the year that I have seen the least "price slashing."

 

[HerpMasters Inc.]

I believe that this industry, like so many others, has fallen victim to the internet. Yes the internet can generate sales and it is convenient but look at the pressure to sell. How many years ago, did you have to know a breeder or wait for the next reptile show or make a special trip to a breeder to be able to purchase a top notch reptile. Now in the span of 5 minutes or less, a deal can be made and consummated. This sounds great on the surface but when you look at it, it causes a new pressure for breeders. I have bought and sold many snakes over the internet. Sometimes getting burned but most of the time trying to deal with reputable people. I have seen prices fall this year like no other year in the past. It is the animals that I am concerned about. It is a lot easier to forget about a $50 burmese python than a $150 burmese python. Just some thoughts.

 

[dwedeking]

The internet is a two edged sword. It does allow a buyer to price shop. But more important from my prespective, you can greatly increase the number of people that your available to sell to (which is the hardest part of a niche market).

I find shows much more pressure oriented. You only have 1 or 2 days to sell, while on the internet if someone doesn't like my pricing I can wait until the next inquiry comes in without stressing about deadlines. I've seen a lot of "fire sales" during the last few hours of a show, where I know breeders barely covered costs (if that) just so they wouldn't have to take the animals home.

I agree with Evan, that those that will be around year after year will be the ones that charge what they will and ride out the ups and down of the market.