TW International Wyatt in Texas

[LakesideBoas]

Jay,

Maybe you are thinking about humans but animal virology is a whole different story. Different viruses can and will survive in the environment for extended periods of time given the right conditions. Here's an excerpt of just one article from the USDA referring to FMD. But you can find hundreds of references in the literature.

There are indeed human specific viruses that also can live for extensive periods outside a host. I have a table that I am trying to get into an image format that lists quite a few. I will try and get this image on here without a scanner as mine has now decided it would rather be a paper weight than a paper scanner...

 

[Wilomn]

Hey wyatt, isn't it great having a wonderful reputation? Isn't it cool being known for doing the right thing and selling only healthy animals? Isn't it awesome to know that your reputation is so solidly built that when someone accuses you of some misdeed you are NOT automatically presumed guilty of that misdeed?

Oh wait, silly me.

YOU have no familiarity with ANY of those things. Do you.

Sucks to be you wyatt.

 

[critical bill]

It's because of all those substances I ingested and inhaled in my younger days. That and all those Metallica concerts.

I inhaled too.

Who is Metallica, and what is a concert?

 

[Dr Owens]

Look this stuff up as I don't like feeling like I am the perpetrator of misinformation.

This is a quote from a pbs.org article (I can post the scientific articles too, but you all be snoring before reading them in their entirety!):

"One of the ways in which disease organisms can be transmitted is by being durable in the external environment. If we imagine a disease organism that could last for 10 years in the external environment, even if a person who's infected is immobilized, coughing or sneezing or shedding one way or another, many people may come to that spot in the next 10 years, so that immobilized person could still serve as a source of infection for many susceptible individuals.
What we expect, if that argument's right, is to see an association between how durable the disease organisms are in the external environment and how harmful they are. And that's exactly what we see. At the top of the list is the smallpox virus, which can last, in some cases, for more than 10 years in the external environment, and it's the most damaging of all the respiratory tract infectious agents of humans. Next on the list would be the tuberculosis bacterium, which is also quite durable in the external environment. It's also a very damaging pathogen."

In no way am I saying this virus is akin to any of those stated, but the fact remains that viral diseases and vectors are constantly being studied to better affect treatments for them. As a vet tech I should keep up with those studies, but I have not worked in the field for many years. I will not let myself get too far out of the loop in the future and these kinds of studies are of interest to me.

First, smallpox (AKA Variola major, and Variola minor) no longer exists except in vaults at the CDC, and the Russian equivalent of the CDC (whatever the hell the name of it is). Second, I will believe that it can survive 10 years outside of a host organism (humans being the only known host) when I see that information from a reliable scientific source...not some random (unreferenced) quote from a PBS documentary. Third, the disease has been eradicated since the late 70's...I hardly think that qualifies it as "common."

TB is not a virus, so it's not even relevent to this conversation.

 

[Dr Owens]

I think there are too many inconsistencies here and I just don't see how Wyatt can be held responsible for Jen's unfortunate present situation.

I agree.

The only way the necropsy reports would be able to point the finger to one source or another is if they show how long the virus had been inside the snake, and I'm not sure if that is possible to do (might be though. Jay?).

No...it's not possible. Any claims that are made in this regard will be speculative at best.

 

[LakesideBoas]

Jay...

Then read the mentioned references in these publications...:

The survival of pathogens outside the host is important for the epidemiological dynamics of several disease agents. The persistence in the environment is highly important for the circulation of Hepatitis A virus (Crance et al., 1998), Foot-and-mouth disease virus (Thomson et al., 2003), parvovirus (Barker & Parrish, 2001), as well as for infectious canine hepatitis virus (Woods, 2001) and avian influenza viruses (Stallknecht et al., 1990).

As a doctor I respect the fact that you had to study long and hard to get your degree. As a technician I had to study long and hard to get mine. I also had to work with viruses and bacterium every day. If I did not keep up with my studies I would be inefficient as a Lab Technician and my inefficiency would reflect on my superior's diagnosis (My boss, the Vet). I would not have held the job for seven years by making elementary mistakes about what virus/bacterium I was dealing with and/or how it was transmitted (airborne, environmental, etc.).

I do not speak in technical terms so some folks have a propensity for not taking me seriously. That has been detrimental to some who underestimate my intelligence and my education. I can have a rip-roaring time with the best of them-(and I have)- but I do not throw out information without the wherewithall to back it up. I am also not too proud to admit when I am wrong.

I will get this table posted if I have to take a picture of the darn thing.

 

[Wilomn]

Let's not sidetrack too far away from Jen and wyatt.

 

[Dr Owens]

Jay,

Maybe you are thinking about humans but animal virology is a whole different story. Different viruses can and will survive in the environment for extended periods of time given the right conditions. Here's an excerpt of just one article from the USDA referring to FMD. But you can find hundreds of references in the literature.

Synopsis of Results: Mechanical Transmission
There are many factors to consider in order to arrive at a risk rating for mechanical transmission.
Whether or not a particular agent is infectious is of importance. Agents requiring a vector for
transmission are not at risk for mechanical transmission under this study’s focus. The amount of
the agent shed in secretions and excretions is also important. If a disease-causing agent is shed in
doses too low to cause disease in another host, the risk level is much lower then if high amounts
of the agent are shed. Many of the viruses causing List A diseases can survive in the environment
at room temperature for extended periods of time. This prolonged survivability increases the risk
of disease transmission by allowing more time for contact with a susceptible animal to occur.
Another factor to consider in mechanical transmission is the type of contact with the infected
animal that is required. If an agent can be transmitted via environmental contact, the level of risk
is much higher than if direct contact with lesions is required. An example of environmental
contact is a person walking onto an infected premises, never touching an animal yet becoming
contaminated with the disease agent. The person then walks onto another premises, again never
touchs an animal and yet spreads the agent to the new location. For this project, only the person
and their clothing were taken into account when assessing the risk of mechanical transmission
from a human to an animal. Any animal products or equipment they might be carrying were not
considered.

Source: The Potential for International Travelers
to Transmit Foreign Animal Diseases
to US Livestock or Poultry
August 1998
USDA:APHIS:VS
Centers for Epidemiology and Animal Health
555 South Howes
Fort Collins, CO 80521 USA

This is the main reason why if you try to attempt to bring animal products into the US from countries that have had outbreaks of the virus you are not allowed. Same goes for your shoes, you need to declare if you have been in contact with soil, pasture, and/or animals. Your shoes will then be scrubed cleaned with an antiseptic. They act as fomites (inert carriers) and can very well transmit a virus from one country to another (not to mention from one farm to another when the truck follows the same route).

Regards.

Dan,
With all due respect, your reference does not define "extended periods of time." Since viruses usually die rather quickly outside of the host organism, the term "extended" is somewhat relative. Bear in mind, we're talking about viruses here, other pathologic organisms are another story all together, and your quote is discussing "mechanical transmission" of disease which is certainly not limited to viruses.

I never said that viruses can't survive outside of a host organism. What I said was this: "The most common viruses can survive from a few seconds to at most a couple of days outside of a host."

If someone can demonstrate an example of a virus that can survive (survivability being defined by it's ability to remain infectious) for more than a couple of days outside of any host organism, then I would be interested in knowing what it is.

(I see a lot of Googling in a few people's futures... )

 

[LakesideBoas]

Third, the disease has been eradicated since the late 70's...I hardly think that qualifies it as "common."

You are correct. The last known outbreak of smallpox was in 1977. I did not use that as an example, the article did. And even though the disease has been effectively eradicated it still could live outside the host for extended periods and once a rash formed, smallpox could spread to people within 6 feet away.

Just because the virus isn't infecting people today has no bearing on it's pathology. If it was present in our population now it would still manefest itself the same way.

 

[LakesideBoas]

BTW...

Why are we sitting here splitting hairs anyway??? Until the path report comes in, this conversation is as useless as tits on a boar.

 

[Wilomn]

Jay, I think the parvo virus is able to stay in soil for several years. I had a dog die from it about 7 years ago. I "adopted" a couple of pups last xmas and both of them wound up with the virus, having never been exposed to any dogs other than their mother and father, both of whom tested negative. I believe it is also airborn so it may have just floated in but my vet said it most likely came from the soil in my yard.

Now, let's get back to jen and wyatt.

 

[Dr Owens]

Jay, I think the parvo virus is able to stay in soil for several years. I had a dog die from it about 7 years ago. I "adopted" a couple of pups last xmas and both of them wound up with the virus, having never been exposed to any dogs other than their mother and father, both of whom tested negative. I believe it is also airborn so it may have just floated in but my vet said it most likely came from the soil in my yard.

Now that you mention it, I think that this is probably a good example. While I obviously don't deal with canine parvo, I have had several vets tell me that it's really hard to ever know from where an animal contracted it due to it's hardy nature. I will defer to a vet with the specifics.

Now, let's get back to jen and wyatt.

I agree. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[LakesideBoas]

You brought it up...

In this thread so I will continue it in this thread.

Here you go:


Hepatitis A virus can live outside the body for months, depending on the environmental conditions. The virus is killed by heating to 185 degrees F (85 degrees C) for one minute. However, the virus can still be spread from cooked food if it is contaminated after cooking. Adequate chlorination of water, as recommended in the United States, kills hepatitis A virus that enters the water supply.

Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD) is an acute, highly contagious picornavirus infection of cloven hooved animals.The virus (FMDV) is sensitive to environmental influences, such as pH less than 5, sunlight and dessication, however it can survive for long period of time at freezing temperatures.
Because the canine parvovirus is not enveloped in fat the way the distemper virus is, canine parvovirus is especially hardy in the environment. It is readily carried on shoes or clothing to new areas (which accounts for its rapid worldwide spread shortly after its original appearance). It is able to overwinter freezing temperatures in the ground outdoors plus many household disinfectants are not capable of killing it indoors.

Infectious canine hepatitis (ICH), caused by canine adenovirus -1 (CAV-1) was recognized as a specific viral disease of dogs in 1947 (1). The virus is a medium sized DNA virus without a lipoprotein envelope. There is antigenic relatedness between CAV-1 and CAV-2, and they provide cross-protective immunity (2). The disease can result in severe disease in dogs and other candids and also in Ursidae (bears) (3). The virus is ubiquitous being excreted in the urine of affected dogs for long periods of time. As with other adenoviruses, CAV-1 resists environmental inactivation with chemicals such as chloroform, ether, acid and formalin. The virus survives for days at room temperature and remains viable for months at temperatures below 4oC. CAV-1 is inactivated after 5 minutes at 500 to 600C. Chemical disinfection is effective with iodine, phenol and sodium hydroxide (3).

The influenza A viruses (bird 'flu')belong to the family Orthomyxoviridae (Lamb, 1989). Other members of the family include influenza viruses type B and C, the insect viruses Togotho and Dhori, and Salmon Anemia virus. Influenza A virions are 80-120 nm in diameter. The influenza viruses are relatively unstable in the environment. Heat, extreme changes of pH, or nonisotonic conditions and dryness can readily inactivate the influenza viruses.

The only one that meets your standard criteria of not having longevity outside a host environment is the Avian Influenza virus(es).

Now, back to your regularly scheduled roasting of the participants of this drama.

 

[Dr Owens]

As I said before, I am done with this, as in the context of the overall topic at hand, the point is moot.

Having said that, it is worth mentioning that viruses that are transmitted by a fecal-oral route are generally speaking more hearty than most others. Primarily because the feces act as a protective vector (protective against the elements). However, without the protective vector of feces (and/or whatever the feces is in: soil, water, etc) to protect the virus from UV light, and extreme swings of heat and cold, the virus doesn't really live very long.

One more thing...the topic at hand here is respiratory disease...not GI diseases, hence fecal-oral transmission doesn't really apply.

 

[Dr Owens]

Maybe you are thinking about humans but animal virology is a whole different story.

I wanted to address one more thing that Dan said (I meant to say this earlier). You're right Dan, I was primarily thinking of human virology, as that is what I concern myself with on a day to day basis. Quite frankly, I don't really care too much about zoonotic diseases that aren't transmitted to humans because I have enough information to worry about as it is. The truth is, I really only concern myself with things that can affect my animals; however, I try to solve those problems before they ever occur. There's an old adage, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." And you know something? It's true.

 

[LakesideBoas]

As I said before, I am done with this, as in the context of the overall topic at hand, the point is moot.

Having said that, it is worth mentioning that viruses that are transmitted by a fecal-oral route are generally speaking more hearty than most others. Primarily because the feces act as a protective vector (protective against the elements). However, without the protective vector of feces (and/or whatever the feces is in: soil, water, etc) to protect the virus from UV light, and extreme swings of heat and cold, the virus doesn't really live very long.

One more thing...the topic at hand here is respiratory disease...not GI diseases, hence fecal-oral transmission doesn't really apply.

You didn't split hairs when you implied I was off my rocker here-->>

viruses essentially cannot survive for very long outside of their host organism. 30 days? No way. Years? Ridiculous. The most common viruses can survive from a few seconds to at most a couple of days outside of a host.

<<---

I am wrong in supposing you were referring to all viruses in that vague description? Hmmm...'kay.

It is possible that some people are at least as well educated as yourself.

 

[Wilomn]

Guys, really, this is NOT about who knows more and from where or for how long.

Maggie, take it to the proper forum if you must continue.

 

[LakesideBoas]

Yes, Dad.

 

[Dr Owens]

You didn't split hairs when you implied I was off my rocker here-->>

Maggie,
Several people had made statments about the nature of viruses. I did not call you by name. I'm sorry that you took it personally.

I am wrong in supposing you were referring to all viruses in that vague description? Hmmm...'kay.

I did say "the most common viruses." I certainly did not say "all." And yes, the topic at hand is respiratory disease, so I was thinking in that context.

It is possible that some people are at least as well educated as yourself.

Uhhhhhhmmmmm...yeah. Ok.

You know something Maggie? I wasn't trying to be insulting to you. I'm sorry that you took it that way. However, your ability to Google exceptions to my previous statement hardly puts us on the same playing field educationally. You are a veterinary lab tech (based on your previous post), and I am a physician who has four degrees, two of which are professional doctorates. Quite simply, (and I'm sorry if someone thinks this makes me sound like a conceited jerk, but it's true none-the-less) you are not as educated as I am. Anyone can look up an answer.

 

[Dr Owens]

Guys, really, this is NOT about who knows more and from where or for how long.

I agree, Wes.

I'm done.

The topic at hand is Jen, Wyatt, and their misadventures.