Tony Cueto Bad Guy! (reptile shows)

[herpetological]

Show

I don't think anyone should be banned on the basis of their prices. I think it's just a lot of B.S. If they have poor quality specimens or cause problems... that's another story. We did quite well at the show. Not because our specimens were cheap...some weren't. We did well because we sold better quality specimens at a slightly higher price. Just one example: Our iguanas were 15.00. Others were selling imports for 6.00. We brought 50 iguanas that we held back and were healthier and better colored than anyone else. Yeah, it takes more work but, the end result is amazing. Sure we had people asking us to match prices but, we politely refused. We explained how much work we put into all the specimens we offer and therefore do not come down. We offer not only quality specimens but more importantly customer support and advice. We even had people at our booth asking advise on specimens that they were purchasing from other vendors. We were happy to give it. Many of those same people came back the next day and purchased other species from us just for that reason. A vendor is not only selling his animals but, his business, knowledge and ethics. We had only one person complain to us and it was about another dealers' animals, not prices. She said one of the dealers (I will refrain from names) had a ball python with two big ticks on it. She pointed it out and the dealer replied that it was an import what do you expect. That was definately wrong. Those are the ones that need to be weeded out or banned. I saw Rob's tables and spoke to him several times. I saw no bad animals or problems. I wouldn't expect any either. Sometimes you just have to ask before you make a judgement. Thanks Ray G. HBR www.herpbreedingresearch.com

 

[Adam Block]

This whole thread is insane! It now makes me understand why people won't do/have/go to/ buy from or deal with shows that even allow WC animals..

Sounds like Lee Watson's swap from back in the day, great prices on animals that never lived long. There was that guy with the red curly hair, never knew his name, we all just called him Dr. Death.

The sale of WC animals is 100% motivated by greed and money. It's sick that there is even a debat in here about where/what the smell at a show was from. You do understand how sad it is that we have a page of posts trying to find out about an oder at a show right. I mean, you do know there is just something all together sick about this right?

I don't care if you sleep at night or not but this shouldn't be an issue. The show should be put out of business by morals and that sheer number of people that won't support it cause they have them.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I attended the show this weekend (in fact, I just got done driving 24 hours straight to return from it, so I may be a bit discombobulated on this post..lol)

First, if Tony kicked out Brian to clean up the show, well I hate to say this, but he didnt acomplish his goal.

I am not a peta nut, and by no means am I a beginner. As such I hate to post some of the things Im about to say, but I figure I must. I am gonna try and generalize rather then point the finger at one vendor or another, as I am friends with many of the vendors at the show.

Yes the show smealt like death. Not fecies, DEATH. Anyone who was at the show early saturday can tell you that. Anyone who says different is trying to be nice. One area in particualar smelt worse then the rest.

I also seen a number of animals on display for sale that should not have been. If Tony is trying to clean up that show, he dropped the ball there.

Personally I keep a fairly exopensive collection of high end boas, and I would never have considered bringing any of them for display, ect. If I am some day lucky enough to produce with them, Im not sure I would trust to bring the babies to a show like this (hell any show anymore).

On another note, I think all of the vendors in Florida need to think about what they are doing to the market down there. This was the worst Tampa Show I have been to yet, and I have a sad feeling this is the start of the decline. I really hate to say that, but I fear its true. The number of customers were down, and as such so were sales. It appeared few of the vendors were happy with the outcome of the show, and you could feel it in the air Friday that little was expected of the weekend. I think the economy has a good part to do with it, but more noticeable would be the large number of shows popping up in the Florida area. I think the industry as a whole needs to step back and look at what we are doing to ourselves. Honestly there needs to be a mroitoriuam on new shows, and steps need to be taken to fix or save the old shows. We could some day look back at this hobby and see a shell of what it once was. I used to sell baseball cards as a child, and can tell you from first hand experiences, niche markets are ugly when the crash. Today a pokeman card is easier to sell then a Nolan Ryan rookie card. Some day the same could be true for a anole compaired to a pied ball.

What all this has to do with each other I dont know...lol. I know I need to sleep, and I also know we as an industry need to do a better job of policeing ourselves.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
402-934-9906

 

[brucestephenson]

I still say it was a fine show. If you go to a show that advertises captive born, wild caught, mammals, a petting zoo, and a camel ride, that is what your going to see.
You have to attend the show with an open mind and a new frame of reference compared to Daytona. If you don't, your setting yourself up for a disappointing experience when you could have lots of fun like I did. Sincerely Yours, Jim Morrison aka Bruce Stephenson.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I wasnt speaking to the set up of the show.

I have done over a dozen of Tonys shows as a vendor, and I always have enjoyed them. The mood and experience at this show was not the same. I understand Tony is going through changes with his staff, and the market is crap to say the least, but if hes gonna start "cleaning up" the show, he has more work to do, that is all I was pointing out.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles (name inspired by Mr Morrison...lol)

 

[gila7150]

I had a good time too. I went there with a couple hundred bucks to spend on dry goods and frozen mice and that's what I left with. Like I said, there were good and bad vendors there.
There was a faint smell of urine and feces from the mammals throughout the show but the smell near Aline's table was the smell of death....it's an unmistakable smell and it wasn't subtle.

You have to attend the show with an open mind and a new frame of reference compared to Daytona.

Agreed....I can accept it for what it's becoming (which is basically a circus/herp show/pet fair/flea market)
That doesn't mean I didn't have a good time. I enjoy going anywhere to look at herps. I go to Tampa to look around and Daytona to spend money on herps.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

And with that, Chris you summed up part of the problem with what Tampa is becoming.

If all that people are doing is going to look, I assure you the quality of vendors will drop also.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
402-934-9906

 

[brucestephenson]

I bought alot of cork bark, 12 musk turtles, and some books. Mostly, because I was tapped out from some monster ticket buys over the past year. What did some of you out there listening buy?

 

[WebSlave]

Well, this is wandering all over the place as far as focus is concerned, so let me put in my 2 pence.

A while back I put up a poll on what it takes for people to consider a show as being a "good" one for them. I was rather surprised at the low expectations most people had. In fact, I thought that some people MUST be getting free tables as well as room and board, simply because there is no way someone could continue doing business in such a manner.

And this may be indicating the dividing line between those people doing this as a full time business, and those doing this just for pocket change. If you are doing this as a business, you will be looking at the bottom line the show presents to you when all is said and done. Shows that are not profitable for a vendor will likely not have them returning. If I sell $1,000 worth of animals, and my overhead is $500, I would make out a LOT better by just staying home and running a 50 percent off sale over that weekend. Every show takes a minimum of 5 days out of my life. I do like the social contacts, and getting out of the house, but to be honest, maybe I should take those 5 days and go lay on a beach every now and again.

What's likely to happen is that people are going to be trying out the new shows, simply because of the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" phenomenon. Everyone is hoping that a new show at a new location will mean a more profitable show for them. Also as likely, is that this utopia will not be realized.

I cut back the number of shows we did this year from last year. I will probably cut back even more for next year. When you combine the fact that the hourly wage I earn for doing a show is bumping heads directly with the fact that most people coming to a show expect to get bargain prices, it is getting harder and harder to justify the time, expense, and stress every show causes me. When I cut a show out of my schedule, it will be because the bottom line for that show just was not high enough to make it worthwhile.

As for the number of shows, people will have to make choices. Not only do you need to choose between shows that may be taking place during the same weekend, but if you are putting any sort of care into your animals, back to back shows are just not very feasible without having your animals suffer because of it. Choices will have to be made, and timing itself could be a big influence on the success or failure of a show.

I think shows are going to get VERY competitive. The promoters are going to be wooing the vendors and trying very hard to make their show attractive to as many vendors as possible. And still, there is absolutely no guarantee that they ALL might not melt down anyway.

As a vendor, this is a real tough business to be in when just about every customer you have has intentions of being YOUR competition in a few years.

 

[Jovcham]

in response to rk's comments

No I was not in the market for a panther, I already have to many hehe and I do not try to haggle prices with vendors, this is their living. I dont like it when people do it to me so why would i?
2... I personaly pointed out a small dead flapneck ( I believe it was flapneck) That you ask where then said "oh I could not see it from back here" you said that alot of them got overheated. then you pulled it out.
3... even though it looks like it. I am not here to jump on you and say your a bad guy. I know getting imported animals in bad condition is not your fault, you are not the collector you cannot determin how they are collected. I am mearly pointing out that tony is saying he is trying to clean up the show by banning this guy that started the thread, saying he had poor looking animals and overcrouding and bad smells. well there was still all of that at the show.
4... rk this is just my oppionion but I think all of those mellers should have been behind the booth the whole time. I am happy that you brought them to care for them since they were not in the best of shape, and not left them at home or whereever. Perhaps you should have labled the cage as "not for sale" this would let everyone know you are not trying to sell sick animals.
5... as for the smell at the other vendor in the back... numorus people smelt it and posted, maybe later saturday they cleaned it up and there was no smell. I cannot say. but it was there and strong that morning from the little brown water tank not a animals fresh laid feces.

 

[dwedeking]

My Observations On Shows

A promoter is targeting two different crowds. The first is the vendors who want a no nonsense, sales driven event. Now the other side. I talked with one hobbyist recently who stated she'd have no problem paying the ticket fee for both days if they had decent work shops and talks about the animals. The general public is looking for something that will fill their weekend, an event so to speak. I'm seeing more and more general public (as opposed to the reptile freaks like us) at the shows, reptiles are becoming more mainstream.

The internet is changing the face of the shows. You can usually find deals on supplies and feeders online (everyday, making the habit of waiting for the next show obsolete). Most species can be found online. While still significant the offline market is shrinking on a daily basis. The thing that is missing online is human interaction.

Those vendors that are feeling frustrated with show sales need to look at how they are presenting themselves. If your only "point of difference" is price, your going to be pounding your head against a wall as everyone shaves a nickel off their price to get the next customer (who next year will shave a nickel off the price to be your competition). You need to start exploiting the one thing the internet lacks, the ability to talk with your customer, showing your experience (a valuable point of differencein my opinion) and knowledge. I believe (enough so that our business plan is based upon this opinion) that there is enough of a market out there in discerning collectors, hobbyists and general public that will pay a little extra to buy quality animals from quality vendors.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I dont know how much presentation, price, or experience would have helped this weekend. I would like to think we had them all covered, and it didnt help us any.

We had a very nice display in my opinon, great looking animals (90% captive bred), and insaine prices (to low actually). This all combined to mean squat this weekend.

Ive done Tampa a few times, and a number of Florida shows, and from what I hear, and seen this weekend, I am very worried about the show market in Florida, and in General. I think the time of being the better salesman, or nicer presentaton have long passed us by.

Case in point, I dropped my price down to 50 ea this weekend on nearly 4 inch sulcatas. All were very clean animals, and worth far more then this. I was allready the lowest guy at the show for the size, and still when people came up to me, first words out of their mouths were "can you give me one for 40". I would go over the fact that I normally sell the same torts for 85 ea in my market, and how my torts were very clean animals, and if they like compaire the quality, ect. Well most didnt care about anything out of my mouth after "no I can GIVE YOU MY ANIMAL FOR NOTHING".

This is what the shows are turning into. I seen a number of vendors selling out displays, ect. I also noticed a number of people who normally have large displays, had cut down the number of tables they had. This is a sign of things to come.


Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Ok that is correct. I forgot about that animal but that is 1 animal and not 3 as you stated and there were no animals with runny noses nor any signs of URI. This was also at the very beginning of the show and if I remember correctly we were still setting up at that time or had just finished. Also I would have loved to have been able to put all the Mellers that were not for sale behind the table early on but there was not enough room. We had to wait for free cages to make space. The animals that were not for sale were pointed out to customers when they were looking at them. There were some in there that were in great shape that were for sale.

 

[dwedeking]

Great discussion.

We did both San Diego shows this year. July's was filled with bargain hunters (what I've dubbed the Kingsnake Crowd, though not all are users of KS). Octobers show was a completely different group. Price wasn't as much of an issue and they spent money freely (individual purchases were for larger amounts). Sometimes it's just a roll of the dice on who walks in the door.

I think shows are no longer the mainstay of reptile sales. The purpose of shows for us are 50% sales that day, and 50% to drive our residual sales and build brand recognition. Shows are a great place to "put a face" to your website or online ads. It's easier for someone to send money over the internet if they feel they know you (even if it's just a 60 second conversation over torts)

 

[bpc]

). You need to start exploiting the one thing the internet lacks, the ability to talk with your customer, showing your experience (a valuable point of differencein my opinion) and knowledge.

That is EXACTLY what makes me so angry about Tony saying that I sold some kids ball pythons and then didn't tell them how to take care of them. I spend HOURS at every single show I do explaining, teaching, and training people about thier animals. Whether they purchased it from me or not.

I'm glad everyone is coming and relating thier stories about the show, but good and bad. I emailed Tony to let him know what was going on, so we'll see if he has time to respond.

 

[bpc]

His reply:


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:48 PM
To: Conley, Brian
Subject: results of your emails requesting support


At the show I had 11 vendors specifically mention your thread and emails you sent out. Every one of them said they could not understand what your problem was. Not one sympathized, thought I was unfair or sided with you. Most thanked me for having courage to implement and enforce standards that are for all of our benefit. Ken Robertson said that if anyone questioned you going around, not just Orlando but all the shows, see what others are selling animals for and then undercut them drastically all throughout the show, to just ask him, as he and other vendors have witnessed it as well and know for a fact that is what you do. Ken has no motive to lie and from my years of dealing with him know he has always been very honest and factual in anything he has told me. Members of your herp club sided with me. If you know of any vendor that supports you, you might ask them if they said anything to me because as of this afternoon, not one has!
Many of the 11 vendors that mentioned your campaign this past weekend questioned your integrity, motives. They know I am a very fair person, honest and reasonable and have to wonder how, after you are warned, then banned, you start a Tony Cueto bad guy thread as well as emails slamming my shows and my decision and threatening " I will do everything I can to destroy you and your shows", you expect to be invited back to participate in my shows.
I will tell you that another show promoter is considering banning you just based on how you have handled the situation. They expressed their concern that you would do the same to them if they ever ban you so they felt that it would be better to do it now so the public would understand their decision as a show promoter of not having a trouble maker, an individual threatening to destroy their show among their vendors.
I have friends, influences in this industry, if I wanted to play dirty like you, I could easily contact other show promoters, warn them they are dealing with a time bomb that will explode if they ever have a problem with you and encourage them not to accept you as a vendor. I have not done that, infact the one promoter that called me, I specifically asked them not to do it just for me because we are friends.
I do hope that you will consider, not one individual has steeped forward in your support and that your continuing campaign is not accomplishing anything but alienating you. Had I been proven wrong, I make mistakes, I would have admitted I was wrong. However, your campaign only reinforced that I made the right decision, especially with more individuals confirming what I knew. Please do not continue with this issue, it is not going anywhere and what can be gained? I do not like having you as an enemy, I am sorry if you honestly feel I was unfair I always try to treat everyone fairly and believe I did considering we had a long discussion last year about the very same issues.

Tony Cueto
Director
Southeastern Shows


I have decided that, from now on, all matters pertaining to this problem will be discussed here. Tony can decide to participate or not. I will email him to inform him of this discision immediately after this posting.

At the show I had 11 vendors specifically mention your thread and emails you sent out. Every one of them said they could not understand what your problem was. Not one sympathized, thought I was unfair or sided with you

I found this surprising, so the first thing I did today when I got home was to call Mike Carlton from Inland Sea and ask him if he had a chance to talk to Tony about it. His reply was yes, he did and he told him he did not agree with the decision. So either Tony forgot, or he's lying.

Rob from RK, has posted in this thread that he did not agree w/ the banning. Now, I don't know if he had time to talk to Tony about it or not, but either way, Tony has blinders on when it comes to what is being said. Or people are saying one thing here and to my face, and another to Tony. Of the people whom have given me thier support, I doubt any of them would do that.

Ken Robertson said that if anyone questioned you going around, not just Orlando but all the shows, see what others are selling animals for and then undercut them drastically all throughout the show, to just ask him, as he and other vendors have witnessed it as well and know for a fact that is what you do. Ken has no motive to lie and from my years of dealing with him know he has always been very honest and factual in anything he has told me.

I believe it is common practice to see what other vendors are selling items for and to price your items accordingly, is it not? I do not know Ken, so this is not a personal attack, but if Ken was being "drastically undercut," to the point where he could not compete, wouldn't that give him a motive to get rid of me? And while we're here, what sense would it make for me to drasically undercut anyone? Now, if drastic is the same price, or maybe a buck lower, then yes, I am guilty. But why would I sell an animal for $5 when everyone else is getting $15? I wouldn't, no one would, and if they did they wouldn't be in business very long.

I will tell you that another show promoter is considering banning you just based on how you have handled the situation. They expressed their concern that you would do the same to them if they ever ban you so they felt that it would be better to do it now so the public would understand their decision as a show promoter of not having a trouble maker, an individual threatening to destroy their show among their vendors.

Tony, the other shows I currently do are:

Lauren's shows down south

Alex's Tallahasse show.

I have already spoken to Lauren, and she has told me that she would be contacting you personally to try and get you to change your mind. So, if she's the one, then she's lying to one of us, and I don't think Lauren would do that. If she has a problem w/ anyone, she'll tell them right then and there. Perhaps, you could ask her for lessons.

That leaves Alex, and we all know Alex is your friend. If Alex wants to ban me over this BS then he is less of a man than I thought. And I also doubt that. Alex has enough of a backbone to approach people w/ problems and deal with them as they happen. Perhaps that's why you had him deal w/ all the JP issues last year. He took each issue addressed it, and we worked together towards solutions. Solutions which you were left to carry out, after Alex decided to leave your organization. Solutions which included, you letting me know if you saw any further problems, so that I could correct them immediately. Do you remember that Tony? That was you, I could hear in the background wasn't it?

Many of the 11 vendors that mentioned your campaign this past weekend questioned your integrity, motives

My integrity? Simple, I'm not going to take this lying down. You want to hurt me, and ban me from your shows? No problem, as I've said in several emails to you, I don't WANT to be your enemy. But, if we can't work this out, which it is painfully obvious we can't, then so be it. My motives? My motive is now very simple. Get as many people as possible to visit this site and read this thread. I think it speaks for itself. Let's see 1000 business cards w/ the web address on it $18. A couple of kids to hand them out, $6 bucks an hour. Gas to drive to your shows, $20-50. 6000 plus hits in less than a week, PRICELESS!!!!

Please do not continue with this issue, it is not going anywhere and what can be gained?

I will continue as long I wish, exactly because there is nothing to be gained EXCEPT for the public knowing exactly how backasswards you handled this situation.

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Unfortunately I did not get a chance to talk to Tony at the show about this situation. In fact I did not even have spare time to do my normal looking around and finding things to purchase while at the show.

I did say that I did not agree with the banning if it was over the price issues. I said if the show is portrayed as or advertised as Wholesale to the public than anyone selling at wholesale should not have a problem. If it was over customer complaints I would have expected for you to hear about them all and given an opportunity to resolve them before a final Banning such as this.

I really wish I would have had a chance to talk to him to hear his full side of it to try and get all the information from both sides so that I would have a better idea of all the issues.

I really enjoy doing Tony's shows and will continue to do so as they are great shows and we do well at them, and it is alot of fun getting to hang with everyone for another time. I wish you would have been able to work things out in your situation so you would still be able to do the shows as well Brian. Good luck with everything on this situation.

 

[Alex Russell]

Since my name was mentioned...

Tony started calling me about 3 weeks ago saying that he had nothing done for the show because he didn't know how to do anything and couldn't figure it out. As many of you know, I fractured my back on Labor Day and was having a particularly painful week. I begged off even though Tony was saying that I, not him, was letting the vendors down. Because I am a big softee or stupid, I agreed on the Sunday night before the show that I would go over for as long as I could to help him on Monday. He told me that the registrations had not been entered and I told him that had to be done before I got there. But, as I suspected would happen, he had not entered the registrations by the time I went to his office at 9pm on Monday. I already had plans to leave at 3am Tuesday for New Orleans. At 12:30am, when I had to leave, I had spent all of my time entering vendor registrations, never even getting close to making badges, sign in sheets, table cards, lunch tickets, or the floor plan. Because I could not stay and would not cancel the appointments I had in New Orleans, he turned nasty at that point and said he would treat me the same when my next show came around. This is when he pointed out that ALL of the vendors that came to Tallahassee were there because he told them to go as a favor to him. I don't think so little of any of you to believe that.

When I went to Tony's office, I already knew about the situation with Brian. I asked him to re-think his decision to bar Brian from the show. I reminded him that the conversation I had (not Tony) with Brian was not about this issue. Yes, Tony was yelling in the background as he always did whenever I was talking on the phone, but the conversation was with me and not with Tony. In that conversation, I told Brian he needed to register as Brian Conley and not JP Pets and bring his own animals. The other thing we were asking was that no matter what his return/health guarantee was, that he make sure his customers were aware of it. Brian had no problem with these requests. There was never any mention nor did Tony tell me to mention anything about Brian's pricing. There was only discussion about JP Pets and that Tony did not want Joe Kreffetz at his shows. So, yes, Brian, while there may be a fracture in it right now, I do have a spine and did speak on your behalf. I have not heard any complaints about Brian Conley from the Tallahassee Show. If anyone really knows something different, please let me know.

As for me being Tony's friend, Tony has said countless times over the past year that we are not friends anymore. Although, when he did call me a week ago, he did ask me to help him "if nothing else, as a friend." I have known Tony for 18 years and know him better than anyone. I am sorry to say he is not the person I knew a long time ago. I have been quiet, protected him and even lied for him. He has threatened me and my shows and tried to intimidate me the way that he tried to intimidate Lauren. I have only confirmed, when asked, things that vendors have already figured out on their own. I am continuing to do shows because of how much I enjoy planning them and how much I enjoy seeing all of you. I am well aware that the shows would not exist without vendors. And that vendors should not be treated the way that I have seen them treated. Vendors should not be screamed at and brought to tears as Beth Moody was this past weekend when she took some things off of her table and was accused of trying to skip out without paying the money she owed for her space. Vendors should not be accused of "sneaking people in" because the promoter forgot that they paid for tickets for guests the day before. They should not have to prove that they paid for the show because the promoter lost their registration form. When lunch is promised, EVERYONE should get it and not be told that it is just a "courtesy" anyway. Vendors should not have to move their displays when they were told to "pick a spot" because there was not a floorplan. Vendors should not be threatened with loss of their space at a future show when they cannot attend a particular show. Vendors should not have to wait at a venue for the Promoter to arrive late. Vendors should have responses to their e-mails and phone calls. Vendors should not be lied to. If you can find all those vendors who said that this was their best Tampa show ever, you may find all of the vendors who were complaining about Brian Conley. You may also be able to figure out how less than 5000 attendees equates to the trumped up number of attendees the Promoter publishes. And how did one of the photo contest winners at the FIRE Show not make it to the show because he was an American Soldier on a ship in the Persian Gulf when, in reality, he was captaining a yacht up the east coast from Florida? I managed to squelch that story before it made it into REPTILES magazine. Please tell me if I ever appear above needing you, the vendor. Yes, I have a spine. And I am trusting you all have one as well.

Alex Russell
Gila Productions
www.gilaproductions.com

 

[Darin Chappell]

Well, all of THAT certainly sheds a new light on this mess!

I'm still not sure this all makes Tony a classic "Bad Guy" in the herp business as we generally classify one (ripping people off, selling sub-standard animals, etc.), but definitely makes one question his judgment and his honesty, doesn't it? Even so, that appears to be a simple question of semanitcs at this point.

Tony, what do you have to say now? It certainly seems as though Brian has been backed up by Alex considerably here!

 

[brucestephenson]

I would now like to officially vote for this as: " Best Thread in BOI History." Bruce.