TW International Wyatt in Texas

[deborahbroadus]

Chuck, if you can understand it, I think that's a good thing...some of us are better at reading between the lines than others, so if you followed it, apparently my "between the lines" was more transparent than some.

Deborah, that seems a bit excessive to me but I can understand where your coming from. Think about it IBD has been out there for a while now and I can't see this new virus being as bad maybe close but not as bad and you didn't shut down because of IBD so why now??

IBD is not an "unknown" entity, I went into this with my eyes open on that front. That's why I continued to collect even with the knowledge of IBD, but my "protection" was, I didn't buy from small breeders. Now it's being rumored that "big" breeders have it too..so that closes that avenue imo until further notice.

While we are making a point of Jen's qt procedures or lack of same, imo (and I could be wrong and if I am do not bother to defend yourself...it will not appy to you thus no defense is necessary)..I do not think any of us are 100% safe, I know for myself, I can become complacent, it's a risk I prefer not to take.

My collection is dear to me, I can't even conceive (and I have lost animals before) of losing animals on the scope that Jen has! Some of these are my babies and I am very emotionally attached to them.

Deb, I understand what you are saying...but some are acting like this is some new thing that is now being hidden. In all honesty, I had heard that some breeders/dealers were experiencing big losses to a "killer RI virus" a couple years ago - and we all know I am not in the BP loop. Frankly, at this point, I wish I had been more interested...if only for the sake of knowing the details now.

Thank you Harald, at least now I can believe it's not a big conspiracy to have people start businesses, get wiped out and start again..and so on and so forth. ...seriously, except for the posts that Jen started, to be completely honest this is the very first time I have even had an inkling that this was out there. I even have that HUGE book for vets!

 

[Corey Woods]

Fortaz = Ceftazidime.

Corey

Well,
Last time I posted I was apologizing to Wyatt about how this BOI post dragged his name through the crap. I thought that my snake I bought from him was healthy and my other two were getting better. I have continued soaking them daily and giving them the Baytril and Fortaz. But I have now run out of Fortaz. And all three are displaying the RI signs again. So somebody tell me another name for Fortaz please. My local vet refilled my Baytril for me since I showed him where I got my meds from Scott Stahl. However he did not know what Fortaz was, and I am wondering if there is something else they call Fortaz in the Dog or Cat world? Any help would be appreciated I really want to get everybody healthy. Thanks Mike

 

[Scramblermike]

Answer for Critical Bill

Hey Bill,
Well the problem here is I just read about Fortaz at least how it works with humans. It says that if you appear like the stuff is gone to continue taking it until you run out. Unfortunately when the Pastel male appeared helathy again I started using his Fortaz on one of the other two snakes since it was the same body weight. It appeared to be getting better as well. However I have now run out of fortaz. I need to get enough to run the full course of Fortaz and Baytril for all three of these snakes. And I bet it will kick this stuff out. However my problem is I never had any cultures done and this is what Stahl had prescribed and I trust Dr. Stahl completely. So I thin this is the reslut of my stupidity of not running the treatements all the way through. Does this answer why I want more Fortaz? Thanks Mike

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Hey Bill,
Well the problem here is I just read about Fortaz at least how it works with humans. It says that if you appear like the stuff is gone to continue taking it until you run out. Unfortunately when the Pastel male appeared helathy again I started using his Fortaz on one of the other two snakes since it was the same body weight. It appeared to be getting better as well. However I have now run out of fortaz. I need to get enough to run the full course of Fortaz and Baytril for all three of these snakes. And I bet it will kick this stuff out. However my problem is I never had any cultures done and this is what Stahl had prescribed and I trust Dr. Stahl completely. So I thin this is the reslut of my stupidity of not running the treatements all the way through. Does this answer why I want more Fortaz? Thanks Mike

Pretty positive that general rule of antibiotics is. you use them till they are done completely, or the case can come back and hit harder as well.

Anyone correct me if i am mistaken, or am generalizing too much.

 

[Scramblermike]

Yes Mr. Tricycle

Yes,
I agree completely. This why I put as a result of my stupidity in the follow up post. Thanks for confirming my stupidity. Mike

 

[critical bill]

Hey Bill,
Well the problem here is I just read about Fortaz at least how it works with humans. It says that if you appear like the stuff is gone to continue taking it until you run out. Unfortunately when the Pastel male appeared helathy again I started using his Fortaz on one of the other two snakes since it was the same body weight. It appeared to be getting better as well. However I have now run out of fortaz. I need to get enough to run the full course of Fortaz and Baytril for all three of these snakes. And I bet it will kick this stuff out. However my problem is I never had any cultures done and this is what Stahl had prescribed and I trust Dr. Stahl completely. So I thin this is the reslut of my stupidity of not running the treatements all the way through. Does this answer why I want more Fortaz? Thanks Mike

Yes it does and thank you for responding Mike. I just misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you had already treated all three for the duration that was prescribed and they were all again showing RI symptoms.

Good Luck with getting them well.

 

[critical bill]

Yes,
I agree completely. This why I put as a result of my stupidity in the follow up post. Thanks for confirming my stupidity. Mike

Mr. Tricycle?

How many guys do you know with the first name Alicia?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

Mr. Tricycle?

How many guys do you know with the first name Alicia?

LOL ive been a big ole meanie lately, and my last post wasnt intended that way, so i figured id let it slide. This time. ^_- thanks chuck chuck.

 

[critical bill]

LOL ive been a big ole meanie lately, and my last post wasnt intended that way, so i figured id let it slide. This time. ^_- thanks chuck chuck.

LOL...anytime baby.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Let me clear my record before I leave -

Jen - I truely am sorry that you've lost your animals - if it is in fact what has the virus that the others had - you'll likely end up losing or culling the entire collection - no one should have to go through that and my heart does go out to you. That being said - I do not apologize for my inquiry - I do feel that you have been less than honest about a lot of things - for whatever reason - your stories just don't jell - but I'm done trying to find out the facts from this thread - I've gotten what I need elsewhere. I wish you strength and the best of luck with what you have to go through.


For everyone else - Since I was unable to get any real information from Jen - I decided the better way to approach finding out about this thing would be to ask people that would know. The information was fairly consistent but as I said all hearsay. As I've mentioned a few times I still have nothing tangible - but since you are all so insistent on hearing my hearsay here it is:

No body really knows what this is or where it came from - hell they aren't even sure if all the incidents are related and they are only talking about in small circles. There are theories ranging from the virus being imported to it possibly being environmental. If anyone has any real solid evidence they aren't talking. I've gotten the impression that very few really care to delve further into this - not sure care is the right word but it does appear that sweeping it under the rug is the general consensus.

It has been in several collections - with the most recent occurrences being primarily back east.

This isn't new - it's been here at least a few years if not quite a while - again this is based on people theories involving collection losses.

This is not a Ball Python only thing.


As you can see I'm not all hiding valuable information - like you all seem to think - and all this hearsay that's I've received within the last couple of days. Feel free to discount all of it.

At this point - I have provided my vet with Dr. Gordons contact information in the hopes that Dr. Gordon will extend a professional courtesy and provide what has been found thus far. That was three days ago and we haven't heard back from him. I am also fortunate to have a microbiologist in the family that may be willing to put some time into this if need be - but I need to get some real info on the virus before I can proceed in that direction. If I get some info on the virus I will post it on Kingsnake.

In the meantime you may want to remember:

"There is no such thing as a trusted source".

You can shoot the messengers - if you think that there is going to be any breeder that is going to publicly admit to this issue - you are either stupid, naive or new here.

Could you be just a little more obscure?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

What would have helped the BP trade (and any other affected boids/reptiles) is/was transparency and honesty. The way this should have been handled was to let buyers know incidents besides IBD can happen, where it orginates, symptoms and how to help the boids and/or prevent the spread of this virus (other than qt).

This is why I'm trying to put it out there and why my vet is trying to get as deep as he can with it. I don't care if it makes people wary of buying from me, I do not want to see anyone else go through this blindly like I had to and lose their animals. That is completely regardless of this issue with Wyatt -- if it had come out of thin air I would be putting this out there too.

Let me just remind you all about the email that I was sent of the 29th of September 2007.

Wyatt, what does that e-mail have to do with anything? It was sent on the 29th, one day after she arrived, before she showed her symptoms. We already have established that multiple times -- that e-mail does nothing. Yes, she ate 2 rats shortly before showing symptoms -- so did 3 out of the other 5 dead snakes. That doesn't mean squat.

Well,
Last time I posted I was apologizing to Wyatt about how this BOI post dragged his name through the crap. I thought that my snake I bought from him was healthy and my other two were getting better. I have continued soaking them daily and giving them the Baytril and Fortaz. But I have now run out of Fortaz. And all three are displaying the RI signs again. So somebody tell me another name for Fortaz please. My local vet refilled my Baytril for me since I showed him where I got my meds from Scott Stahl. However he did not know what Fortaz was, and I am wondering if there is something else they call Fortaz in the Dog or Cat world? Any help would be appreciated I really want to get everybody healthy. Thanks Mike

Mike, first thing, pull them away from the rest of your snakes -- far, far away -- as far away as you can, in a secluded room with closed tubs with lids. Then, PLEASE bring them to your vet and see if they are able to draw fluid from their chest area around their lungs (he may not as it is very tricky considering the lack of space, but he should try if he can). Have him do a culture on the fluid to determine if it is bacterial or viral, and determine what may or may not kill it. The generic name for Fortaz is Ceftazidime -- there are two name brands -- Fortaz and Tazicef. I tried Fortaz the first time with no luck -- we are now doing a higher dose and the other brand (Tazicef) to help my last remaining sick snake beat the secondary bacterial infection, with hopes that it will give her more strength to beat the virus (fighting one infection vs. two). So far, she is sounding better and hanging in there -- she got her second dose tonight. Doing a culture from anything you get inside the throat or mouth will not do anything if you have the same thing my animals have -- I had that done and there was not enough fluid produced inside the lungs/throat to get a proper sample for culture, and the amount that was looked at on a slide revealed no signs of anything. The necropsy is what revealed that the fluid was outside the lungs, not in. I am hoping you do NOT have the same infection.

I appreciate all the support here, and appreciate those that have played devil's advocate and helped me realize a few things, learn a few lessons, and clarify things. As of right now, I have put everything out here that I have. Until I hear something from Dr. Gordon about the last 3 dead females, there is nothing new that can be said. I'm tired of rehashing things that have already been gone over 10 times. I really need to take a break from this thread -- I can't handle the stress of this added to everything else I have going on -- it is all I think about. On the way to work, at work, on the way home from work, before I go to bed, and now I'm even having dreams where I wake up to find the rest of my collection upside down and dead in their tubs. This situation is eating me alive -- I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating, I'm obsessively checking my animals every half hour. Yes, I know that is of no relevance to any of you, has nothing to do with this case, and is not your concern, but I need to let this be for now. If something comes back that still pertains to this having to do with the het clown, I will post it here. If any of you still doubt the validity of that voicemail (which blows my mind in the first place), you are more than welcome to call the clinic and confirm with Dr. Gordon or his technician Kari that it was indeed him that left the voicemail. Mike, if you get any news or anything changes with your sick snakes, PLEASE e-mail me -- if it leans toward being the same infection based on your vet's tests/analysis, then I would want your vet to contact mine so he can explain all what we've done so far and where we're at. They can work together and we can hopefully save your animals.

 

[HRoss]

jen,
do you know the ratios of both antibiotics per kilo of animal weight? i know you are going by a vet, but simply put most vets are very light on dosage required to stop even the simplest bacterial ri's. they typically go by the dosage guides for other types of animals with much faster metabolic rates for safety (or to relieve themselves of responsibility)

 

[Jim O]

jen,
do you know the ratios of both antibiotics per kilo of animal weight? i know you are going by a vet, but simply put most vets are very light on dosage required to stop even the simplest bacterial ri's. they typically go by the dosage guides for other types of animals with much faster metabolic rates for safety (or to relieve themselves of responsibility)

Howard,

I don't mean to step on your veterinary knowledge and credentials, or to burst your bubble, but animals with "faster metabolic rates" clear antibiotics and other medications faster, be it hepatic, renal, or gut clearance. Hence if one is to take into account "metabolic rate" reptiles would need either lower doses or, more likely, longer intervals between doses (or both) to account for their "slower metabolic rates".

 

[HRoss]

i take all info given to me as something to learn from. i use 3 day intervals when using high dosage baytrill cut with iv saline. i used this method from one of the big guys who feels the standard 5-10 mg per kilo is not enough to work in balls with resp infections. granted i have only had resp infections for the most part with big females coming off of breeding season.
i hold out on using fortaz in combo with baytrill, unless it is something fast hitting and aggressive. those two broad spectrum antiobiotics seem to work very well together in hitting most bacterial based resp infections without cultures. dr stahl through another breeders problem is the one that led me to the path of both baytrill and fortaz combined without a culture

 

[Jim O]

Howard, most of your post is gibberish, but I am curious as to how you get Fortaz without a prescription. BTW, I was not questioning your methods or your dosages, merely I was pointing out that your reasoning was flawed about "metabolic rates". You show a clear lack of understanding about what that might mean, so let me give you an example. Say that a medicine is toxic to the kidneys. If an organism clears it quickly then there is less time for kidney damage. If an organism clears it slowly, the drug is around longer and there is more time for kidney damage to occur. Snakes and other reptiles with slow metabolisms clear antibiotics more slowly. Do you understand how that works now?

 

[HRoss]

i also wanted to reply to the collateral damage this thread is doing. yes i did a trade with wyatt based upon the fact that i had previous positive deals with him. and to me if you treat me right that is what makes me come back as a customer. i dont go digging on someone that i have worked with in a positive way in the past. perhaps that is a lesson learned, but i still think the probability of wyatt having the plague is baseless.

now i had aquired a few very high end animals from wyatt that would match my projects (roughly 10 days apart from jens). well i over purchased animals to complement those projects. doing so i had set up a breeding loan with wyatts male adult pastel orange ghost. now, i had to write a very detailed email to my freind to let him know of the implications beign tossed around here, and the history of the animal i was going to loan him so he can make his own deciscion. in effect some of the blind hatred and simple lack of knowlege/ evidence being tossed around has potentially cost me multiple tens of thousands of dollars. yet i could not just give him the snake and risk his collection.

i will state that now after almost 3 months the animals i received are in perfect health visually.
howard
i know wes has said it is meaningless that my animals came from the same collection as one of jens sick animals, but i am sorry i just have to disagree.

 

[HRoss]

i am not picking an argument on the jibberish comment. simpy put where i get my antiobiotics is of no ones concern. there might very well be some flawed information on how i use my meds when needed from an academic standpoint. but i did not just shoot in the dark to get these dosages. results are what matter to me. plain and simple. working with animals with huge dollars at stake i go to the people i have been purchasing high end morphs from for the past seven years. they have real world experience and i can count more than one nightmare following a vets advice.
and yes i do stay in contact with a few vets an discuss the problems with batrill in particular, but simply put it produces results.

i do not know you jim, as far as i know you could be a great person, but i have to ask do you deal with these things on a daily basis. i am never afraid to learn from anyone

 

[jscrick]

Hello,
Anybody ever dealt with TWInternational? Not sure If I posted this the way the moderators wanted it? Sorry If it is not in the correct format. Just trying to find some info. Thanks ahead of time.

I would not do business with Damien Wyatt. I left a female het for albino boa with him on breeding loan back in 2001. Never saw any babies. Never got my snake back. Doesn't return my inquires. Said she threw slugs. Refused to send me any photos. Haven't heard from him since.
Those of you that are satisfied, that's due in part from the unwitting generosity of fools like me I'm sure, and from two different previous partners that he's used and ridden their good names into the ground.

 

[Wyatt]

John,
You are a psycho and have no clue as to what you are saying. I have never had any other partner other than Eric? The rest of that stuff is the most insane thing I have ever heard..

Wyatt

 

[Jim O]

simpy put where i get my antiobiotics is of no ones concern.

So you obtain them illegally, else you would not have a problem disclosing.

i do not know you jim, as far as i know you could be a great person, but i have to ask do you deal with these things on a daily basis. i am never afraid to learn from anyone.

LOL. Funny you should ask that, because of the two of us I'll wager my monthly incomes that am the only one ever licensed to prescribe antibiotics and did so on a daily basis for many years prior to my retirement. Any other foot in mouth questions howie?