Top Shelf Exotics (Inquiry)

[Casey Hulse]

So you are 100% wrong when you say we stand to loose nothing. You have breeders that are legit, but now have a shadow when selling their hets.

I agree with this statement, Chris has effected everyone who has hets for sale now or will in the future. I am not talking about Clark, Nerd etc..

Oh, and just for the record, my business has exploded even in spite of the TSE het scandal.

Are you selling het ball pythons? If you are, Congratulations! If you are not, then your opinion is not applicable to this situation.

 

[gmherps]

I agree with this statement, Chris has effected everyone who has hets for sale now or will in the future. I am not talking about Clark, Nerd etc..


Are you selling het ball pythons? If you are, Congratulations! If you are not, then your opinion is not applicable to this situation.

As a matter of fact YES, I have sold some het bp's.

Jim, whiffs of politeness from you are like the so called pot of urine you speak of. Keep slinging it and some of it is bound to splash on you.

 

[SVT Snake]

If you have nothing useful to add, please move along and stop cluttering up the thread with frivolous nonsense. I seriously doubt anyone agrees with you in here.

 

[kmurphy]

Oh really, care to explain that? I have people all the time that RESPOND to my ADS ONLINE, and then CALL ME!!!! How are people not going to buy online when that's where everything is? Think about it buddy, I know you are all sorts of p.o. at Chris, but think about what you are saying.

Greg, if you don't think that a large breeder/importer, that had a seemingly A1 reputation, going down as a possible scam artist and bilking their customers out of 1000's of dollars, has any affect on the reptile trade, then you and ostriches have a lot in common.
It's entirely possible it has no effect on you. There's really no way to tell but it is safe to assume that it has an effect on many people. The little guys will get hurt the most and new comers. Our industry is ripe with people misrepresenting what they have, so unless they can get beaucoup references many people will shy away. The problem here is that, even if a buyer did their homework, and checked TSE out, they still got screwed. So now who do you trust?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Greg,
As Webslave so accurately put it, it would seem that your positions here have been joined by no one, and have had the net result of continuing the thread that you felt had become "drivel" and complained should be locked and long gone. I easily count myself among the other recent posters here who see little if any logic in your positions, but do thank you for presenting the alternative view, lest anyone doubt where people in the business such as Chris are able to get their traction. I also thank you for contributing to the goal that many of us have, and a bit ironic considering your wishes, which is to keep the thread prominent for as long as possible.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I had pretty much decided that...

...I had said all I have to say in this thread but the last few pages changed my mind. Specifically, statements such as

1.) The whole het market has been damaged

2.) The TSE fake het scam

3.) Dozens of people have been scammed with fake hets

Again I state that the original topic of this thread has been proven beyond doubt and Chris's actions were deplorable and without any possible defense. He has ended his career in this industry on that alone and that result is richly deserved.


However, at this point in time, the only place a "TSE fake het scam" actually exists is in this thread. Not one piece of actual evidence other than speculation backs up this concept. Until this transgression is proven by hatchings, if the het market has been harmed it is by the unfounded speculation in this thread, not by any actions of TSE.

Do I think it possible that fake hets were sold? Sure I do. Would I spend several hundred posts discussing more and more speculative and unfounded scenriios relating to that possibility without a shred of actual evidence? Absolutely not. The continued discussion without any evidence is going to do far more harm than good until evidence is actually available.

All I can say in closing is that if a few clutches prove out there are going to be a lot of people who have posted here feeling awfully foolish.

Just my thoughts and opinions guys. Have at it

 

[KNOBTAIL]

John, possibly you could educate me a bit on the

business of hets. Just a few questions. When they are sold do they come with any paper proof? Secondly are the documents part of the sale? What recourse if any do you have if a year later the snakes in question turn out not to be what you paid for. How do you prove that the snake in question was the actual one that was purchased by you from the seller?

Finally, is their a line of decendants that the seller can provide to show the genetic family as proof. Are their any photos of the parents that have ever been shown by Chris?

Pardon my ignorance on this subject. Snakes were not my enjoyment in this industry. But you bring up an interesting point about not a single person has come forward and that these threads are speculation about not being what they were purchased as including the offspring. Which raises my final question. How do you protect yourself or the investment?

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

business of hets. Just a few questions. When they are sold do they come with any paper proof? Secondly are the documents part of the sale? What recourse if any do you have if a year later the snakes in question turn out not to be what you paid for. How do you prove that the snake in question was the actual one that was purchased by you from the seller?

Finally, is their a line of decendants that the seller can provide to show the genetic family as proof. Are their any photos of the parents that have ever been shown by Chris?

Pardon my ignorance on this subject. Snakes were not my enjoyment in this industry. But you bring up an interesting point about not a single person has come forward and that these threads are speculation about not being what they were purchased as including the offspring. Which raises my final question. How do you protect yourself or the investment?

Jerry

Every point that is in bold above varies from seller to seller. With BP's in particular, the current standard seems to be a photographic reciept. Recourse is determined by each breeder / seller as well. The norm, again, seems to be two clutches from the female that do not produce visuals indicates a non-het animal. Again, this varies by agreement widely from seller to seller.

Your final question is the most difficult to answer. In general, you deal with people of good reputation. In the end, you are obviously depending on the rep of the seller above any paperwork.


BTW...before anyone makes some statement that i am defending Chris by my previous post, I am most emphatically not. I am far more interested in defending the industry from panic caused by speculation.

 

[Chameleon Company]

John,
I think that most, if not all of us, would agree that there is no proven TSE "fake het scam". Like you, most of us believe it both possible and likely, and perhaps the only real difference between your post and those of others has been the failure by some to use the word "alleged", which we hear so often on the news. Many times its almost comical in its use, as the evidence seems overwhelming, but there has not been a trial yet, and as such the legal advice to the networks is that all is only alleged until proven. I do not think it just idle speculation that exists only in this thread, although this thread did bring together the separate fears of many into a collective concern. It is very much in the minds of those who bought these animals from Chris, have not only spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and much time and effort, but now must worry that they have been had. It is important that all owners of hets from TSE know about this speculation, as they may find themselves with a legal claim, and while no one hopes they are fake hets, must prepare themselves in advance for possible legal action. It may only be to investigate their options now, in advance, so that they are not too far behind the curve should they find out they've been defrauded. Agreed again, it is all just speculation, or the "alleged fake het scam", but one thing that all this speculation brought out was the failure of anyone to have received anything from Chris and TSE that would rate even an ounce of being what is called "exculpatory evidence", that being evidence that would lend itself to, if not prove, that there was no fraud. This would be documented bloodlines, pictures, etc. While the final proof is in what hatches, all the evidence that has come out since this speculation began has been anything but exculpatory, with many promised pictures and documentation that never arrived, the multiple sales of the "last animal", etc. To some extent, the lack of anyone coming forward documenting that they sold Chris founding breeders, or verified hets for resale, speaks volumes as well.
We may be in complete agreement, that the only thing that needed clarification is the use of the word "alleged". Otherwise, many of us here feel that given the current evidence, to include the lack of exculpatory evidence, this speculation is not only valid, but necessary. Pro-bono

 

[High End Herps Inc]

You said it yourself John

In general, you deal with people of good reputation. In the end, you are obviously depending on the rep of the seller above any paperwork.

In your own words you are describing why circumstancial evidence is enough justifyable reason to believe that Chris sold people wc balls and normal balls as "hets". By the middle of this thread his rep was below zero. On top of this he never once defended his hets and posted/stated that they were true hets. I can't speak for anyone else in this business, but if people were posting somewhere that Hgh End Herps hets were fakes we would be there in a nano-second to state that our hets are above suspicion and for sure 100%. Chris never once popped up to make this claim or defend his hets in any way. I would be livid and adamant. After the doubt concerning his hets surfaced he stopped posting and seemed intent only in avoiding this topic and disappearing ASAP. To me this is further behavior associated with guilt.

In addition to the above behavior-related actions, from what I have read, most of the "hets" that people received were sickly, underweight, or otherwise just not healthy and robust. In my experience, captive produced animals are usually thriving and good feeders. Also, most breeders would make sure that their expensive hets were top notch and in above par shape prior to going to the customer. So instead of lame excuses that it was too cold to ship, I would have expected at least one customer to say that the delay in shipping was something closer to: "These guys aren't eating as well as I would like them to be eating. Let me get them checked out and feeding better before I ship." This I would have expected. But by the lack of such things, with sick snakes being sent in lieu of healthy ones, to me it is evidence of a man that was already unconcerned with his reputation. And this in turn directly implies that he knew what was about to happen to his business and his rep. And he likely just didn't care. He shipped the sick snakes just to buy a few extra days to put off the inevitable in hopes of making a few more sales.

So, in sumation, in contrast to our legal standard of "Innocent until proven guilty", I am assuming he is 100% guilty of selling fake hets until evidence surfaces that proves it to be otherwise.

Tawni Beauchemin

 

[Chameleon Company]

Well put Tawni. Especially from a "civil" vs. "criminal" point-of-view. While much of this has been discussed well back in the thread, there is IMO an overwhelming justification for the specualtion about Chris's hets, to include its prominent inclusion as speculation in a potentially significant legal scenario. Contrary to the apparent argument of some that the specualtion has no place here, if Chris had tangible assets that were not protected by bankruptcy (a bif "IF"), given the evidence repeated many times about Chris's "hets", each owner of hets from Chris would have grounds to seek a full refund, with damages, in a civil court, and in my view would win. It would all hinge on Chris's failure to provide promised paperwork, actions such as the multiple sales of "last one's", etc, to open the door to a civil lawsuit. Once open, Chris would have the opportunity to document his bloodlines, etc. If he could not, it would also be evidence used against him, not to mention his own lack of integrity in other non-het transactions. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not a part of a civil litigation, as was well gone over in the first 500 posts or so. It appears that Chris may not have assets worth pursuing, but that is separate from the circumstantial case that could be made against him in a civil suit, and does nothing to invalidate its discussion here.
As for "people looking foolish" if the hets prove out. Well, I hope that they prove out, but I sure as heck won't be one that think people were foolish for speculating here that they likely were fakes. Chris has shown himself to be lower than whale defecation, and questioning the integrity of anything he has been connected with is not only fair game in my book, but smart !

 

[viridisnakes]

John,

So you are saying that until the hundreds of hets Chris sold are proven we can't call him a lying thief, OR maybe you are saying even if one het proves out we will all feel foolish.

Chris/Pat/Glenn/TSE selling unlimited "last one available", with one proven case, like my own, is proof enough in my book.

In my book even if he sold only 20% fake hets, he is still a lying cheating stealing spineless weasel who hopefully will be frog marched from his "facility" (apartment) in front of his family with a nice long stay in a prison.

In my opinion this thread should stay at the top of the BOI until TSE.com is out of commision and Chris is locked up, or everyone owed money is refunded (not likely). I mean shouldn't his account issues be resolved by now. I don't know if any one fell for that. His bank account (business or personal) would have taken a court order to be frozen, so that is just one more lying from the king of liars. But are they really lies if Chris/pat/glenn/TSE believes them to be true?

Chris Rouille

 

[KNOBTAIL]

If you buy diamonds, and receive an invoice for a 3 K. and it turns out to be a fake after having it for several months, their is a remedy and it could involve civil as well as criminal. But how do you deal with a snake under similar circumstances. I dont even know how to deal with the complexities with living material in a judicial forum unless you have some savy genetic people willing to testify. It just seems to me that their is a big hole in protecting ones assests when as stated earlier, the terms of the agreement change from dealer to dealer. You would think that their would be some general rule that breeders should abide by for everyones protection.

Otherwise, you can expect a repeat performance and its bound to happen.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

John,

So you are saying that until the hundreds of hets Chris sold are proven we can't call him a lying thief, OR maybe you are saying even if one het proves out we will all feel foolish.

Absolutely not Chris. That has been proven by the original issue that began this thread.

Chris/Pat/Glenn/TSE selling unlimited "last one available", with one proven case, like my own, is proof enough in my book.

Than you have a vastly different level of proof requirement than I do. All that proves to me is that he was sleazy in his sales approach....nothing more.

In my book even if he sold only 20% fake hets, he is still a lying cheating stealing spineless weasel who hopefully will be frog marched from his "facility" (apartment) in front of his family with a nice long stay in a prison.

I agree 100%. The problem is that, at this moment, you have absolutely no proof that he sold any fake hets. Suspicions yes...proof...not a bit.

In my opinion this thread should stay at the top of the BOI until TSE.com is out of commision and Chris is locked up, or everyone owed money is refunded (not likely).

Again, I agree completely. But on the merits of the original issue....not the speculation.

Folks, i think on this one point, a lot of us are just going to have to agree to disagree.



Again, my sincerest best wishes for a monetary recovery to those who have not received their orders. I am not in any way defending TSE....just my concept of common sense.and prudent action

[/QUOTE]

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Oops...missed one question

OR maybe you are saying even if one het proves out we will all feel foolish.

No, but it would be one small piece of actual evidence that some or all of the hets were genuine

 

[WebSlave]

In my opinion, if even ONE het produces the advertised genetic results, NO ONE will have a chance to win a case in court. The defense can use "luck" as an ironclad defense, which will be sufficient to win the case. Yes, it is entirely possible to have *true* hets and YOUR luck is just so rotten that you didn't produce ANY of what you had hoped for in all of your breedings. Genetics is based on statistics and luck, and not any certain guaranteed results whatsoever.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

In my opinion, if even ONE het produces the advertised genetic results, NO ONE will have a chance to win a case in court. The defense can use "luck" as an ironclad defense, which will be sufficient to win the case. Yes, it is entirely possible to have *true* hets and YOUR luck is just so rotten that you didn't produce ANY of what you had hoped for in all of your breedings. Genetics is based on statistics and luck, and not any certain guaranteed results whatsoever.

Just for those who asked earlier. this is the genetics guarantee from the TSE website



UNMATCHED GENETICS GUARANTEE:

All 100% Heterozygous specimens are guaranteed. Our possible heterozygous specimens are ALSO guaranteed: If you acquire 5 or more possible heterozygous specimens from us we are completely confident you will prove one. So confident in fact we are willing to purchase them back at 125% their original value if you are unable to prove one after two attempts\seasons. Regardless if it was a cash sale or trade! You will not find a better guarantee than ours!

 

[Chameleon Company]

Its hard to decide whether to laugh or cry when reading that guarantee, as it just further demonstrates the ease with which people can be fooled. For instance, how crazy would a discussion have been six months ago where someone wondered whether to take a chance on Chris's hets, and said "well look, he has a good guarantee", failing to realize that if he is a fraud, the guarantee is as well. Crazy .... and I'll bet the discussion happened more than once, and it helped make a few sales. In all fairness, I think it was viewed in the light of Chris being an honest businessman, and if he made an honest mistake, he would be around to fix it.

It brings to mind the CRE guarantee, and there are many parallels. I don't have the time or desire to research it, but do any of the established heavy-hitters even bother with a guarantee, except to provide full documentation that they stand behind ? I mean more in line with this "125% buy-back" come-on type of thing. Again judging from the similarities between TSE and CRE, I think such gadgetry in a guarantee might be a red flag.

 

[KNOBTAIL]

Thats what prompted me to ask my initial questions about het guarantee's. I know the only documentation that I would consider would be some type of written lineage proof and not something that is advertised on a website. Chris was basically telling the buyer what he would do with his confidence scheme, and by that time, he was already out of business. No where does he provide any written proof with the actual sale of the snake. Unless I am reading this inccorectly, has anyone received any hets with papers?

 

[NorthamExotics]

Het Paperwork

Jerry,

Anyone who purchased 'het' ball pythons from TSE received a letter of genetic guarantee with a picture of the snake sold and the details of the genetics (but not the parentage in any way). If you want to see one, shoot me a PM and I will send you a copy.

-Jason