Tony Cueto Bad Guy! (reptile shows)

[KNOBTAIL]

BRIAN

Brian, just out of curiosity, did you pay for the Tampa show and then received his email.? JERRY TRESSER

 

[bpc]

Jerry, yes. I sent Tony a paypal payment. It was only part of total amount because I had to get verified in order to send the whole amount. I asked Tony to accept it as a desposit and bill me for the rest so that I could pay the full amount.

 

[BWSmith]

I think one thing being overlooked is the attendees. Before making the trek to a show, i look at a list of the vendors. If there is noone there that I want to see, I generally won't go. In fact, I stopped going to most shows simply because it is no longer a place I can get quality animals at good prices (unless you know the vendor well). Many have become basically a hundred pet shops in one place with the same prices. No real bargain there except selection.

Of course Tony has the right to have whoever he wants at the show. And I realize that he loses money when vendors say "I will not be there if 'HE' is there". But how much money does he lose when attendance starts to drop BECAUSE certain people are not there and the deals are no longer present. When the show gets to a point where where it is all private breeders with way too high of an opinion of their animals and the pricetag to match. Chances are those people that complain will be unpleasantly suprised when Brian or others are not there and thier sales STILL suck. Then we have people screaming "we can't make any money here because noone is buying and there is not enough traffic".

I am not a big spender at these shows (education doesnt pay much). I only dropped about $500 at the Columbia Show. But that is the only show of Tony's that I go to because it is the SHHS Banquet weekend. Why just that one? Because certain vendors no longer attend. Plain and simple.

All I am trying to illustrate is that it is not just keeping the vendors happy. The attendees are what keep the show going. The minute you care more about the promoter or vendors, you begin to kill the show. Sure you need vendors, but without people coming in, it would be a mighty quiet show.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Veronica,

You are absolutely right on every point you addressed. It is no one's right to tell you the price for which you can sell your snakes.

However, here is the flip-side of that same coin:

"Big Breeder X" comes to the shows promoter and says, "Look I don't want Veronica underselling her animals to the point where I cannot sell mine. I have higher end morphs than she does, and my animals are obviously worth more because of my reputation, experience, and the animals' genetics. However, the average guy off the street doesn't know ANYTHING about such issues, and she is costing me my sales! So, Mr. Promoter, here's the way I see it, you can either keep Veronica out of my way at your shows, or I can keep her out of my way by not being at your shows. Considering that I give you a lot more money in your pocket than she does in table expenses AND in drawing people to the show in the first place . . . which one of us are you going to side with, Mr. Promoter???"

Now, you may not like that, Veronica, but it's simply a sound business practice that is accepted in all other fields of commerce. Why do you think restaurants serve Coke OR Pepsi, but never both? I sympathize with the smaller breeders as they sell at shows, because I am in the same boat. But it's just like you said about your animals being sold at your prices, Veronica. If we don't like it when the big boys and girls play hardball . . ."TUFF!" That's just the way it is.

 

[veronica]

So your bascially saying they price fix at these things?
thats illegal.
I know of many businesses that price fixed and were fined.
Even dr's were doing it. PRice fixing is illegal.
I've been to hair shows in new york and they far from price fix there. You can haggel on the prices of everything.
These are big vedors from major companies.
I"ve never been to a herp show but the last day of these hair shows they cut prices really low just to get rid of everything.
Do the breeders at herp shows do that also?
lower the prices the last day just so they can unload their stock?
Also, dont they usually haggle on the prices?
I've talked to people who go to herp shows and get snakes, lizards etc. really cheap. They told me they went all 3 days but the last day they haggled and the vendors basically cut their prices in half just to unload the stock.
Just trying to get a feel for these shows myself. I would never want to be a vendor... i certainly dont have the stock to do it but would love to attend one. Just read so many "BAD" things about them i've been reluctant to go.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

a secure vendor

is not going to concern themselves with what other people sell their same items for. Let me give you a perfect example. Next to my booth is Ron Tremper, we have been side by side for alot of years at Daytona. I certainly dont have to tell you that their are probably more Leopard geckos on tables throughout that show than are born in India, but Ron sells his Leopards each year, and he is not cheap. If anything, his geckos are probably the most expensive ones at the show. He relies on his reputation, on his service and guarantee and having a Tremper Leopard is an assurance that you cannot get better. Ron does not give two hoots about who is selling what cheaper or any of the other nonsense that Iam reading about. Believe me folks, he does very well! People who are serious buyers, who know what they are looking for, will gladly pay more . Buying cheap is not necessairly buying smart. You get what you pay for. As a matter of fact, Ron does not want the customer who is going to argue about an item being $ 10.00 to high. Rons customers start at $ 400 to 1,000 for each animal. He gets his price, and yet, their are Leopard gecko breeders all over the place complaining that they cant sell their geckos because so and so is selling them so cheap.

So what I am basically saying is that everything depends on what kind of customer you are looking for. Personally, I tell people to shop elsewhere if they attempt to haggle at my prices. I dont need that kind of sale that ends in misery. So this business about about Tony taking action against Brian because vendors complained about loosing business is ludicrous. It shows you the calaber of these vendors, their pettyness, immaturity and who their market is directed toward. 5 and 10 cent vendors , looking for 5 and 10 cent customers. JERRY TRESSER

 

[TJEvans]

I think Jerry had touched on something that I've seen WAY too many times at the shows I used to handle. Some vendors, while great at keeping animals and breeding quality stock, just are not the best sales people in the world. I've seen countless people sitting at their tables, head down, not even LOOKING at the people that walk by their table. In order to make money, people NEED to be able to sell.

I went to Hamburg on one occasion and began looking at teh venomous section.....at about the third table, I asked a question about one of the snakes, only to be told that the person that owned them had gone to get something to eat, and that the person sitting there was just "watching" their table. Considering the size of Hamburg, do you think I waited? Do you think I went back? No, I wrote it off and figured I'd find something else to buy.

The problem with making a decision about banning a vendor due to low or "undercut" prices is that maybe he's just a better salesman. If I were a vendor at that show, and a potential customer came to me asking why person A has lower prices, I would do eveything in my power to convince them that I have better quality stuff......WC vs CB, etc. Give them another kind of deal maybe.....If your stock is superior, give them a better guarantee, better customer service, etc. Near my house is a large shopping area. Target is just 1/2 mile from Walmart, and Super K-Mart is just another mile away. Competition is everywhere. I don't see Target getting upset because Wal-Mart has a better return policy, lower prices, etc. In fact, Target might just benefit from being so close to the competition. If somebody doesn't find something at Wal-Mart, they'll go to Target.

If Brian is no longer at Tony's show, and he DID have lower prices than everyone else, that alone might effect the sales of every other vendor at the show. For as long as people have been going ot the show, they might have always bought from Brian, then got a cage, food, lighting, "friend," for whatever it is they bought. If nobody buys from Brian, then the vendors that would normally have the residual sales will suffer. Eventually, people will believe that there is nothing of interest at the show, and will not continue to go back.

It is my belief that promoters are only there for one reason, to provide a service to the paying customers and make money off of the table sales and the take at the door. Many times this money is just enough to break even, for running the show. They are NOT there to make the vendors happy. If a vendor is not happy and doesn't come back, well it's obvious that they didn't have anything wirht buying since nobody bought. If a vendor sells only CB black Mambas, is it the promoters responsibility to track down EVERY black potential black mamba owner to come to the show in the hopes that they will buy one of these VERY specialized animals? I don't think so. A promoter doesn't control the market, they just provide it. Should the ads for the show state "if your not willing to spend money, don't bother coming?"

It's just rediculous to assume that a promoter of ANY show is responsible for a vendor, or vendors, having a bad day.

Anyway, that's my rant.

Thanks
Todd Evans

 

[Clay Davenport]

It is price fixing in a sense and it's everywhere at the shows. It's not the level of price fixing where several dealers get together and decide what to price their animals, but it's an underlying mentality that creates the situation. Nobody wants to be the one to undercut the others, not by much anyway, for fear of making the others mad.
Anymore the only monetary benefit of buying at a show is you save shipping charges. The whole idea of "wholesale prices to the public" is just marketing rhetoric. The prices are no better than you see on any internet classified.
I don't go to many shows anymore for that reason, and all the crap behind the scenes is why I haven't been a vendor in probably 5 years. I was in Columbia for the hot show and spent a very enjoyable day talking friends and making new ones, but all I bought was an iced tea. The shows are alot different than they used to be and they're just not buyer oriented anymore.

The majority of the vendors at the shows are what you might consider professional vendors. They're at all the shows, with the same stuff and the same prices, and the majority of them are dealers. In my opinion these are the ones who will be more apt to complain about being undercut and low sales.
I prefer to see the breeders at the shows, both small timers and the big names, but breeders rather than dealers.
I've always gone directly to a breeder to acquire my animals whenever possible, that's just my preference, and I miss seeing alot of them at shows where dealers now have 5 tables lined up with their imports and everything for resale.
Banning a vendor based on the fact he is selling at a better price does absolutely nothing but encourage this environent. Tony is not price fixing, but if that is the reason he refuses to allow Brian a table then he is facilitating it indirectly by eliminating competition. If the dealers can't compete with another dealer, too bad, I have no sympathy.
Shows with nothing but dealer after dealer with huge exhibits just turns a show into a great big pet mall. They're attracting droves of sightseers who act like it's a zoo exhibit, and many newbies who might pick up a cheap ball python or leopard gecko. They are not attracting the serious herpers though, who spend the serious money. They are going to the breeders, many of which don't bother doing the shows.
The Raleigh show is packed every year, so much so it's really a hassle just to try to see what's on the tables. The vast majority of this crowd are just out for a day with the family to see the snakes, many of which drift over from another even taking place at the same time. Sales are down because the shows are attracting the wrong type of attendee.
I only say this as an example and nothing else, but I've spent around $5K this year on reptiles, I went on a bit of a buying spree after saving up for two seasons. Of that amount I spent a grand total of $15 at a show. The dealers complain about Brian undercutting them, but when he's not there I seriously doubt their buisness will be any better at all, they're just not attracting the customers.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

CLAY, your absolutely correct

and if Tony does not smart-up himself, he will find that the vendors that he is attracting will be the poorest of the lot. Especially those that scream the loudest. You hit the nail on the head between dealers and breeders. Thats why Ron Tremper does as well as he does, and to the right of my booth is Frank Retes, another international top of the line breeder. Do you think Frank cares if other people are selling monitors cheaper. Frank is selling Frank, and Ron is selling Ron. They both do exceptionally well at Daytona charging more than any other vendor for their herps. Their premier breeders, and they attract attention. Whereas if Tony bows to the pressure of some of these weekend herp dealer wheelers, people will go to see the same old stuff, and make a holiday out of it. Where the serious buyer will deal privately. I dont go to those shows any longer myself. Nor do I participate in any show other than Daytona.

Although I basically have no competition, because of the limited availability of Nephrurus geckos, I demand , to rub shoulders with better quality people , and I would not relish the thought of being placed next to a vendor that crys for 2 days about other vendors. Tonys Tampa show will just turn into one big pet shop show. JERRY TRESSER

 

[veronica]

as a potential customer I myself would go to the better known herpers and would pay a bit more for an animal that I would be assured would be of a better quality.
So this guy saying that he had 7 vendors complain about this one guy under cutting him is a bit hard to swallow. If they are good breeders and have good stock they are not going to worry about someone with wc's.
A friend of mine bought 2 giants from Ron Temper and they spoke many times on the phone about them before she ever bought one. So im sure if hes willing to spend the time out of his daily schedule to talk to people for hours on the phone here and there I'm sure at a herp show hes going to discuss proper care to new customers and explain housing etc.
Problem here I think really comes down to the wc's and who he delt with in the past to get his stock.
I really dont think the issue is his under cutting the other vendors at all. Me thinks its a deeper issue here and the under cutting is just an excuse.

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

I just wanted to say that I've been doing Tony's show in Atlanta for 3 out of the last 4 years he's been doing them. I have alsot attended the Columbia show several times and was a vendor there once.

I will admit that at the Columbia show I did not do exceptionally well, but I was only there for Saturday and could not stay for Sunday. Is that Tony's fault that I didn't do well? No. Is it another vendor's fault I didn't do well? No. The Columbia show is geared more towards the venomous community, and I simply didn't have anything to fit that niche(leaf-tail geckos and some other odds and ends). At the Atlanta show, I have done well every year. I and my friends that do that show with me only sell quality CB animals or imports that we have had for some time. I did sell some newborn Idonesian Tree Boas last year at a very low price. They were non-feeders and I went through extensive talks about what exactly these animals would need and how difficult they are to get established as babies. I have never spent so much time talking people out of $10 baby snakes before! They ended up all going to a guy that spent close to two hours listening to everything I had to tell him and who I deemed responsible enough to care for them(I had talked roughly 50 people out of buying those baby snakes).

There were a couple of other people that had the same type of snakes, but nobody complained to me about my prices being too low or me undercutting them. One of my friends that breeds Leopard geckos that shared one of our tables had animals priced substantially higher than the majority that were available from the "weekend wheeler dealers." She nearly sold out. I also did very well and sold several snakes and geckos which were priced equal to and in some cases higher than their equivalents on other tables. My other friends that were with me did extremely well and almost sold out of their CB Rosy Boas.

I never heard one complaint from another vendor about any of our prices other than having one laugh at the price of my friend's Leopard Geckos, which she ended up selling more at the higher price than he did at the lower price. He was selling babies very cheap, should we have complained to Tony that we were being undercut? No. We sold fine just the same. If there were vendors complaining about Brian's prices, I think it is very pathetic and immature. I have heard rumors of people at some of these shows telling people not to buy from other vendors. If you can't sell your own animals without bashing another vendor or complaining about prices lower than your own, find a new business.

Jerry hit it right on the head. Vendors need to sell themselves at these shows as much as the animals, if not more. I go to a show, a customer gets to learn everything they need to know about that animal. They get a caresheet if I have one printed, or I will simply write out care info on a piece of paper for them. They will get my e-mail address in most cases, as well as my phone number should they have questions/problems. They may pay more from me, but they will get service and quality animals with that price. If another vendor can't sell themselves and therefore has to worry about another's prices, then that is their problem, not the promoters, not anyone's but theirs. Either drop prices to match, learn how to sell, or find a new business.

I will continue to do Tony's shows as I've found Tony's customer service to be top par and his shows to be very enjoyable and profitable. I personally have to say I don't agree with his banning of Brian due to price wars(if that is indeed the reason), but at the same time, I don't run his show, he does. He had his reasons for banning Brian as well as his rights to do so for any reason he saw fit.

 

[bpc]

See this is what really sucks about this. No matter that him banning me was totally crappy. Everyone will still go do his show. I can't even really say that I blame you. He does put on a good show. I'm really beginning to think he's losing it. Look at this email he sent me yesterday.

I had not refunded your deposit because I had considered possibly giving you one last chance but how you handled situation makes it ever clearer that I want no association with you

Compare that to the first one I got where he says:

Please do not call attempting me to change my mind, the decission has been make.

So which is it, you're banned, don't call. Or you're banned, but I'm considering giving you another chance??????

Can we say lack of communication skills, boys and girls.

 

[TJEvans]

I see that the guy is getting pressured from both sides. I believe that he really wantsw to let you back in, and that he personally had nothing against you, but once again, he's thinking about the pressure he'll get from those vendors that don't want you there. I think he has to think deeply about what's more important. Keeping a vendor that he likes and can tust, or keeping the vendors that don't sell well, that complain about everything. I know in my experiences coordinating a show, I would prefer to have the vendors that are nice, don't blame me for them doing poorly, and understand what supply/demand and competition is. He should sit back and decide which vendors he feels are more important. I will say this to him though. If you buckle to their pressure on this instance, they will NOT stop complaining about everything else.....they may even complain more.

Thanks
Todd Evans

 

[KNOBTAIL]

TODD & ROBERT, you are both correct,

and Brian, I think Tony has to set his priorities straight. I hope Tony reads my final message: putting aside serious infractions, vendor issues such as prices are vendor problems not promoter problems. The only time Tony should step into the picture is if their is an infraction of the rules of the house, and price related problems are not house related issues. Secondly, if the vendors threatened to walk out, they are not worth having in the first place, and let them walk. Their shoes can be filled. Their are always better people. Finally, what are you going to do when they start complaining about someone other than Brian?

Best of luck Brian, and I hope the situation somehow gets resolved peacefully. JERRY TRESSER

 

[WebSlave]

Man what a sticky situation this is. I think Tony is caught in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. No matter what he does (or did) he was going to catch flak about it.

I think Tony is very concerned about the number of shows that are cropping up in the very near future. Probably with good cause. I have seen a lot of vendors just go away, which tends to reduce the likelihood that all, or even most of the tables at those shows will be filled, much less CAN be filled. Couple that with the fact that vendors just cannot do a show every weekend, and you have a roadmap to there being a fallout where some shows just will not survive. Tony just doesn't want to be one that fails, and is probably looking for the equation that will insure his survival in the coming crash.

So what is Tony trying to do in order to insure his survival? What does he need to do in order to (1) insure that vendors will want to do his show instead of another one that might be competing for the same time slot or locality? and (2) have what it takes to get the people to come in through the door to see the vendors and hopefully buy merchandise from them?

One is related to the other, obviously. People come to a show in order to see the vendors and hopefully find something that they will want to buy. Vendors want to go to shows that have not only a lot of traffic, but traffic that has a high proportion of BUYERS in it. Vendors will need to be looking at the bottom line for each show in order to determine if they want to come back the next time around, or try a shot at a different show if the results they got were a bit disappointing.

Walk-ins come to a show hoping to see variety and hopefully better prices than they can find shopping on the net or at the local pet shops. Or maybe even willing to pay higher prices for the specialty items that they now get a chance to see up close and personal so they can make a sound decision on making the purchase. That's what shows do for them, and that's why they pay the admission fee.

Now a slight aside here. Personally I am not fond of the zoo and circus types of shows that seem to be getting more prevalent. These are the ones with the petting zoos, and advertise to the general public a wide range of attractions other than the opportunity to buy merchandise at the show. I can see why a promoter would want to have this sort of show, because it greatly increases the traffic coming through the door, which is their bread and butter in this business. But personally, someone coming solely to pet the tiger, or ride the camel, is probably not going to be suddenly overcome with the urge to buy one of my corn snakes to take home with them. While a show with 20,000 such attendees would be great for a promoter, I have just had 20,000 people walk past my tables with nothing to offer except to ask if those corn snakes are "poisonous". I would rather have stayed in bed that day.

So back to the main thread. What is Tony trying to do? Why was Brian banned and what is hoped to be accomplished for the long term? Personally, I don't care much what someone else is selling their animals for anywhere else in the show. They will eventually be gone from this business when they finally realize that the money they are making is not paying for the time and effort required to be in this business. I can wait them out.

If someone has unhealthy animals, eventually the buying public will figure this out and no matter how cheaply they try to sell those animals, they will not be able to unload them. The number of "vendors" who do nothing more than get in a boatload of animals on Thursday and then set them out on their tables on Saturday and Sunday to sell them is disheartening for a breeder. All we hope is that the buying public will get tired of buying animals that will likely die on them in a month and smarten up about their purchases. What we fear might happen, however, is that the buying public will assume ALL reptiles die like that, and just buy a hamster instead.

I don't know Brian and have no idea what he sells or what the issues were between himself and Tony. I am simply stating what my perspective is as another vendor and what I try to see in the crystal ball about my participation in future shows. A vendor has to make sound decisions about what they do at a show and sell to the public if their long term survival is to be insured. After all they are competing for the buying public's spending money. Promoters of shows are now going to be in the same boat, and vendors are going to have more choices available. Just setting up a show and opening the doors inviting vendors is not going to be enough. Some decisions need to be made, and not all of them are going to be the right ones.

Hah! What a convoluted piece of rambling this is! Sorry, I've been typing this in over the entire day between doing other things. But there were several points this thread has brought to mind to me that should have been isolated and plugged in the thread where appropriate. I should go through and heavily edit the entire thing, but I'm out of time to do this.

No offense was intended to anyone. I just think everyone needs to step back and take a look at themselves and truly evaluate their position. It is entirely possible that both Brian and Tony are wrong in one sense, yet right in another, depending on what perspective you are viewing the situation from. But personally, I feel that banning anyone without a rock solid reason, and especially without firing a few warning shots first, may be a bit hasty in the present environment for reptile related shows.

 

[bpc]

One final request before the show.

Well folks, I hope everyone has a good show this weekend. I guess I'll be sitting at home loading pics onto the net. And crying into a beer or two. Tony has responded to an email I sent him and asked me to lay off until after the show, and then perhaps he will consider discussing things.

He also said that no one has contacted him to say that I should be allowed back in. So here's the request. If you have a problem w/ what happened, please take 30 seconds this weekend and let him know. Tony is very influenced by public opinion, so perhaps if 20 people walk up to Tony and tell him that he should reconsider, he will. If you think he's right, email me so I can reconsider whatever it is I've done to deserve this.

Thanks, Brian

 

[elago]

I think that it is just crazy that you are banned from the shows. The last Tampa show I went to seemed as though some of the prices were too high (NOT ALL). I don't believe anyone should be able to tell you how to sell or how much to charge for your animals. Maybe you will consider going to some lesser known
and not quite as big shows. Birmingham AL has a great show but is in need of more variety. The prices there are almost always reasonable (I go every month) and most of the people are very friendly and of course no one would tell you how to run your buisness. I just think it would be nice to get some more intrest generated. I am truely sorry that anyone, much less a "friend" would try to oust you from the shows b/c you were doing too well for everyone's liking. I hope you continue to do well in spite of the set back with the shows. Good luck with everything! E. L.

 

[evansnakes]

There are really a couple simple issues here regardless of opinions on the people involved and their behavior or business practices. Every show the size of Tony's (I did some of his too and just do not remember but he does have) a rule sheet stipulating vendor behaviors and business practices. So what you would have is that on that sheet Tony would have to have said that you could or could not price your animals in a certain way in order to justify refunding your money. Now with that said, that is illegal. On the other hand if he does not stipulate that, which I am sure he does not, then he is in breech of your contract that you entered into when you sent him payment and he accepted it. The overcrowding issues do not apply as you paid for a show you had not yet done. So he would have to be psychic to know that you would for a fact overcrowd animals. Either way what he is doing is illegal if you wanted to pursue it.

A show promoter should do just that. Promote the show. It is great when people only want quality animals in their shows but I have been to many of Tony's shows and I will guarantee that if you went to the Tampa show there would be a bunch of tables where animals would be just as overcrowded as he is accusing you of doing here. Rules apply to everyone equally. If not applied equally it is discriminatory and you already have him basically telling you in the letter that he is dropping you because he thinks you price animals too low. He is just throwing out lies to justify his behavior.

 

[WebSlave]

Speaking of bannings....

Scroll down to the bottom of this page:

Tampa Show Exhibitor Listing

Armstrong Cricket Farm (Show and Halloween party sponsor)
Reptiles Magazine (Show and Halloween party sponsor)
Twin Oaks (Halloween party sponsor)
Exoterra (California)
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Wholesale Vivarium Supply (Florida)
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Davey's Snakes (Florida)
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Mikes Motleys (Florida)
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Jonnie Ballentine (Florida)
Jimmy the Lizard Wizard (Florida)
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Ridgeway Reptiles Inc (Florida)
Jamie Quick Reptiles (Florida)
Charlotte Barnett (Florida)
Kissie's Workshop (Florida)
Janie Hendley (Florida)
Rick Tantalo (Florida)
Bob and Mike's Colubrids (Florida)
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D&H (Florida)
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Tampasnakepit.com (Florida)
Herpetological Breeding Research (Florida)
Dale Woodruff (Florida)
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Smelt Feed (Florida)
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JB Imports (Georgia)
Brian Morris (North Carolina)
Premier Air and Water (North Carolina)
M&J Cages (Indiana)
BWI Reptile and Exotic Animal Show (Maryland)
Northern Virginia Reptile Expo (Virginia)






Exhibitors banned from the show

Dave Lawson, Lawson Reptiles (Florida) suspected of animal theft at show. Writing numerous bad checks to other vendors at the show last March.

Guess I had better respect the WebSlave's request about links....

 

[evansnakes]

You learn something new every day. I thought Dave just stole pics of others animals and used them to sell animals he did not have. I guess he steals the animals too.