TW International Wyatt in Texas

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Jen -

Just to weed out some possibilities ...

1. The WC girl that died - was it definitely and RI and was she necropsied - what were the results?

2. Is it safe to assume that the new animals you recently got were quarantined in the same rack as those WCs? How many of your animals since the WCs have been safely quarantined in that racks?

3. When did you start dropping temps for breeding?

4. Can you have the labs that have been working with this virus test it to see how long it will remain viable on a standard surface?

No necropsy. I did not have a reptile vet whatsoever back then to do one, and her signs were pretty obvious based on everything I have read about routine RI's. Wheezing, gurgling, open-mouthed breathing, then at the end breathing out green goo (infection) and subsequently dying. Because she was the only one, and because she was a WC and had arrived in that condition, I chalked it up to her being housed in crappy conditions between Africa and here and developing a bad bacterial RI.

Actually no, they were not in the same rack. Back when I recieved the WC's, I had a white melamine rack that I had made myself with my dad when I moved back up here. I destroyed it a few months ago when I was able to replace it with a new AP rack. I didn't even keep the tub she had been housed in, I trash any tubs that have something die in them. Did the same for Dizzy's tub and Lola's tub. Regardless, I sanitize everything with Novalsan, right down to feeding tongs. Because that is a labeled a virucide and bactericide, I would think it would have killed any trace amounts of anything that could have been left from that female.

I do not cycle or lower temps for breeding. My animals base their season on the lighting change here in Wisconsin. The room temp may drop 2-3 degrees in winter, but the vents are open in the room to allow my household heat to come in, so not by much. My heat tape remains the same. It worked great last year, so I didn't change my recipe.

Testing the virus would depend on if the lab kept the samples or discarded them after doing the cultures and biopsy. I would need to call Dr. Gordon, and he would have to call the lab. If it's going to cost me another $500, I'm sorry, I can't do it. I don't have that kind of money, not with Christmas coming up and the already high vet bills I have had to pay. If it's more affordable, then by all means I would like to see it done. This isn't just about me here -- I don't want ANYONE ELSE dealing with this and if they do, I want information available to them.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Jen had told me about the snake that was sick even before she got my het. Now finding the post in TSK forums and the time line from all of that sick Dizzy stuff and her going through the Tylan regimen and then buying Baytril on Oct 2 just confirms what I said at first. Your right, I like how my snake got hers sick and killed it in one day but yet mine fed fine and did not show S/S for several days to weeks.

Wyatt, can you read??? Dizzy was not sick before your het got here. She got sick a day after. Go re-read my TSK posts for the dates since those seem to be so important to you. Tylan was given for 3 days, she got worse, so I started Baytril on the advice of my mammal vet. Hence the vet receipt. Where are you getting that she died in one day? She died over a week later. Your het developed symptoms on the 4th day she was here...so where are you getting "weeks"? This goes along with you blaming my CH animals that I have had for a LONG time...you are pulling things out of thin air (or your own delusional reality, not sure).

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Jen,

Regrettably and in biological terms it doesn't work that way. Depending on her build-up immunity and thus the resistance to infection a given snake can be infected before but show the symptoms later than a recent arrival, particulalry if we are talking about 4-5 days time span. By the same token contracting a URI in 24-h by a healthy animal that has been in "relatively" close contact with an infected animal is also unlikely; it will take more time. While you can't rule out that the problem came from Wyatt's animal you can't be absolutely certain that it did either. Sorry the Tylan did not work for you this time.

Regards

OK, let's say Dizzy had the virus and it had been dormant. Yet she had been with me since July, passed quarantine, and moved into my collection. Yet none of my other animals contracted anything from her. Now the het shows up, Dizzy all of a sudden gets sick, then the het gets sick, then Dizzy dies, then 3 more snakes get sick, and one of those dies. Why didn't they get sick before the het arrived since Dizzy had been their next-door neighbor for so long?

Jen -

I was really trying to figure a time line on the arrival of the animals and the illness - so I went back to check some of your posts to see about some of this stuff - and on the TSK forum you stated after Dizzy died:

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:56 pm
I'm really not happy about it. I was contacted by a guy that bought another female from the same kid I bought Dizzy from, and his girl developed an RI out of nowhere and died too. I find it odd...


Am I missing something here?

I'm trying to help you out girl - but it's not adding up??

Yes, some kid e-mailed me about that. But he never had any necropsy done, never took it to the vet or had any labs/cultures/slides done, so I got nothing from him other than a "yeah, my snake died too" e-mail. I have another snake I bought with Dizzy from that seller and she is just fine -- still is. So why would I find any link between Dizzy and that kid's snake? Regardless, as I mentioned above, if Dizzy was the carrier, why did all of this explode AFTER the het arrived and not before, when Dizzy was sharing space right next door to my other animals for quite a bit of time prior?

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Cooling for breeding can turn a mild unnoticed RI (or any illness for that matter) into a life threatening case.

I don't cool my animals whatsoever for breeding.

Jen I hate to say it but like a recent thread here I think you jumped the gun. You should have gotten test done that backed you up as to what Most Likely caused this illness.

What tests could those be? I had a lung tissue biopsy sent out, and 9 samples of the fluid sent out for cultures to determine WHAT it was and WHAT could possibly kill it. That info is in the pathology reports that are in my file at my vet's office, and I have posted it here. As previously mentioned, they stayed open very late for me to come in there and talk to them, and in my hurry to get out the door with the liquid diet and the medication, I forgot to remind him to make copies of the necropsy analysis and pathology report. I will get that tomorrow if possible (I have to work), otherwise Tuesday when I am off.

Do me a favor and answer me this-- can you honestly say that you are 100% certain that this problem came from Damion??

In my own opinion (which everyone knows are like a-holes), yes. It spread further than it should have most likely due to my inability to properly quaratine, and I accept that. The snakes that are now sick and have died were with me for MONTHS prior to the het showing up. They had passed my crappy quarantine and had joined my collection. If they were carrying the virus, why wouldn't my other snakes have gotten sick far earlier? Why did it all happen AFTER the het clown arrived? To me, that makes absolutely no sense. But because I'm a nobody and a noob, my thoughts mean squat. I get that.

I'm going to put this out there. I have not yet once asked for a single thing in compensation from Wyatt. Not once. I have said that as far as my vet and I are concerned, it is his fault. But I haven't asked for anything from him, not money, not animals, not anything other than info. He e-mails me, blathers on and on about how my continued posting on the BOI distracts him and makes him not want to compensate me, which he had been originally thinking of sending me one of his baby clowns, but wouldn't considering doing anything until I stopped posting here. So I agreed, and not 24 hours later he blows up here, plastering my other forum posts (which only reiterate what I have already stated). Guess what Wyatt -- you look like a complete fool. You're two-faced, you're a liar, and you twist things around to make up your own screwed up reality (like I have a collection of WC animals, my established healthy/feeding/growing CH animals from April 2006 infected my collection, the fact that I live in a fire station caused all of this, etc). I don't want a single damn thing from you, especially not another animal which risks being also infected and croaking on me or bringing in something else nasty. I'm taking my losses, I'm caring for my animals that are still alive because I love them, and as far as I'm concerned I am completely done with you. I hope no one else suffers the way I have -- watching my animals die in front of my eyes and having to carry their lifeless bodies into my vet right before going to work so he can cut them apart to find out why. Maybe your collection is a stock of inventory to you, but they are NOT that to me.

 

[hhmoore]

OK, let's say Dizzy had the virus and it had been dormant. Yet she had been with me since July, passed quarantine, and moved into my collection. Yet none of my other animals contracted anything from her. Now the het shows up, Dizzy all of a sudden gets sick, then the het gets sick, then Dizzy dies, then 3 more snakes get sick, and one of those dies. Why didn't they get sick before the het arrived since Dizzy had been their next-door neighbor for so long?

While I can't respond to why she showed no symptoms for such an extended time (too many unknowns), the simple explanation for why nothing else got sick -ASSuming it did originate with her, just for the sake of explanation - is that the virus wasn't shedding. If the virus isn't shedding, it is staying within the host; therefore, it isn't being spread.
I will say that this idea seems more feasible than an established animal showing symptoms the day after another animal arrives, when that other animal appears healthy until several days later. The timeline just doesn't make sense to me...but I am not a vet (nor do I know what virus is involved, or the particular immunological status of the various snakes).

 

[rabernet]

I've been following this post, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around Dizzy developing and showing symptoms of an RI within 24 hours of the addition of a new animal.

And is the het g-stripe that you say also has the virus and is doing so poorly, the same one as the one mentioned here on Nov 30th?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1436292,1436912

I'm doing a breeding loan this year with genetic stripes. I have the adult het female, and a buddy of mine on a forum that I have known for 3 years sent me his visual g-stripe male. The terms we agreed on were that if only one visual g-stripe hatches, I get it, and he will get the remaining hets (plus some extra hets from the g-stripe x normal clutches we're doing) to equal the value of the g-stripe. If there are 2 visuals, we both get one. If there are 3, I get 2, he gets one plus the hets to equal it out, and so on and so forth. If there are no visuals, then we split up the hets. The reasoning for this is that he already has the visual male, but I need one, plus I am doing all the work of breeding them, incubating the eggs, and feeding his male while he is here. In addition, if I end up with the one visual baby (or more visual babies than he does if there are 3), then I am sending him some spiders and/or mojaves from my own personal breedings (and/or het clowns) in order to even out the deal because he doesn't have those morphs yet. On his end, he is breeding his cinny male, which I don't have any of, so we will be trading up quite a few babies once all is said and done. In the end, it works great for both of us.

I personally don't want to produce possible hets, and want better odds of visuals, so I'm only doing visual x het (and visual x normal breedings for 100% hets). That's why I wanted to do the breeding loan. He was going to send his clown male as well to go with my adult het clown female, but I ended up being able to buy my own clown at Tinley time.

I think breeding loans are great as long as the terms are laid out in writing before any animals change hands, you trust the person well to hold up their end of the deal and care for your animal as you would, and both parties are happy with the outcomes. There needs to be a bit of flexibility as well.

As for your albinos, I would do a breeder loan with someone who has a clown, g-stripe, pied, or some other high-end visual recessive to make double hets. My albino girl will be big enough later this season for me to put her with my clown -- now THAT is a project I'm stoked to get working on.

Good luck no matter what you choose!

And Tinley was in October? And the clown is already breeding your females (or at least one of them from a link you provided to a TSK thread and you say that she's also failing now)?

I don't know either party in this dispute, but I am curious what your QT procedures are Jen? I understand that you have one or two rooms, but how long do you quarantine your animals in general?

 

[rabernet]

I forgot to add that I'm keeping my room at 80 degrees right now because the het clown and the other 2 sick females are in there and they need to be kept entirely warm if they're going to get through this.

And since Wyatt likes links to my posts over at TSK, here's one about the big female that is now basically dying:

http://ballpython.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5007

She was doing fantastic and breeding like a champ on November 13th -- now she's hardly moving and just laying in her tub wheezing.

So, the clown was purchased in Tinley? And was breeding at least by November 8th. Since your clown has been exposed to this virus via the sick female, how's he doing?

 

[HRoss]

can i just say one thing about virosan/ nolvosan. a lot of people take it for what the manufacture says. my parents raised parrots and were always looking for a substitute for bleach because of its harmful fumes.

now i raise a yellow nape amazon, which i have grown very fond of. if you do deep research into the parrot/ exotic bird world you will come up with this from breeders.
virosan/ nolovsan have the ability to control fungi and bacteria fairly well, but have little to no effect on virus strains other than maybe brief death with no long term virus control. it is something that anyone who uses it might want to think about or at least do some research with exotic birds on the subject.
i use the stuff for minor cleaning, because bacteria and molds are my major problems with the constant changes from hot to cold and dry to wet here. but to really clean it takes clorine.

 

[hhmoore]

can i just say one thing about virosan/ nolvosan. a lot of people take it for what the manufacture says. my parents raised parrots and were always looking for a substitute for bleach because of its harmful fumes.

now i raise a yellow nape amazon, which i have grown very fond of. if you do deep research into the parrot/ exotic bird world you will come up with this from breeders.
virosan/ nolovsan have the ability to control fungi and bacteria fairly well, but have little to no effect on virus strains other than maybe brief death with no long term virus control. it is something that anyone who uses it might want to think about or at least do some research with exotic birds on the subject.
i use the stuff for minor cleaning, because bacteria and molds are my major problems with the constant changes from hot to cold and dry to wet here. but to really clean it takes clorine.

Not to take this too far off track, but virosan and nolvosan are not exactly the same product (at least according to the labels). They are different salts of Chorhexidine: virosan is Chlorhexidine gluconate, Nolvosan is Chlorhexidine diacetate. What does that mean to us? That depends on what our goals are. While I have seen C gluconate classified as an antiseptic, and C diacetate as a disinfectant, there seems to be a lot of inconsistency regarding that information...perhaps dilution levels are a factor. From the various "kill studies" I have seen, C diacetate seems to be a somewhat better virucide; but dilution, pathogen density/volume, and contact time definitely come into play. (Everybody knows that you should be allowing 5 minutes wet contact for best effect - though longer is required for some pathogens, and that ,when mixed with tap water, the solution has a shelf life of about a week - about 6 weeks, if mixed with distilled water, right?)
Quaternary ammonium products, like Roccal-D, are more effective...and parallel the performance of bleach in most of the studies I have seen. Like bleach, they are toxic,though; and disnfected items must be rinsed.
I do use Chlorhexidine gluconate for routine stuff, but I use either bleach or Roccal for quarantine and periodic disinfection.

returning now to Wyatt/TW International

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jen,

Assuming I interpreted what was said right I would love to hear from your vet how does B12 (cyanocobalamin) interferes with virus replication, this might be some sort of recent breakthrough...Maybe you can ask at later time for an explanation in layman's terms or to refer you to the literature, I'm honestly interested.

Regards,

 

[lanceheads]

Well at the zoo I work for, and I am in charge of the reptile quarantine, I use Roccal and sometimes bleach (diluted) to clean enclosures. You must rinse either with water and let it dry before putting animals back in to it's enclosure.

Also, proper quarantine procedures dictate ALL animals are quarantined in a different room from established animal for a period of 60 days BEFORE animals are entered into the main collection. This includes 3 negative fecals must be done before entry into the collection.

Randal Berry

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Not the first time

Ok I'm lost I have read this thread a few times, and I am still trying to figure something out. Jen where did you take these Balls to and have them diagnosed ? something didn't and still doesn't sound right so, I decided to give Petcare Clinic @ 608-798-4545(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...07VetReport.jpg) a call. I talked to a sweet lady by the name of Kristy who told me that they do not do exotics in any shape or form at any of their locations. unless I missed something in all of this. If you would be kind enough to clear this up it would be appreciated.

 

[Cat_72]

Are you accusing Jen of making up her own vet report, Bill?

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Cat, not at all, I'm just going by what I was told on the phone.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

The vet report says Snakes it could be her cats name. J/K

 

[lanceheads]

Cathy,
Why on earth would you ask Bill that?
Just curious

Randal Berry

 

[Cat_72]

Because he is saying that the vet who Jen's vet report is from doesn't see exotics......so I'm trying to figure out where the heck he's going with that.

The link he posted doesn't work for me.

 

[rabernet]

The link he posted doesn't work for me.

I believe the link comes from this post:

The WC snakes were bought back in FEBRUARY -- 7 months prior to your het clown arriving. The one arrived sick and died 6 days after showing up, before I could do anything -- hence why I said I have never had to deal with an RI. The second one is no longer in my collection and hasn't been for many months -- she laid her eggs, fed, and was just fine, then I sold her. I don't see how these or my CH animals from 8-16 months ago have anything to do with this? If they had carried in the virus, why are my snakes getting sick NOW and not when they first joined my collection? If the WC ones had carried it, how is an inanimate surface going to carry a live virus for MONTHS after both animals were gone, then it magically infects my new snakes?

The post regarding Dizzy developing her RI was October 2nd -- your het clown arrived to me on September 28th. Last I checked, September 28th comes before October 2nd. Dizzy developed her RI symptoms on September 29th -- I started her on Tylan, and Kari had told me that she should have shown improvment within 24-48 hours. By October 2nd, she was getting worse, which is when I started her on Baytril. That is the same day your het clown female exploded with a full blown respiratory problem. Here is the vet receipt for the Baytril as proof:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/RavaFlava/1022007VetReport.jpg

I did go in my snake room to check on breeding pairs -- I never said that I completely and totally stayed out of that room 100%. I said I did not go in there often -- to check pairs and check water. Yep, took some pics too. But I wasn't in there every single day, so that's how I missed the other 3 developing symptoms. Regardless of whether I was in there or not, it doesn't change the fact that they indeed got sick and died.

Why was I still breeding? Because up until 2 days ago, I was still being told that this was bacterial and would be able to be cleared up with some simple antibiotics. I don't know of any breeder that stops breeding their entire collection just because one or two have a "routine" RI. I was not breeding the sick animals -- I continued my plans with my healthy ones. Same reason I was looking to buy new animals -- still thought it was a simple bacterial RI with an easy fix. That was also when only the het clown was sick -- do you stop buying animals entirely if one of your snakes has a simple RI?

I have already explained my quarantine procedures previously in this thread. I have one snake room -- the other 2 rooms in my house are my bedroom and my daughter's bedroom. New arrivals go into a separate rack on the opposite side of the room. They are never in contact with my collection on the other side, I wear vinyl gloves when dealing with all new arrivals, change them and sanitize my hands before moving to another animal. I use strictly Novalsan to clean anything and everything in my snake room -- water dish holders, tongs, spray bottles, EVERYTHING. I am a germ freak. I change my Novalsan mixture every 5 days to keep it fresh and effective. When this all started coming down, I was forced to make a temporary quarantine in my bedroom -- and have been suffering since I have to keep the room at 80 and I sure the heck can't sleep at that temperature. That is why I never did it beforehand.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Cat_72]

Thanks Robin.

All she did was pick up the meds from this vet.

The vet that did the autopsy is Dr. Mark Gordon at the Fitchburg Veterinary Hospital -- (608) 271-4212.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

The link is the same as she posted her vet report here. And where I am going is hopefully in the same direction as everyone else. To find out what is really going on with these balls. One thing I've never been, is shy if it don't feel right, I pick up a phone, instead of playing ring around the word game. I am truly sorry if someone is offended by this. Thats just the way it is.