To Jump or Not To Jump

[Seamus Haley]

This is semi-business related, more BOI/Fauna conduct related but i wasn't sure where else to stick it, so here it is.

Jumping on fishy or questionable ads, when is it acceptable, when isn't it?

I think most of us have probably seen at least a few dzen threads where someone's reputation has been questioned by someone who was not considering a purchase but believed that there was a potential rip-off happening and decided to run a slightly biased inquirey rather than an outright bad guy post to gather more evidence.

Heck, there's two running currently on the BOI right now, one where it turned out that the questionable ad was an indication of an individual with a past history and a track record that pretty firmly places them in the rip-off category, one where it's looking like it was just a misworded/misread ad.

The responses to the people who brought them up were different, to a degree this is understandable as one of them outed another bad guy, the other cast a quickly dispelled dispersion on an individual (Although it won't have any substantial affect on the business)... One person thanked and touted for their vigilance, the other called out for harassment of innocents.

Semi-related are the discussions I've had with Al (RealVenom) about posts pointing out questionable use of terms related to non-genetic morphs... Yes it's wrong to fruadulently advertise something but if it's not stated that the pattern is genetic and they're just applying a fancy name and 1500% markup to normal ball pythons that happen to look funny... is it wrong to do so?

Basically... Should we be on the lookout for questionable ads and take chances that evidence will present itself once the subject is broached... or should we work under an assumption that someone is legitimate until they have proven themselves to be otherwise?

Obviously there is a huge expanse of gray area on this issue and every ad will be different... Some I have questioned myself in the past, others I have felt it that there wasn't valid evidence to attempt to call someone on it... But cramming the whole issue into black and white clear cut terms...

Jump on questionable ads and look for more imput?

-Or-

Leave ads alone unless from a known bad guy?

 

[dwedeking]

If someone wants to post an ad for a "Screamer, Sunblazin', Super Orange Bearded Dragon" and you look at the photo and it's just a normal dragon who cares. That's what the photo's are for so you can see what you actually get.

If you have an issue with an ad, email the seller and see if there is a reasonable explanation before you take it public and possibly taint a perfectly legitimate business.

If you have questions pertaining to an action that you may feel is borderline questionable then bring it to this forum (general discussion) and use generic terms to get feedback.

 

[sschind]

I see it as a disregard for BOI rules. It clearly states that BOI threads be of 3 types Good Guy, Bad Guy, or Inquiry, and should be stated as such in the thread topic. Weblsave has been very lenient in this and thats fine I have no problem with it. On the other hand, where will it stop. Threads about fishy ads are nothing more than that, fishing. these people may think they are doing us a favor and they may be, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are not using the BOI for what it was intended (IMO) I see ads every day that look fishy to me. I don't run them by the BOI. I see ads with very low prices on animals (if its too good to be true it probably is) should I post those as well, they are fishy to me.

It would be very easy to turn a "fishy" thread into an inquiry but people just don't seem to want to take the time to do it. Maybe it would indicate that they were actually more involved than they want to be. Example. you see an ad where someone is selling a het for piebald ball python. three weeks ago the same person was selling normal ball pythons like crazy.

Do you post an ad that states "so and so has a fishy ad on KS. they were selling normal balls three weeks ago now all of a sudden they are selling het for piebalds" To me it sounds like you are accusing them of misrepresenting the animals.

However, if you were to change the post a bit and say "so and so is advertising het for piebald ball pythons on KS. Has anyone dealt with him in the past, or know anything about him" That is what the BOI was intended for. Chance are someone else has seen the ad and knows exactly what you are talking about.

Of course a few things should be assumed. It should be assumed that you actually contacted the party in question. If you have a question about his product you should ask him first. second, assuming the guy is not an outed scammer. If Jesse Underhill or one of his alter egos were advertising a het for piebald it might be more acceptable to post a warning about it on the BOI. Of course I still think you should contact the person first.

Another thing, when I see an post about a fishy ad without any details, and without any indication that the originator had contacted the individual in question it raises some questions to me about his own integrity. To me it sounds like he may have an axe to grind. I am not saying this is the case with the two most recent threads, I haven't checked them again to see, just that I have seen them in the past)

One last thing. It brings up the question When do we bring attention to something like this? If you contact so and so and they can't tell you the breeder they got their hets from, and they do not have any documentation does that warant a "fishy ad" thread, or do you just leave it be and file it under your own personal "questionable people" file. I can't answer that but all I can say is that if you are going to make accusations (and I'm sorry but to me that is what a fishy ad thread is) you had better make sure your facts are accurate.

Steve Schindler

 

[The BoidSmith]

... Yes it's wrong to fruadulently advertise something but if it's not stated that the pattern is genetic and they're just applying a fancy name and 1500% markup to normal ball pythons that happen to look funny... is it wrong to do so?

Seamus,

As you say it's not black and white but there are a lot of gray areas. There is usually a relationship between price and quality. High quality items cost more to produce or are in low supply. It is thus human to assume than when something priced at $1,000 it is of better quality. Please bare with me that this is not always true (again nothing is black and white). The opposite tends to be true though, an item that's usually valued at $1,000 is suddenly offered at $100...chances are there is something wrong with it.

Back to the example of the snakes. If someone posts for sale a normal ball python import for $1,000 when he bought it for $30 he is creating expectations in some buyers. Why? Because they dream about the possibility of being able to breed such an animal and sell the offspring at a similar price. Here is where I find it wrong. The unsuspecting buyer (new to the trade) thinks that if he bought this incredible new morph for $1,000 from Mr. Fancy Webpage, he will in turn be able to sell it for the same amount. He will later find from friends or other breeders that is not the case, and that he has been lured into a dream.

Steve,

Sometime ago (before knowing of the BOI existence) I was badly scammed by a well known individual (luckily he is not around anymore). If I can avoid more people go through what I had and the amount of money lost, I will do so.

If you contact so and so and they can't tell you the breeder they got their hets from, and they do not have any documentation does that warant a "fishy ad" thread, or do you just leave it be and file it under your own personal "questionable people" file.

If someone has information that proves that this individual is trying to scam someone, I think it is important for him to post it. If someone just files it for his own personal benefit, he would be in fact covering that indiviual's wrongdoings. How would someone feel if after a while another individual posts they have been scammed by so and so while we had the info that could have avoided that but was never released?

Best regards.

 

[Wilomn]

How would someone feel if after a while another individual posts they have been scammed by so and so while we had the info that could have avoided that but was never released?

I think the above is the key question for many here. Do those who know better say something that may save those who don't some time and money and maybe ever heartache?

I have seen some really questionable adds of late, take for instance the het for piebald boa add that was so recently up on ks, but didn't say anything about it even though I was 99% sure it was pure BS. Is it my place to watch out for my fellow herpers? Should they have to take their chances and lumps as I did? Will they appreciate it if I say - hey watch out for these guys, something isn't right? These questions run through my mind when I see the adds like the one above from upstate theivery, er, exotics.

Is it better to have said something or not, purely a personal question, especially since on this board the entire cross section of the herping community is represented. There are the self proclaimed geniouses( hi Seamus) and the professionals, and the hobbiests. Then there are the newbies. What do you do with them? Just who's job is it, or is it even anybodies, to teach them?

I guess if your motives are altruistic, looking out for the other guy, then questioning anyone is OK. Afterall, if the questioned party is in fact a good guy, they'll come on and say so to everyones satisfaction with, I think, no harm done. And if they are in fact scammers or outright bad guys then the warning/question was timely and most likely appreciated.

On the other hand, how many of us are truly altruistic?

Unless the questioner is just some mean spirited buttwad with some sort of axe to grind I think I would rather see the questions than not.

Wes Pollock

 

[E2MacPets]

I tend to jump way too quickly on leopard gecko ads, mainly because I have always felt a social stigma being a leopard gecko owner versus certain public herp chatrooms and I feel the need to stand up for an animal and its hobbyists that most herpers seem to scoff at.

Although I didn't bother to jump on a certain individual selling $30 animals for $550lowest bid, simply because I HOPE people can see through that.

I jumped on another ad, and this is one of the cases Seamus is discussing, because I couldn't find information on the seller in either direction and did feel that the sale was not an ethical one- shipping (some or all) gravid females and most likely new hatchlings, while stating that the females were ready to breed and make the buyer's money back.

Should I have brought it up outside of the BOI? Maybe.
Should I have worded it differently? yes, I allowed my feelings about the ethics of the issue jade how i viewed the ad.
Should I have been jumped on for asking?

 

[dwedeking]

Back to the example of the snakes. If someone posts for sale a normal ball python import for $1,000 when he bought it for $30 he is creating expectations in some buyers. Why? Because they dream about the possibility of being able to breed such an animal and sell the offspring at a similar price. Here is where I find it wrong. The unsuspecting buyer (new to the trade) thinks that if he bought this incredible new morph for $1,000 from Mr. Fancy Webpage, he will in turn be able to sell it for the same amount. He will later find from friends or other breeders that is not the case, and that he has been lured into a dream.

If you spend $1,000 on an investment without doing some basic research your asking to be done wrong. There needs to be some basic common sense utilized by a buyer. I can't believe how many people see this trade as a no-knowledge low entry industry and don't do their homework.

 

[The BoidSmith]

If you spend $1,000 on an investment without doing some basic research your asking to be done wrong. There needs to be some basic common sense utilized by a buyer. I can't believe how many people see this trade as a no-knowledge low entry industry and don't do their homework.

Daniel,

I understand your point and yes, if you are going to get into a certain market you better do a little research before doing so. That's on the side of the buyer. On the side of the seller though IMO it is unethical to overprice an animal with the expectancy that some unaware, uninformed or misinformed individual will be tricked into believing he is buying something special. Maybe I'm wrong but it's just an opinion.

Regards.

 

[sschind]

You know what, I just spent 45 minutes responding to several posts, I finally figured out how to work the quote thingy, and I really wanted to respond directly to some of the comments, BUT (and you will probably all be happy about this) I did the preview reply thing, found something I wanted to change and when I went back everything was gone. This is just one reason why I think this would be a better world if computers had never been invented. I know my blood pressure just shot up about 50 points.

I'll sum up my coments to this:

If you have evidence that a particular ad is not truly representing an animal correctly, or you have knowledge about the person posting the ad that might prevent others from being ripped off, then by all means go ahead and post. If all you have is a gut feeling, or a hunch that something is not right it is probably best kept to yourself.

If I feel like spending more time later on I might come back and make the individual responses (consider yourselves warned)


Steve Schindler

 

[bpc]

A rose by any other name is ........

I think it is VERY DANGEROUS to try and determine morphs period. Sure albino and piebald and some others are easy. But try and define "pastel," "hypo," "hyper," "okeetee," or "creamsicle" and you're in for a lot a problems. I just hand picked about 35 baby balls, and several of them are what I will sell as "pastel." To me pastel is just a term used to describe a high contrast ball with lighter than normal coloring. To some people, pastel must come with a $10,000 price tag and a receipt from some "big-time" breeder.

I sold a w.c. nonfeeding "pastel wanna-be" last weekend at the Raleigh show for $125 to another vendor who scooped it up before the show even started. So obviously, "pastel" has many different definitions and many different levels of people who are interested in them. Hypo is another favorite of mine. Most of the people posting here saw the thread concerning Greg Riso and Todd Smith. I expressed an opinion about the boa in question, stating that I didn't believe that boa was a "hypo." Several people disagreed with me. So there are no definite answers to these questions.

Genetics is another story, but it's not much better. One can never prove an animal in not a het. Reguardless of what we all would like to think "hets" will not hold up in court. Why? Because, it is totally possible to breed a het with a recessive animal and get wild type offspring. The only thing one can do is prove the animal is actually a het, when it produces the recessive offspring.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I just hand picked about 35 baby balls, and several of them are what I will sell as "pastel." To me pastel is just a term used to describe a high contrast ball with lighter than normal coloring.

"Pastel" is also a term used to describe a genetic morph though...

Such as the "Pastel Blondes" that Royal Matrix used to produce...

It IS a trait that is genetic...

You don't find it dishonest to utilize a name that has been accepted as an industry standard for a genetic morph on something that's simply slightly similar?

Personally I see that as being deceptive bordering on fradulent, you can ascribe whatever fool name you want to a pattern but when you use one that is widely reccognized as being indicative of a reccessive trait, you're lying to your customers.

I could name my individual animals... rather than being "The big one who keeps trying to bite my face off." I could name them things like "Het for Piebald"... sure it's just what I call the individual animal, but if I were to try and sell it, it would be seriously misrepresentive.

Tying this in to the original post/question about when it is and is not acceptable to post something about suspicious actions...

We've acknowledged that reputation of the seller plays a huge role and that reccent behaviors can cause suspicions as well (Buying a 50 lot of normal balls one week, advertising "possible hets" the next as an example)...

There have been a few instances where someone posted on the BOI describing a fairly minor deal gone wrong or deal called off... Gilbert Thompson for instance... Where the actions didn't seem like that big a deal (not following through after comitting to a sale) until it turned out he'd been doing it for a long time to a lot of people, jerking sellers around left and right.

Had someone (I'm too lazy to go check who) not posted that initial complaint asking if anyone else had similar experiences, Gilbert might still be doing it to people who each believe it to be an isolated event.

So there's a potential upside to jumping early and detailing minor inconveniences, but the downside is ending up in a drawn out argument over trivial matters and potentially saying negative things about total innocents.

Thank you all for your thoughts on the matter, I'm still on the fence myself, but seeing the opinions of others (most of which seem to be up in the air still like mine) has given some interesting perspective to the issue.

 

[bpc]

Seamus, "pastel" is a term, nothing more. That's my point. There is NO set definition for the term "pastel." The word is an adjective. You can't say industry standard because there isn't one. Do you really think all the "okeetee" corns produced and sold each year can really be traced back to the hunt club. I had bloodlines that I could trace back there at one point, but it got to the point of ridiculous when the customers didn't even know what I was talking about when I mentioned the hunt club.

Bloodlines are great, but who's to say that my pastels aren't genetic also. Now, to qualify myself, I am very honest with all my customers and tell them pastel to me is just how the snake looks, it is meant to imply that the pastel phenotype is what the snakes are displaying, and is in no way any type of a proven genotype or bloodline. Albino is easy to see, hypo, pastel, screamer, etc. are all judgement calls.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Albino is easy to see, hypo, pastel, screamer, etc. are all judgement calls

Albino, hypomelanistic, axanthic and the like are all terms that are related directly to the animal's biology/physiology and, being understood to be such, there can be multiple factors that cause the trait, some genetic, some not...

Pastel and Screamer are terms that were applied within the herp industry and vary in their meaning industry-wide when looking at different species BUT...

As soon as the term becomes applied to a genetically proven morph for any individual species, it becomes dishonest to apply it to animals not carrying the genes.

Looking at Ball Pythons and the term Pastel... it applies to a proven codominant trait and should not be used as just an adjective.

 

[Python Dreams]

Their are characteristics that make up what is known as a Pastel Jungle or Pastel Ball Python; Light colored irises, bright coloration, an outlined darker pattern with the gold showing through (blushing), the top half is a darker gold than the bottom half, and a nearly patterneless white belly.
Pastel Jungle Ball Python is a known morph and a co-dominate trait. Meaning if I breed a Pastel to a "normal" I will get 1/2 Pastel babies. If I breed Pastel to Pastel I will have a 1/4 shot at producing a "Super Pastel"....
So when people see the term Pastel being used in relation to Ball Pythons they expect to see the genetic morph. To me seeing a light colored Ball Python posted as a Pastel looks very ignorant, borderlining on scammish. Their are many different words out their avalable to describe anything, and it seems really odd to have to pick one that is already used to describe a desired trait. I think that it probably steers people away from someone that does this....
Thanks, Tom Baker

 

[The BoidSmith]

As soon as the term becomes applied to a genetically proven morph for any individual species, it becomes dishonest to apply it to animals not carrying the genes.

I'll have to agree with Seamus on this one. I caught myself calling one of my balls axanthic, in fact there is not even one yellow spot on him, only black white and greys. What else to call him? Non-yellow-dude? He is an adult and he looks even better than any proven axanthics out there!

But after giving it a second thought I realized it was not right to call him axanthic. Why? because he did not come from a "proven line" (e.g. Joliff or Sutherland). Thus it would mislead someone thinking I had an animal from that origin. So I made up a name just for the fun of it. After all I'm not going to sell him and he is having offspring this year for the first time. Now, if after breeding him to his daughters or the offspring among them I do get black and white individuals, well...

 

[Rob BryertonRKK]

I agree with all three of you.
You can't call it a morph name unless it has a bloodline or you yourself can prove it out. I have a couple of "non yellow dudes" that haven't been bred, one is over twenty so time is winding down. I feel bad for them, but I had to breed the Def Het Males that I purchased because I know they carry genes that are proven.
In 03-04 I hope to breed him to a "normal" female, and then breed him to his daughters. I will sell the males as normals. Even if the offspring looked axanthic I wouldn't be comfortable selling them as that. It's so far away it would be easier to buy a Def Het. But he's a great snake and I want his genes normal or not.
I had some Striped Boa babies in a litter in '01, no idea where the parents came from so after talking to some Big Breeders I sold the non striped babies as 66%Poss Het for Striped UNPROVEN for $75. I had 1 buyer. The others I sold to a pet store as CB Boas $75. Go figure. I still have two stripes and four Poss unprovens. Hopefully someday I'll prove them out. But until I do I should let everyone know just because it's Striped doesn't mean it's genetic.
I've have found that the problem with proving your own morphs out is: 1. It takes a long time. 2. It's expensive and 3. Your wife wants to know why you only sold 20 out of 60 that you produced.
Please note: #3 is a Hypothetical # cause if she finds out, there will be a selling Blitz or me and my "kids" are out of here.LOL
Rob

 

[bpc]

Guys, I understand your argument, but I don't think it holds water.

Pastel - A soft delicate hue; a pale color.

That's the dictionary definition. One cannot trademark an adjective. Now one could say for example "Smith line pastel ball." I make no claims as to the genetics of these ball pythons, none. But, they could still easily be described as "pastel" because they have a soft delicate hue.

You are assuming there are "industry standards," there aren't. Look at what has happened to the term "OKEETEE." Okeetee is the name of a hunt club that produced big pretty corn snakes. 10-12 years ago and before if you purchased an Okeetee corn, most likely you were purchasing an animal whose bloodline could be traced back to said hunt club. Now the term has been bastardized to apply to ANY big pretty corn snake. Most of the people buying Okeetees, and I bet half of the people selling them, have no clue what Okeetee means. Some people can't even say it right.

I think you risk to much when you take subjective names (like pastel and hypo) and try to hold standards to them. And again who's to say that these "pastel balls" I have are not displaying a genetic trait. Maybe a different strain such as with albinism in boas. Hey, it could even be the same genetic condition. I don't sell them for proven genetics, I only sell them as the phenotype they actually display.

 

[The BoidSmith]

One cannot trademark an adjective.

Brian,

You might have a point there. I have been struggling with that myself. Terms such as axanthic and anerythristic describe an animal condition not exclusive to any company/breeder. Maybe breeders should have used other names. It is clear cut with piebalds and albinos, not that easy with other variants. Another example is the "mojave". Pretty straight forward. No one can claim breeding mojaves if they didn't come from that bloodline originated in one animal from the Sutherlands.

Regards.

 

[bpc]

Alvaro, what's strikes me as funny is even with 12 years exprience doing this, I have no freaking clue what the hell "mojave" means. Mojave to me is a desert or dessert depending on which spelling means a hot dry place. It's a nondescriptive term. Guess maybe I should go look up a picture of those and see if I have any babies that look like that.

Some other favorites:

Melting pattern

Busy pattern

Reduced pattern

I even made up one of my own, "cartoon phase" because I got these ball in last year that looked like someone had drawn it.

 

[Python Dreams]

I personally thinks its comedy.... Is the term pastel something that pops right up in your head for that coloration? Not mine... Only because it has been used before and it is desired do you use it. I find it very funny that you would stick to a term that is being used for a genetic morph. I also think that certain newbies after hearing your argument might think that they lucked into a real pastel, not a so called one. Has nothing to do with wether your light colored ball has proven out Do your "Pastels" fit the description I left earlier? Take axanthic for example. If your snake lacks yellow pigment it is an Axanthic period. That is not the argument. Wether the genetics prove out or not is what people worry about. Their are certain lines that have been around and are proven as genetic and their probably some axanthics that are not genetic. So if it does not come from a proven line then you would have to breed it out to prove it genetic, not to prove it axanthic. Correct me if I'm wrong.

These are terms used for Ball's that have a certain pattern and are valuable, not for a light normal. As far as Mojave goes, it is a very good looking morph that varies greatly from normal. This has also proven out genetic. What is your problem with someone picking out a name (such as Mojave) and giving it to this morph? What would you name it? If another one pops up and is not from the Snake Keeper lineage, but has the same pattern as their Mojave's it would be a Mojave. This would now be the accepted term for a Ball that looks like this. They bring in new Pastels all the time, and just because they have not been proven, they are still Pastels. Just because you have a problem with the term Oketee and its definition does not mean that you should come in and try and overwrite whatever is going on in the Ball industry. Do some research and learn something about what is going on in the Ball market... It is not rocket science. Go to some of the breeders websites and look at their pages describing genetic morphs. Its weird how so many people can get it together, but some just dont get it. And it's never someone that is actually selling anything desired as much as the Pastels. You wont see someone that as learned what a Pastel is and actually has them for sale posting a $125 light normal as a pastel. Why is it always the guy that doesnt have Pastels? So what happens when you come across an actual Pastel? What are you going to name it? The super bright yellow, blushing, light iris, high contrast Ball Python thingy? Think about it for a little while... So what should the whole Ball Python industry do to display genetically differing snakes that are rare and valuable Brian? What should we all do now to clear up something that is so obvious? I will post a picture my Pastel female that I purchased from the Snake Keeper. If your so called "Pastels" look like this, let me know and I will buy quite a few of them. Oh wait, yours have light coloration, you might as well try and confuse your clients and be all around dishonest to try and sell some snakes as Pastels. Even if your "Pastels" prove that their pattern is genetic, it still is nothing but a light normal. Post a pic of your "Pastels that you have for $100 and show me I'm wrong. If its a Pastel I will give you $150.00. Look at this and think about your next post. This is a very good looking pastel and their are darker and less pretty pastels, but they all have the traits that make them pastels, and they all have the ability to produce a Super for you in the future.. Unlike your Ball's... To me this is ignorance at its finest. Im goint to get in my new H2 Hummer... Wait, I have an Xterra, but it has four wheels, and engine, and is an SUV.. Really similar to an H2. I'll just call it a Hummer.
Thanks, Tom Baker