Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[Chameleon Company]

Nick, you have a way of saying things that makes my head tilt.

...... If businesses are forced to answer for the small problems (shipping delays, mites) they may not ever get to the point of the really bad stuff (taking people money, giardia in animals, fraud ) what have you .............. My point being, catch them when they are on the road to destruction not when they have become what we fear the most. The true "Bad Guys". Whether Chris turns out to be one of the true "Bad guys" or makes everything right remains to be seen, but we as a reptile community should and could have seen this coming if we would have gotten info out there in the early stages........ Whether Chris turns out to be one of the true "Bad guys" or makes everything right remains to be seen

Maybe its just me, but I remember you making quite a few posts in the first half of the thread saying that people were basically jumping to conclusions about Chris. Even now, your last sentence indicates that the jury is still out on whether or not Chris will qualify as a "Bad Guy", apparently because he is still alive, and if alive, may still make restitution ? Isn't that the case for every past living "Bad Guy" then, and maybe CRE and others haven't been shown to be "truly" bad yet? Is it another case of it needing to be written on a 2 X 4 ?

BTW, the warning signs on Chris that went over the line but were not brought to the surface in a timely fashion were the long shipping delays and failure to refund. He was becoming pretty unique in that manner.

So you recommend a thread on someone if they ship an animal with mites? Great way for customers to burn bridges IMO. The thread would be warranted if the shipper didn't fix it, but I think your suggestion is poorly thought out. Of course, its "do as I say and not as I do" for on top of it all, you are encouraging others to take this more stringent stance, and surprise surprise !!!! You still rate Chris as a "Good Guy"! To the uninformed, to delete a "Good Guy" vote is not to switch to calling someone a "Bad Guy", its just to delete a vote. Nick, did the thought ever cross your mind that it is people who think and act exactly as you do who enable people exactly like Chris?

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Does anyone know what bank Chris may have been affiliated with.

 

[nicolai]

Of course, its "do as I say and not as I do" for on top of it all, you are encouraging others to take this more stringent stance, and surprise surprise !!!! You still rate Chris as a "Good Guy"! To the uninformed, to delete a "Good Guy" vote is not to switch to calling someone a "Bad Guy", its just to delete a vote.

I really wish you could make a point without pointing a finger constantly. Why do you feel it neccesary to jump on me everytime i make a suggestion or comment? I gave an opinion as to how i think we can improve things and yet again you take it to a personal level which i didnt do. I already explained my "good guy" reason (please go back and read it if you want".

Nick, did the thought ever cross your mind that it is people who think and act exactly as you do who enable people exactly like Chris?

Yes, i must be this terrible guy for wanting to help out and make suggestions to try to improve things. Maybe i should be another one of the silent majority so you wont have anyone else to point the finger at and then you'll have to keep you posts relevent to the thread and helping resolve the issues at hand. How many people on this thread are enjoying the way you are and have treated me so far? Maybe thats why they dont want to post.
Oh and I know what your response will be " now your playing the pity me role again" or "your trying the dont bully me stuff again" or maybe even " we know where your loyalties are" or something of that nature. I await you citiquin of me again. Go ahead and post what I am doing wrong now, its expected.

 

[nicolai]

"I await you citiquin of me again." = "I await your critiquing of me again"

 

[Lucille]

I see that a few of the members had problems with tse this time last year (mites, shipping delays etc.) I wonder why no one brought this to light before on the BOI. Do you think it was intimidation or fear of retaliation or what. I think if these issues would have been brought up last year you wouldn't have as many people in this situation this year. I know a lot of people don't want to post stuff like that on the BOI if fear of politics or even ruining a good businesses reputation, but when these things happen we need to use the BOI more to get information out to people so they know there might be a problem.
Right now it appears the BOI is either used to say how great a company is or to crucify a bad one. I think it needs to have more of the "middle" ground to disseminate information to people with regards to all aspects of peoples businesses. If businesses are forced to answer for the small problems (shipping delays, mites) they may not ever get to the point of the really bad stuff (taking people money, giardia in animals, fraud ) what have you.
My point being, catch them when they are on the road to destruction not when they have become what we fear the most. The true "Bad Guys". Whether Chris turns out to be one of the true "Bad guys" or makes everything right remains to be seen, but we as a reptile community should and could have seen this coming if we would have gotten info out there in the early stages. I hope that all made sense to everyone, was not trying to critisize anyone but rather just trying to enlighten everyone as to how we can all help each other avoid this in the future.

Nicholas:

No one in their right mind would criticize Chris in past times. He romped through the BOI making critical posts as if he was tearing live flesh and hurting anyone he could, and by the tone of many of the posts, it seems he enjoyed those romps. The ONLY reason this thread is here is the magnitude of the sick snakes and money taken with no snakes shipped, and the courage of some brave people who came forth to tell their tales of being ripped off.
I went back a year or so and looked at some of his posts to others in the BOI:
They were rife with examples like this:

funny how he thinks anyone gives much thought to any drivel that spews from his mouth. craziness..... lol
__________________
C. Johnson
Top Shelf Exotics
TSE Forums

Tell me, Nicholas, who do you know that would risk saying something to Chris of a negative nature in those days, to head him off of 'the road to destruction'? Not even a BOI thread, maybe just a 'heads up' somewhere else on the site?

 

[Casey Hulse]

How many people on this thread are enjoying the way you are and have treated me so far? Maybe thats why they dont want to post.

Not all of them, that is for sure.
Everyone's opinions should be able to be expressed, anyone can disagree without attacking or insulting the others character.
Jim, you would become pretty bored if you were the only one posting here, Right?

 

[Casey Hulse]

No one in their right mind would criticize Chris in past times. He romped through the BOI making critical posts as if he was tearing live flesh and hurting anyone he could, and by the tone of many of the posts, it seems he enjoyed those romps.

He was a strong ally, he was great to have on your side for sure. I know I was leary of getting involved in this thread for that very reason, he pretty much tore my buddy (not) Jim S. a new a while back.

 

[tejasranger]

I expected yet another reply ignorant to the facts I have given you and you have not let me down. Congratulations.

I am not wasting any more time on you. When our accounts are in order you will be issued your refund after the animals have made safe arrival at an intermediary location and no sooner. You’ll know more when I know more and no sooner. If this is unacceptable I suggest you continue to cry on the shoulders of your fellow fauna patrons and stop wasting my time with threats that I could care less about. As I said before I am perfectly willing to supply whatever authorities the exact same information which can be easily verified. You are in no position to tell me otherwise and I am done listening to your threats. When you feel like conducting a mature conversation you may drop me a line. Until then, have a good evening.

C. Johnson

For the last time Chris it's "I couldn't care less". Really man, your command of the english language is pitiful, for someone with an ego like yours I would expect better. Get an education while your in prison. Then you won't have to pretend like you have one.This is like having a gunfight with an unarmed man. Remember Chris it's "I couldn't care less" this was the tip-off for me that there is no Pat/Glenn, They used the same syntax. Busted

 

[tejasranger]

Don't Fear Chris

Here is a poem that I think speaks volumes about the danger of silence. Now I will get off of my soapbox.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

- Martin Niemöller (1892-1984)

 

[SVT Snake]

I figured I would add my .02 to this thread.

I purchased 0.1 05 Het Albino from TSE in November. I agreed that I would wait for better weather for her to ship but it is now May (6 months later) and I still can't get a ship date. Their communication has been poor at best. I usually have to write them and wait 3-4 days just for them to tell me that they will contact me before they ship her. Their latest response was as follows:

Excuse the delay, we’ve been running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to get caught up and fedex is not cooperating with us much limiting us to 20 small to medium parcels a day upon pickup. We have not forgotten you and will definitely contact you prior to shipment. Thank you so very much for your patience!
BTW. Its het albino, not albino

In my e-mail I was lazy and typed Albino and not "Het" Albino and they were quick to correct me on that.
I feel I have been more than patient, 6 months is long enough. I only purchased from TSE because of their reputation which I feel that they have not lived up to. I am afraid that when they do ship I may get an 06.

 

[tejasranger]

I feel I have been more than patient, 6 months is long enough. I only purchased from TSE because of their reputation which I feel that they have not lived up to. I am afraid that when they do ship I may get an 06.

Derek,
You are doing the right thing by speaking out, everyone who has been scammed by Chris should. As far as getting an 06, I fear you will get nothing. This thread is full of agencies to contact, to report internet fraud. Take some time today and vist the sites, It's pretty painless, and it feels good to make your voice heard. Don't let Chris get away with this. Best of luck

 

[Chameleon Company]

Lucille,
I have taken issue with Chris in the past, and I know that others have as well. There are folks in this forum that Chris would not tangle with. Typically, someone who Chris did not want to tangle with would voice a challenge to him, and he would not respond to take up the challenge, and at best only change the subject. With others, he certainly knew who he could beat down, and once he saw weakness, he would exploit it.

Nick, you seem to have trouble being called to task for your words. If you say something that I or others disagree with, and which I or others feel may be poorly arrived at based on our own take on events, or in other cases seems to contradict what you have said elsewhere in this thread, then the criticism will be directed at you. The BOI is full of point-counterpoint, get used to it. As Casey said, its not a solo event. Additionally, I think I would appear rather silly coming here and blaming Casey or others for your words in your posts. If you think being disagreed with is a "personal attack", or that there was no basis in the "do as I say and not as I do" comparison, then say hello to your new friend

 

[Lucille]

Here is a poem that I think speaks volumes about the danger of silence. Now I will get off of my soapbox.

I agree with you, Robert. But there is no debating the chilling effect that takes place when some people gloried in handing out the worst kind of derogatory insults.
Fortunately times have changed as well. Due to changes made in Fauna, the sort of derogatory brutality that has occurred in the past now carries consequences; and to me that makes this site more effective as now people can come forward and speak up if they have been ripped off, with less fear of the sort of verbal reprisal that has happened before.

 

[Lucille]

Lucille,
I have taken issue with Chris in the past, and I know that others have as well.

Not to argue, but I do not think the comparison is one that fits everyone, I see you as out of the ordinary in that respect.
You and some others here seem to be fearless and outspoken, others are more reticent, and some would simply not respond in kind when Chris was on a tear.
Perhaps I should amend my post to say that there were some that would have called him out, but I believe that they would be the minority.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Your are right Lucille, and in many ways the antics of Chris could always be compared to those of a schoolyard bully. Where he could dominate, he did. IMO, he was offensive not so much because he disagreed, but in that he belittled. His emails are laughable in that he still is hoping to intimidate customers he owes, with only one outcome wished for, that being to dissuade them from pursuing other recourses that would hold him accountable.

Looking at it all, I have no problem understanding why folks waited as long as they did to come forward with some of the more egregious concerns. In hindsight, they all wish they hadn't been so trusting in the first place, and such is the rue of all that have been burned in this or other situations, myself included. I think most of us would be of the opinion that if one or more of these issues had come out sooner here, Chris would have been tarred and feathered then as well.

A few of us who "have no dog in this hunt" have been very unforgiving of Chris in this thread, and taken quite a bit of time to post such and keep the thread real active. I applaud those of you who have taken up the spear. I could claim its for the noblest of reasons, like cleaning up the hobby, or something less noble like settling a score, or even lower and say that we enjoy the feeding-frenzy and kicking a man when he is down, even if by his own hand. It doesn't really matter, as what is done is done. I have to thank all that have come here and posted of their being "taken" by Chris, as I believe that at least a part of their motivation is for others to learn from their mistakes, and to assume less in their own future transactions. An ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure.

As this thing gets kicked around a bit more, I want to throw out one question to those who had rated Chris on transactions in the past. My guess is that Chris actively solicited them, especially when membership here was free, as it was all a part of the con, creating this inflated image of trustworthiness to use as a part of the ruse. Does anyone have recollections of such in your dealings with him?

 

[Lucille]

and say that we enjoy the feeding-frenzy and kicking a man when he is down, even if by his own hand. It doesn't really matter

I would really like for this not to happen.
I do think it OK to recognize the fact that Chris really could get on a verbal tear sometimes and hurt people, if for only to point out that perhaps that is why some people waited to come forward.

But I ask that everyone try to be professional as possible in this thread because:

1) those who read it will give more credence if it is a reasoned thread with facts and posts to back up accusations, as opposed to a feeding frenzy
2) There is a danger of becoming the very thing we criticize, if we do not take the high road.
3) those of you who are outlining positive, concrete methods and facts concerning the quest for refunds are more likely to have your threads and links found and acted upon.

 

[shrap]

If businesses are forced to answer for the small problems they may not ever get to the point of the really bad stuff.....

I am sorry Nicolai, but that is just plain naive. Either people are honest, upstanding and have integrity or they don't. Now none of us are without mistakes, it is how we handle those mistakes and whether we learn from them and genuinely try not to repeat them or not is what helps define who we are as people. Chris don't take responsibility for his mistakes, does not handle them in a fair and reasonable manner and he obviously don't learn from them.

I think it is very obvious that Chris was very calculating in his ways. He made sure he did things right with the upstanding vocal people of this community and he tried to take advantage of those he thought he could get away with it to. You really think a mite infested snake would have made it into the hands of Kelli Hammock from Chris? You think Kelli would have been delayed for months on end from Chris?

I think we have all seen the ugly side of Chris for a long time (it was the Dan & Dan Mack Snow incident that clued me in about the real Chris), I just don't think anyone realized just how deep it truly really ran.

Whether Chris turns out to be one of the true "Bad guys" or makes everything right remains to be seen

Again my apologies Nick, I aint meaning to pick you apart.... but you keep saying "makes everything right". I don't care if Chris does pay everyone back what is owed..... that does NOT make everything right. Not even close. The things he has done, the things he has said, the lies, the deceit, the vile ways he has treated people, etc, etc, etc...... no, there is nothing he can do to "make things right". All he can do is give people their money back.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I concur Lucille, and at over 1100 posts, I think it safe to say that folks have conducted themselves pretty well. As for a few minor outbursts, as I said earlier, I have no problem with the viewing audience seeing the contempt that a few had for Chris, so long as it does not dominate the thread. A trip or two to the verbal woodshed has its merit. This thead has value to some when it outlines "..... concrete methods and facts concernig the quest for refunds ...." But other criticisms here have value as well, as the BOI is a learning tool for many things.

 

[SVT Snake]

I haven't followed this thread from the beginning. I read the first 20 pages. Can someone please sum up this thread?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Sammy, I couldn't agree with you more. Nick, I also believe that Sammy is posting not just to disagree with you, but also to provide a rebuttal to your views for the reader, and offer an opposing message.

Before I leave this thread for a few hours for real work, I have to take you to task again Nick. Like it or not, I believe you volunteered some time ago in this thread. In the context of these words from Sammy:

I think it is very obvious that Chris was very calculating in his ways. He made sure he did things right with the upstanding vocal people of this community and he tried to take advantage of those he thought he could get away with it to.

Earlier in the thread, you took heat for some of your positions about Chris, and you volunteered that one reason, if not the main one, was that you were his friend. Others applauded your loyalty ("a friend in need is a friend indeed") etc. Without looking up the exact posts, I believe you mentioned the basis for the friendship being that you had three good deals with him and had spoken on the phone. With all the requests by other members here for anyone who had been to Chris's facility, met him at shows or otherwise, I believe that you indicated that you had not done either of those things, or at least not volunteered that you had.

Many of us have friends that we would bite the bullet for, maybe even fall on a sword or two for. I believe that such levels of friendship usually occur after an extended period of time (years), where you've been able to judge the character of your friend in many circumstances, etc. If its a matter of a few deals and a few emails or phone calls ...... well, some of us find that a very weak reason to hitch our horse to a certain tree. Its your friendship to give, but unless there's a lot more to your relationship than you have admitted, then I would offer you up as an example of how folks can be duped, and I find nothing to commend about your "friendship" stance or the positions you have taken affirmative to Chris's character.