TW International Wyatt in Texas

[critical bill]

FWIW Bill....I backspaced the name I had originally used, and retyped "creep". Figured he wasn't worth the warning points.

I think Jen now understands her errors here, and we don't need to keep telling her. The difference between Jen and Wyatt is huge, though....I don't believe that Jen ever had any malicious intent, or intent to purposely "cover up" anything, and I believe she will learn from her mistakes as best she can. She truly cares about her animals, something that seems to be too few and far between anymore.

Wyatt, on the other hand, doesn't give a flying fart and will continue to be a, eh.......creep.

Wink wink, I hear ya. She's on my lotto list along with SPJ of people that should be hooked up when I win. Might even offer her a further lump sum to stop typing in pink. Heh.....

 

[ToshaMc]

In an effort to help understand this a bit more - I set up an appointment with my vet to discuss this virus, pick his brain, see what he thinks and if he'd seen it before, treatment/prevention possibilities - so I pulled a bunch of Jens posts from the three forums regarding the RI debacle - hoping to get a clear picture and a good time frame, list of the animals involved, meds tried, vet info in case he wanted to confer with her vets, etc.

I've got to be honest here - I like Jen and all - but what I found were not just mixed up dates - but huge holes and glaring contradictions to the point that either Jen has bad quarantine procedures, bad records and amnesia - or there is more to the story than she is saying. I'm sorry as much as I'd like to be 100% on Jens side because she is a nice girl who is very helpful and Wyatt has a somewhat tarnished reputation - the story does not add up.

Unless someone else comes forward with a sick animal from Wyatt that can be tested against the virus that Jens has - there will be no way to prove that the virus came from him. That doesn't mean it did or didn't but there's no way to prove it - but from my readings I do honestly believe it was there before the het got there.

There were a multitude of mistakes made here from Wyatt's choice of shipper to Jens bad quarantine to vet techs handing out prescriptions to their friends - to vets misdiagnosing over the internet etc etc. A sad case of too many dropped balls - and a good example of why if you are dealing with herps you need to have access to a herp vet and not just rely on what so and so breeder said.

I wish Jen the best of luck and I hope she is able to see her collection healthy again!

 

[Jim@SW]

Tosha

If you have a chance. Talk to Dave Barker. He has an opinion on this virus. I spent a couple of days here lately with him. He mentioned another big breeder who had a similar or same virus. The breeder he talked about has lost many animals to it. I do not remember the full details. That is why I am not repeating what Dave stated. You can use my name if you talk to Dave if you like. I can say this though. I would be very careful who I purchased anything from. I have always tried to purchase local. I like to see what I am getting, and where it is coming from if possible. I been to facilities that look bad when they know I am coming. I wonder what they look like on a daily basis. It used to be mites were the biggest problem years ago. Now mites I think would be minor problem compared to what Jen has.

Jim Stelpflug
Southwest Wisconsin Reptiles

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

...vet techs handing out prescriptions to their friends...

I don't know what clinics you go to, but techs can't just hand out drugs to people. Kari isn't my friend, I just know her through the clinic. Dr. Valenta authorized the Baytril on the phone with me, hence her ability to bring it over.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

and a good example of why if you are dealing with herps you need to have access to a herp vet and not just rely on what so and so breeder said.

How was I relying on what "so and so breeder" said? I don't recall ever asking a breeder -- I have been asking VETS that we know within our hobby. I do have access to a reptile vet -- it was just damn hard finding the 3rd one (Dr. Gordon). The 2nd one I went to advertises himself as being a reptile vet -- but he didn't know crap...which is why I moved on to a different one. Hate to say it, but there are vets that say they treat herps but really don't have a clue, then vets that actually do treat herps and know what they're doing. The only way to find out who is who is to meet them and see them in action. Wish it could have been over some minor thing, but the cards didn't play out that way for me.

If you have more questions or want these "gaping holes" filled in, feel free to e-mail me. I'll discuss this all you want. I haven't left a damn thing out whatsoever -- what I posted is what happened and nothing is missing.

 

[varnyard]

Jen, is one of the good guys/gals in our hobby. Somehow I missed this thread, I am going back to read all of this.


For the record I agree with this statement, been there and done that!!

Hate to say it, but there are vets that say they treat herps but really don't have a clue, then vets that actually do treat herps and know what they're doing. The only way to find out who is who is to meet them and see them in action. Wish it could have been over some minor thing, but the cards didn't play out that way for me.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Oh, and Wes -- I'm sorry that you feel all of that was irrelevant, but I felt it was necessary to explain exactly why I conceded. It wasn't just this one thing -- it was an entire mess of things and this was all the icing on the cake. People wondered why, I answered. You're the king of adding irrelevant things to BOI threads (chest hair, gay relations, whatever else you come up with), so mine is easily excusable as it is semi-related.

 

[critical bill]

Oh, and Wes -- I'm sorry that you feel all of that was irrelevant, but I felt it was necessary to explain exactly why I conceded. It wasn't just this one thing -- it was an entire mess of things and this was all the icing on the cake. People wondered why, I answered. You're the king of adding irrelevant things to BOI threads (chest hair, gay relations, whatever else you come up with), so mine is easily excusable as it is semi-related.

Easy does it, Jen. Everyone knows I'm the king of adding irrelevant things such as gay relations to most BOI threads.

 

[Wilomn]

Oh, and Wes -- I'm sorry that you feel all of that was irrelevant, but I felt it was necessary to explain exactly why I conceded. It wasn't just this one thing -- it was an entire mess of things and this was all the icing on the cake. People wondered why, I answered. You're the king of adding irrelevant things to BOI threads (chest hair, gay relations, whatever else you come up with), so mine is easily excusable as it is semi-related.

jen, it makes not one bit of difference what you do in any aspect of any part of your life if your quarentine system sucks as bad as yours did.

You keep making excuses for why you did not have adequate quarentine and it really doesn't matter.

You KNEW better, you KNEW you were doing it wrong, you KNEW it was possible to have happen exactly what did happen. YOU KNEW IT.

I know you knew it because you are not stupid.

So, quit making excuses. YOU messed up. I know you have said you did but then you go on about how and why and it really doesn't matter.

When you cut all the nonsense out, YOU brought in whatever you have in your snakes by NOT having proper quarentine for incoming animals.

Keep on and I'll stop being nice.

 

[critical bill]

This bout is sanctioned by the Nevada state boxing commission and sponsored by Budweiser.....the King of Beers. 'Know when to say when.'

 

[rabernet]

I'd like to know if Jen still plans to breed this season. I'm still shocked that the clown was out of quarantine and breeding in 3 weeks' time, ESPECIALLY since he came from a show environment. Jen mentioned her QT length depends on who she gets the animals from. I don't care who the source is, 3 weeks seems very short to me.

I've got a new mojave - I trust the source, but he's not coming out of QT for at least 90 days.

It does appear just from information offered in this thread that Jen was moving too fast in her breeding plans this year, and became very careless because she was in such a rush. Added to the fact that her home has it's own challenges for QT, putting animals together so quickly is like playing with fire and seems wreckless to me.

If I were you Jen, I'd call this breeding season a wash and get your animals well. I would definitely keep my collection closed for some time.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

The het clown passed away last night -- she's frozen right now and will be dropped off tomorrow to be sent to a lab in Florida for virus isolation and more extensive pathology. At this point, I think I'm going to euthanize the 2 remaining sick females and have all 3 bodies sent at the same time so we have enough good samples and tissues to work with.

 

[ravensgait]

Jen sorry to hear that I had hoped they would all pull through for you.. Now more bad news, if you froze the female you made it difficult if not impossible for the lab to find much of anything.. If any others pass away put them in the fridge till you can take them in.. Again sorry about your animals...Randy

 

[Mad4You2]

I'm sorry for your losses Jen...hopefully the labs will be able to shed some light on the virus. Again, I'm very sorry.
Angie Martin

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

Jen sorry to hear that I had hoped they would all pull through for you.. Now more bad news, if you froze the female you made it difficult if not impossible for the lab to find much of anything.. If any others pass away put them in the fridge till you can take them in.. Again sorry about your animals...Randy

My vet specifically told me to freeze her. Refrigerate if they were going to be doing the necro and pathology, but they are not -- she is being sent to some lab in Florida. I followed my vet's instructions.

 

[ravensgait]

Always good to follow their instructions,,, I've always understood that freezing them destroys tissue ETC.

I wish this had turned out better for you Jen, keep your head up it'll get better...Randy

 

[Melissa_Khrs]

I'm sorry to hear about the passing of the female Jen. Quite a pity.

 

[Pink Lady Exotics]

When I had called Dr. Gordon about the big girl that died, he had told me to refrigerate her until I brought her over so that she would be preserved until he could do the necropsy and extract the various samples. The night we discussed all of the results and whatnot that I had posted before, he told me that if I lose any more, that they should be frozen as soon as possible to preserve everything as-is, so he can send them to a specific lab in Florida for extensive testing (I don't know what the lab is, but I'm thinking U.S. Fish & Wildlife perhaps since he mentioned "virus isolation"). When I found her dead last night, I put her in the fridge and called and left a voicemail at the clinic. I wanted to double-check his instructions before doing anything. He called me back right at 8am this morning, when they opened the clinic. He verified that yes, he wanted the body frozen. I double-bagged her and we decided to put her in the snow outside as it is far colder than my freezer and would be more similar to the dry ice he will be putting her on to send her to Florida. I don't know why the difference in the two methods, I'm just trusting him to know what he's talking about and what he's instructing me to do. He has a very specific plan I'm following as things happen.

Don't be sorry -- yes, this sucks, and I'm having a hard time dealing with it, but right now, it's my fault this spread as far as it did. I'm lucky it didn't go any farther (yet) and that I haven't lost the 3 animals that mean the most to me. This cost me my 2 biggest breeders, my 2 adult het females, and one of my coolest dinking projects. Big joke how fate decided to wipe out certain ones that were essential to my breeding projects. One damn hard lesson to have to learn from.

 

[ajc]

I am considering buying a snake from Wyatt and that's the only reason I'm here.

I really try to keep my mouth shut on any thread that doesn't apply to me, but I have to say something here.

1. People are taking shots at Wyatt's packing/shipping methods when they obviously have little to no experience shipping.

Example A. I live in Missouri and and I wasn't heat packing anything in September. I spent a good portion of that month dancing around dangerously hot daytime highs. Whoever made the comment about Wyatt "owing" Jen for "not using a heatpack that time of year" should apologize to Wyatt.

Example B. Sorry Jen, but ventilation holes are unnecessary and only defeat the purpose of an insulated box. I don't know where this trend started, but it doesn't make any sense (unless you can show me an air-tight cardboard box) . I don't know how to put this politely, but please know what you're talking about before publically criticizing someone who has 15-20 years experience doing it. There's a pretty good chance they might know a thing or two that you don't.
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2. Any snake that gets shipped and is stuck in transit for three days is going to be stressed and therefore much more susceptible to illness. The snake going ballistic, biting and "tail wagging" was a pretty clear sign that it was stressed out of its mind.

3. It's ignorant (not name calling, meant literally) to assume that other snakes in the collection were infected and started showing symptoms within 24 hours of the het clown's arrival. That said, Jen's attack on Wyatt here was based solely on ignorance and I really hope she thinks twice next time before publically acusing someone of spreading "the plague".

That kind of thing can be seriously damaging to someone's reputation and I cringe at the thought of being in Wyatt's shoes after what you've said here publically.

Sure, you came along later and conceded that you couldn't prove it was his fault, but what about the 200 people who formed their opinions and quit reading this thread before you said that?

 

[Wilomn]

3. what about the 200 people who formed their opinions and quit reading this thread before you said that?[/QUOTE]
What about them? If people want to make decisions without all the facts, they are free to do so. Just as you are free to do business with a scumbag.

Have at it but don't belittle those who choose otherwise. I don't recall what the temps were at jen's but do you know for a fact that it was warm enough that heat packs were not necessary or are you making ASSumptions?

Seems to me that your post was sort of on the ignorant side.