TW International Wyatt in Texas

[HRoss]

and also soaking for hydratrion is good and all and probably keeping her alive, but it does not provide constant moisture to the lungs. i would ask a doctor about giving her antibiotics through a modified nebulizer chamber

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Hmmmmm...now that would be something she could use. Have an idea on how to create one for a snake?

 

[HRoss]

i will chat with someone more familiar with the neb chambers and get back to you by email once i find him. i remeber them being really simple
tuperware with the flow of misted antibiotics pumping in. now you are talking a lot of meds to do it this way, but you are getting fleeced already with the amount of shots the experts have supplied

 

[KelliH]

Are there any viruses (not IBD because she has no neuro or other weird problems) that can cause this? Is it always bacterial?

From what I understand, there is a relatively new virus (I first heard of it a couple of years ago) that affects ball pythons and has been causing deaths in some collections. It is viral, and extremely hard to get rid of once they have it. The symptoms are very similar to that of an upper respiratory infection, however, the snake does not get better with treatment for that, or may initially seem better, but then becomes sick again within a few days. There is not much known about this because, as you can imagine, no one wants to be the one to admit they have this highly infectious virus in their collections.

Jen, I am going to find out from a friend of mine what this virus is called and what tests need to be run to determine if the virus is causing the sickness. I am not trying to freak you out or anything, but thought I should make you aware, and let you know. I am also not accusing Wyatt of harboring this virus, I just thought it was something to add here. It's really sad that none of the ball python breeders will talk about it, and I know more that one that have had many, many balls in their collection die, and one that lost 90% of his collection and was forced by this to "get out of balls".

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Kelly -- It freaks me out, but I want to know, because it is throwing me for a loop that nothing is working for her. So thank you for offering that info and please do get ahold of me when you find out more. I hope to God that isn't the case.

 

[Griz]

Jen, for what it is worth, I inherited some caging from a friend that was set up as a nebulizer treatment cage. Long story short, it's a standard cage that has a small hole in the side whereby you simply insert the tube of the nebulizer into the cage itself. While I have never had a need to use it, he used it for everything including simple RI's! He said that by breathing in the medication, the symptoms and recovery times were drastically cut over administering it via injections or orally.

You can go to your local online craigslist or freecycle and request one for free as you would not believe how many people have these laying around from one time usages. I have 4 of them in my house. 3 for the animals and 1 for my family.

Griz

 

[hhmoore]

Jen, perhaps I missed this in all the mess, but was a tracheal wash performed & a culture/sensitivity done? It really makes no sense to continue random antibiotic therapy without figuring out what you are treating.

 

[Keith Northrop]

Wow!
When I started this thread I was just trying to get some information. Then I got a bunch of bad reviews of his customer service. Made me a little nervous since I had made the deal on a weekend and thought it would be shipped on a Monday for a tuesday arrival. Got shipped on a tuesday evening and arrived on a thursday afternoon. Arrived alive and I thought in good health. Well I continued to check this thread and discovered Jen had a snake with a URI. So I continued to watch my new snake. He appeared to have a URI when I saw him blowing bubbles and heard him wheezing. Took him to Dr. Stahl and he told me that these things don't occur because of shipping that he was sick when he left Texas. After $195 at the vet and $46 to get up there and back things seem to be going well. I feel bad because I forgot to mention to Jen that Dr. Stahl had told me to soak him daily and to put the salve on his eye afterwards. The eye thing is just for my snake since his right eye seemed to have something funky going on with it. Well I have been putting the eye stuff on twice daily and so far he has kept the eye. I have given him shots twice now and he appears to be getting better. I have yet to try and feed him. But he does not appear to be losing any weight. I have posted since Wyatt seems to think I am alright with things. This is far from the truth. The snake looks great this is what sold him to me but his health being well below average would keep my from ever buying anything from TW International again. I am glad some people have had good experiences. But something kind of got to me at the vets office. When Scott said, "why would somebody sell and adult animal like this?" Then I thought why would somebody sell something that should be able to breed that is of this appearence. I just hope I can get him well without anymore vet bills. And I hope you have good luck as well Jen! I will check back sorry I have been too busy to post up here. I run my own construction business and it supports my stupid reptile hobby. Later Mike

Mike..... bad choice of words "stupid reptile hobby"???

Jen.......Is this snake Wild Caught? Did you ever get the fecal? With all the meds already taken ,was Wormer used? Would any of the meds taken kill worms?
I say jump start with a appetite stimulator(Exoterra) for a better feeding response.... It has worked on 6 month holdouts(WC Balls) several times, and
is less tramatic for the snake than force feeding.

Good Luck

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Keith, she is a CBB het clown female produced from his clown male. I have pics of her parents.

No culture done, but the 2nd vet did look at what little mucous he could get on a slide -- didn't see anything. Yet she's gurgling?

 

[hhmoore]

For all you know, you are medicating with heavy duty antibiotics for nothing...the causative agent may not even be bacterial. (one example of this would be a parasitic infection - ie lungworm - which wouldn't respond to ABX therapy.) Unfortunately, for best results, it is recommended that there be no antibiotic therapy for at least 2 weeks before doing a wash for C&S, so you might as well finish this course and hope for the best. (remember, both Amikacin and Fortaz are nephrotoxic - though from what I have read, the combination isn't worse than either drug administered separately - so you should be taking measures to ensure hydration, be it forced soaking, tubing fluids, or IV). If it doesn't respond, and you plan to continue attempting treatment, the logical step is to figure out what you up against and how to fight it. Those answers don't necessarily mean you will win the battle (speaking from painful experience), but at least you know you are doing more than shooting blind.

Best of luck with the snake.

 

[ravensgait]

Jen,, I took in a Chondro last winter that had not been eating ETC ETC to see if I could get her going again. After having her a few weeks I noticed she was gurgling and began treating her for an RI . She seemed to get over it but still refused to eat (this was an older CBB animal) A few weeks to a month later she showed symptoms of an RI again so once more I treated her and it seemed to clear up.

To make a long story shorter she once again came down with what looked like an RI and we did a culture that didn't show anything so an X-ray was done that showed a small tumor in her lung that was the likely reason for the RI symptoms. This all to place over 6 or 8 months, I never could get her to feed and eventually had to put her down.

Just thought I'd mention this as there are other things that can cause the symptoms your seeing.. Randy

 

[pfan151]

As Harald said, you REALLY need to get a culture done. It will tell you exactly what antibiotic will be effective.

 

[Dr Owens]

As Harald said, you REALLY need to get a culture done. It will tell you exactly what antibiotic will be effective.

For the sake of accuracy...
The culture (assuming that you're able to obtain a good sample) should tell you what kind of bacteria you're dealing with. The sensitivity will tell you what antibiotics will be most effective.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Well, apparently the RI had spread before I had gotten a better quarantine set up in my bedroom. I now have 2 other sick snakes with respiratory illness -- one being my TSK adult female het g-stripe and the other being my 3300g female -- and one dead one (my 3100g female). I had been trying to stay out of my snake room except for checking water, because of how much I have to touch and deal with the sick het clown daily -- so I missed these 3 developing symptoms. Everyone had been established animals in my collection, they've been healthy, feeding, and breeding, so I thought they would all be OK until I could get this all figured out and could spend more time in there. The dead one is currently at my reptile vet and was supposed to have had a complete necropsy done this afternoon after I dropped her off before work, as well as a culture on all lung fluids and mucous sent out to the lab at the UW vet school. I'm waiting on a phone call from them tomorrow with the results and where to go from here. Dr. Gordon had already spoken with Dr. Michaels on the phone last week (Scott Michaels -- Serpent City down in Illinois who had recommended the Fortaz/Amikacin), and has been conferring with the other professors at the UW on causes/treatments. He's on vacation until Thursday from the holiday, but the other exotics vet, Dr. Lukas, did the necro today. Hopefully I will find out more soon.

 

[Cat_72]

Aw damn, Jen. I'm really sorry....that just plain sucks.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for ya that you can get this licked....if anyone could do it from sheer will, it'd be you.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

This year was supposed to be my big year with the projects I was so excited about doing -- the het clown was like the final puzzle piece to bring it all together...instead she became the weak link that is bringing the entire thing down. I'm watching it crumble and fall apart all around me.

 

[hhmoore]

I'm sorry to hear that, Jen...I'll keep my fingers crossed that the rest of your stuff stays healthy. Hopefully the necropsy, and followup studies will yield some useful information

 

[Dogboa]

Hmmmmm...now that would be something she could use. Have an idea on how to create one for a snake?

Hey Jen,
I've been using nebulizer treatments for emeralds neos when necessary. I use a standard nebulizer with a sterilite chamber. The bowl holds 10 ccs. I use 1cc of med (what ever dosage the vet recommends), 1 cc of mucomyst and the rest is sterile water (5% saline). PM me if you want more detail.

Craig

 

[Cat_72]

How's things going, Jen?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

I haven't gotten a call back from Kari (tech) or Dr. Gordon yet. Dr. Lukas called me early the next morning after I had dropped off the dead female the previous afternoon to let me know they were doing the necro that morning before their scheduled spay/neuter surgeries and to ask for all the background info I could give her. I explained how she was since I had gotten her, then the situation over the past 2 months, and she flat out told me that there is no way that the het clown was healthy before she was shipped -- for it to hit this fast and this hard, she was already well infected and the cold shipping delay was just the catalyst. I did call earlier today and the receptionist took a message for them to get back to me but I never heard from them. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'm going to bring the big girl out there to get a sample from her lungs too and check on what info they got from the necropsy and if they were able to get a proper culture from the dead female's lungs. I had had to refrigerate her overnight until I could bring her in, so I hope it didn't kill off everything and prevent any results. I want paperwork versions of anything and everything they tell me because Wyatt needs to understand and have proof of what I am going through.

So far, the other sick ones are holding steady and no one else is showing symptoms. I stopped all antibiotics after the female died because we don't know what we're treating and I want them to be clear if we have to get on something new right away. They are all holding their own with me hydrating and tube feeding them, and while the 2 hets are not getting any worse, the big 3300g female is REALLY horrible and trying to keep her head up against the tub to be able to breathe -- thus the reason I am bringing her in tomorrow. I'm hoping they could maybe clear her out a bit to help her along.

This is the biggest mess I have ever had to deal with within my collection -- I have never even so much as had one single mite in my collection, they have always been 100% healthy, clean, feeding, whole sheds, basically perfect. Now once it hits the fan, it all goes to hell. I'm exhausted, worried, stressed out -- and terrified that my old-timers that I have had since the beginning are going to come down with it. I have only been doing this since 2004, my collection is still small and very close to my heart...with many of the animals in it being very important to me -- not because of monetary value but because of sentimental and emotional worth. I worry about Leilani and Maggie (Cat, your albino's sister) that I have raised up from tiny, itty bitty babies. I worry about Angel, who started out as a horribly abused and neglected rescue that almost died, and is now one of my prettiest and best breeders. If I lose Spoon or Lucky, the 2 I actually love and cherish as true pets and members of my family -- I am done. I held them both tonight and I just cried because I'm so scared that they are next. I moved them out and away from everyone else, but I don't know if they got it back in the beginning like these new sick ones did. Sorry for venting, this is just a really big deal right now. I feel like I am so angry at Wyatt but until I physically have proof in my hand from my vet that this is his fault, I won't fully express it or demand anything from him. Right now my focus is on my animals and keeping them alive.