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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

KNOBTAIL said:
Secondly, you do not need their or any one elses permission to copy and paste website information if it is being used for purposes of an explanation.!!!!

What???


KNOBTAIL said:
Aside from which, are you going to tell me that TSE would even conceivably entertain some type of lawsuit against someone who copies their TOS for purposes of showing their procedures to others.......I dont think so.!!!!

TSE or Moonlit media just might, you never know. Was it fair to put Fauna/Rich in this situation without finding out if it was alright to do on his site. If Webslave is fine with is then so be it. Why put his site in a legal position?
 
lucille said:
I think though that it might be good not to get into a feeding frenzy where we start attacking each other. I think everyone who visits Fauna wants the same thing: good quality reptiles and reliable customer service. I think that focussing on those goals would help everyone.

Calm down. If someone's post gets your knickers in a knot, just ignore it, if we all end up destroying each other, who will take care of our reptiles?


Lucille, maybe you don't ALWAYS need to play peacemaker? Nobody threatened anyone here. People have opinions and should be able to express them.

Nick, was the proof of the nasty emails from TSE not enough for you? How about the proof that it took months to ship? What proof are you waiting for? Yes it would be nice to see vet reports and pics of the animals, but the evidence in this thread is overwhelming.
 
jglass38 said:
Lucille, maybe you don't ALWAYS need to play peacemaker? Nobody threatened anyone here. People have opinions and should be able to express them..

Lucille has a valid point

jglass38 said:
Nick, was the proof of the nasty emails from TSE not enough for you? How about the proof that it took months to ship? What proof are you waiting for? Yes it would be nice to see vet reports and pics of the animals, but the evidence in this thread is overwhelming.

Go back and look again, that was all typed, it doesnt show the sender or recipient or anything, I can type something up and say you sent it to me as well. God, just do things the right way!!! Post the entire emails with header text and pics showing the affected animals. Every other thread on the BOI has proof of the details but this one.
 
Nicolai, come on now!

it should be quite obvious that we are dealing with a business that is operating on an avoidance inssue here. Assuming that you are correct in requiring someone who posts a complaint against TSE to provide proof of their claim: how do you justify those complaints where the customer has received nothing...........not even an acknowledgment! I dont see you complaining about that.

I think if people like yourself feel the need for concrete proof, and you are unwilling to accept a persons complaint about TSE, then how much proof would be necessary for you to contact TSE yourself and see if any response on their behalf is forthcoming. I doubt they would answer your emails either.

Granted that does not proove any admission of a problem, but it does show a callous disregard for some commons sense business ethics , which I am sure you will agree at this jucture , leaves much to be desired under its present method of operation.
 
KNOBTAIL said:
it should be quite obvious that we are dealing with a business that is operating on an avoidance inssue here. .

Absolutely !!! I agree with you .

KNOBTAIL said:
Assuming that you are correct in requiring someone who posts a complaint against TSE to provide proof of their claim: how do you justify those complaints where the customer has received nothing...........not even an acknowledgment! .

Where am i justifying that I AGREE WITH YOU !!!!!!!


KNOBTAIL said:
I think if people like yourself feel the need for concrete proof,.

Its not the "NEED" for proof is is what is expected on the BOI and required legally.

KNOBTAIL said:
then how much proof would be necessary for you to contact TSE yourself and see if any response on their behalf is forthcoming. I doubt they would answer your emails either. ,.

I have tried to contact them and got the same thing... No reply.. Once again I AGREE WITH YOU !!!


KNOBTAIL said:
Granted that does not proove any admission of a problem, but it does show a callous disregard for some commons sense business ethics , which I am sure you will agree at this jucture , leaves much to be desired under its present method of operation.

Absolutely.. once again I AGREE WITH YOU !!!!
 
Nicolai, then we basically agree

that their is a problem here that a normal business operation would not entertain. That the omission of not providing any information is enough to put some serious doubt into the minds of a reasonable person who would contemplate doing business with TSE. That if this course of action continues on the part of TSE, then its just a question of time before either they close up, or their customer base dwindles to the point of no longer doing business.

I think we both can agree that this is the only intellegent outcome. I doubt that by the good graces of Chris or any higher authority, their will be a drastic change in TSE................For all intents and purposes, at this point, any person complaining about TSE even without proof, can give an opinion which does not have to be based on fact, just as we are doing here.

But I think we both know that if these postings were put on a scale , I think it would be quite lobsided in favor of the poor performance of TSE and their methods for dealing with whatever fragile business remains. One other point. if these people are employees of TSE, they themselves will want to get paid, and where do you think these monies are coming from since Chris has wahsed his hands of the operation..............the people who may have paid in advance and cannot get their money back.
 
Hey Nick,
I think that I have some sympathies with your views, but I draw more distinctions between the BOI, or negative feedback aimed at a supplier, and a Court of Law when it comes to "proof". I have no problem with your high standards, but would also say in the same breath that many of us do not need as high of a level of proof at this point. Speaking for myself, if I required proof with every customer of mine that complained, it may be seen as a penny-wise and pound-foolish approach. There's enough on the table here for me to expect a better response from TSE at this stage, and to have a considerably negative impression if they don't do a better job. Certainly speculation has abounded more in the latter half of this thread, but I do not blame those who are wondering or worrying, rather TSE for not nipping the problems in the bud before they went to full bloom. I still see the "maybe they are too busy" excuse offered, and to that I would say that any business that is too busy to care for the goose that lays the golden egg deserves no sympathy as a business. To more than a few of us, the benefit of the doubt evaporated some time ago, the odor is still bad, and we suspect that we haven't found everything that's rotten yet.
 
jglass38 said:
Lucille, maybe you don't ALWAYS need to play peacemaker? Nobody threatened anyone here. People have opinions and should be able to express them.
.

And I expresses mine, do I not have the same rights as others?

I think a calm reasoned approach focussing on the concerns of those here about their money, and the approach of the new management in whether or not those concerns are being taken care of, is what is important.

I believe ad hominem attacks to be worse that useless because it uses energy that could instead be used for thoughtful problemsolving.

And yes, I always need (or try) to be a facilitator and peacemaker. It has been my experience that when people look at each other and talk to each other with honesty and courtesy, they solve more problems. This is not to say that strengths on one's side such as the law have no place, they do indeed, but one's strengths can be, and should be asserted calmly and with the goal of solving, not destroying.
 
TSE or Moonlit media just might, you never know. Was it fair to put Fauna/Rich in this situation without finding out if it was alright to do on his site. If Webslave is fine with is then so be it. Why put his site in a legal position?

Nicolai, I thought you moderated a web site? You can't be serious about the above quote. The internet is public domain and un-copyrighted material is freely copied all the time. If TSE is concerned, they need to have everyone choose a password and agree to terms before joining. Then he MIGHT be able to control what is copied from his site. Sometimes copying from a site isn't exactly ethical(that's not the case here) but it is never against the law, or subject to litigation.
 
i asked a question a while back, has anyone proven any hets from tse? i really didn't see any concrete answers. i have another question, has anyone done trades and sell to tse? my personal opinion, if it looks like poop,smells like poop,tastes like poop. it is probably poop! no scientific study or court of law needed... plain common sense would tell me all i need to know in this matter.

vaughn
 
Vaughn, I know what you mean to say:

my personal opinion, if it looks like poop,smells like poop,tastes like poop. it is probably poop! no scientific study or court of law needed... plain common sense would tell me all i need to know in this matter.

"If it looks like poop", its usually enough for me, but if it "smells like poop" too .... well, no taste test required !! :rofl: That said, I agree with your analogy !!
 
nicolai said:
Do you think that was a good idea?? You just copied pictures, trademark, Company name (TSE's and Moonlit Media) and other copyrighted material to another website without the permission or TSE or Moonlit media. You gave gave them the legal right to come after someone for this. I bet Lucille knows the laws pertaining to this. Dont you remember the KS fiasco just for putting his name and such here, and you copy pasted stuff here. You have to think about things before you do them.

Since this was brought up, and probably applies in lots of other instances on this site as well, I guess I should address this. Actually this was discussed in my moderators forum not that long ago. It's what is called Fair Use of copyrighted material:

In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and "transformative" purpose such as to comment upon, criticize or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner. Another way of putting this is that fair use is a defense against infringement. If your use qualifies under the definition above, and as defined more specifically later in this chapter, then your use would not be considered an illegal infringement.

So what is a "transformative" use? If this definition seems ambiguous or vague, be aware that millions of dollars in legal fees have been spent attempting to define what qualifies as a fair use. There are no hard-and-fast rules, only general rules and varying court decisions. That's because the judges and lawmakers who created the fair use exception did not want to limit the definition of fair use. They wanted it--like free speech--to have an expansive meaning that could be open to interpretation.

Most fair use analysis falls into two categories: commentary and criticism; or parody.

1. Comment and Criticism

If you are commenting upon or critiquing a copyrighted work--for instance, writing a book review -- fair use principles allow you to reproduce some of the work to achieve your purposes. Some examples of commentary and criticism include:
  • quoting a few lines from a Bob Dylan song in a music review
  • summarizing and quoting from a medical article on prostate cancer in a news report
  • copying a few paragraphs from a news article for use by a teacher or student in a lesson, or
  • copying a portion of a Sports Illustrated magazine article for use in a related court case.
The underlying rationale of this rule is that the public benefits from your review, which is enhanced by including some of the copyrighted material. Additional examples of commentary or criticism are provided in the examples of fair use cases in Section C.

2. Parody

A parody is a work that ridicules another, usually well-known work, by imitating it in a comic way. Judges understand that by its nature, parody demands some taking from the original work being parodied. Unlike other forms of fair use, a fairly extensive use of the original work is permitted in a parody in order to "conjure up" the original.

source: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-a.html

If anyone needs any further clarification of this concept, I believe a search on Google may help to reach that goal.
 
As far as copies of Bob's vet reports for the "proof" certain people are asking for, Bob was kind enough to scan them and send the actual report to me. They are exactly as he says they are. If Bob is agreeable (and if I can figure out how to post pdf files on here), I would be more than happy to post them. I will not do so without permission from Bob, however.
 
I think that clears it up 100% Rich.
 
I am curious, how many people have purchased homozygous (visible morphs) balls from Topshelf. How many people have met Chris Johnson at his shop, shows etc..Where did Chris buy his animals originally? Anyone? Isn't Topshelf in New York? We are in a small town Michigan, and I have personally met at least 30-40 of the people who post here regularly. Surely there is someone with first hand knowledge who is not afraid to post here?
 
They are located in Western New York, near Buffalo. I haven't done business with them but had been thinking about it, and I live nearby. From a few emails I sent to Chris when I inquired about an animal a while ago, they do not have a retail storefront and that's why they prefer not to give out their street address, to prevent people from showing up unannounced just to "browse", but Chris had indicated that if I wanted to purchase an animal, they could arrange for local pickup. He has been a retailer for several years, I think longer than I have been in the hobby.
 
v2rherp said:
i asked a question a while back, has anyone proven any hets from tse? i really didn't see any concrete answers. i have another question, has anyone done trades and sell to tse? my personal opinion, if it looks like poop,smells like poop,tastes like poop. it is probably poop! no scientific study or court of law needed... plain common sense would tell me all i need to know in this matter.

vaughn

Agreed!!!!!!!
 
jasballs said:
Agreed!!!!!!!

Double agreed!

Questions still remain as Vaughn mentioned.

1. Has anyone proven any hets sold by TSE?
2. Is TSE producing their own BP morphs or reselling others? If they are reselling, shouldn't they be passing along genetics paperwork from the ACTUAL breeder? Also, if they are reselling others BP morphs, shouldn't they stop lying and claiming that they produced them?

It would be simple enough for someone from TSE to come here and answer the second question. As far as the first, I guess that remains to be seen.
 
Cat_72 said:
As far as copies of Bob's vet reports for the "proof" certain people are asking for, Bob was kind enough to scan them and send the actual report to me. They are exactly as he says they are. If Bob is agreeable (and if I can figure out how to post pdf files on here), I would be more than happy to post them. I will not do so without permission from Bob, however.

I don't think Fauna permits PDF files, but you should be able to conv't them using Photoshop though the quality of the PDF would deteriorate. If it would be of help, I can post them on my server with a direct link.
 
lucille said:
And I expresses mine, do I not have the same rights as others?

I think a calm reasoned approach focussing on the concerns of those here about their money, and the approach of the new management in whether or not those concerns are being taken care of, is what is important.

I believe ad hominem attacks to be worse that useless because it uses energy that could instead be used for thoughtful problemsolving.

And yes, I always need (or try) to be a facilitator and peacemaker. It has been my experience that when people look at each other and talk to each other with honesty and courtesy, they solve more problems. This is not to say that strengths on one's side such as the law have no place, they do indeed, but one's strengths can be, and should be asserted calmly and with the goal of solving, not destroying.

Feel free to express whatever you want. However, nobody was attacking each other or showing disrespect and your intervention wasn't really necessary. Basically you made it look as if I was attacking him.
 
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