What's with the price crashing?

[Wraith]

I would do a LOT of comparison of prices offered by various breeders - known and unknown and find what the mean average is first before beginning to formulate a price of what I would charge for my animals. Pricing animals is much more involved than just supply/demand and figuring out how much this genetic trait is "worth" versus this other genetic trait or combo of traits.

A lot of people who are crashing the market probably are not even thinking about or taking into account that there are OVERHEAD COSTS to consider. You can't keep a fun hobby going if you can't make it pay for itself to some degree. You definitely can't run a business if you spend more than what you bring in. The cost of shipping, packing materials, food, heating/electricity/water, caging, cleaning supplies, labor, etc... all of that and more has to figure in to the overall sale cost of the animal to some degree. It's stupid to spend a lot of money to breed snakes and think you are going to be raking in the money if all you do is turn around and sell the animals you produce for a fraction of the cost than what you invested.. running a hobby/business into the ground /debt rather than trying to work it so that you make some small reasonable profit that will allow you to keep having fun or allowing you to expand. If the hobby isn't supporting itself, then you need to go take some business classes or get out altogether.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I guess that's the good thing about breeding corns and other colubrids. It doesn't matter if you drop prices since nobody is going to buy them anyway...

I'd rather have a $200 corn on my table that won't sell, than a price dropped $50 corn that won't sell....

Now dont be pickin on my corns

 

[gsrept]

The key to the whole thing which will never happen, every one needs to price the same and that will stop the low balling. but as we all know its not a perfect world and people will sell dirt cheap so they are not sitting on babies.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I am not understanding the correlation between selling to a Flipper or Wholeseller vs price dropping ourselves. From what I understand, we would drop the prices to get them to a wholeseller/flipper who in turn will sell them below price on the market. Regardless the consumer still benefits.

Business-wise, the only difference that I see is now a middle man has been involved and and the breeder has still lost money.

 

[garweft]

Now dont be pickin on my corns

I wasn't..... I was picking on all of mine.

 

[Jay the Turtleman]

Some of the pricing issue IS supply and demand...but, under ordinary circumstances, (IMO) that wouldn't result in the massive reductions that have been happening. That is due to the people. Now, I believe that people can price their animals however they want...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with their strategies. Where I see it being a problem is that people are slashing prices before they even try to sell, and that sets off a sort of chain reaction. Joe Newguy looks at what people are selling (fill in the blank) for, decides he doesn't want to get stuck with the 5 he has, and prices his at 25% less to move them quickly. Pete Downthestreet checks ads and sees Joe's prices, and knocks another 10% off when he posts his own ad. Jenny Fromtheblock has a couple to sell, so she undercuts Pete....then T. Otalnewb comes along and puts his up at the same price. A week later, T. Otalnewb still has his (_______), so he drops the price...and does so weekly until they sell.
Why is that a problem?
Because I said so...
Well, actually, it's because of the response it instills in potential buyers. Too many people don't go out and buy these days, and the problem isn't just the economy. Sellers have trained buyers to wait, by showing them that all they have to do is sit on their wallets for a little while and better prices will come. The other thing that they have learned is that they can get away with making ridiculously low offers...it might create some ill feelings along the way but, eventually, somebody will jump at the chance to get rid of their (______).

Well what you described here is America, and the trend can be seen anywhere there is something offered for sale, not just the reptile community. That's why anti-trust laws exist. Competition, however bad it is for you, is good for consumers and great for the economy.

 

[hhmoore]

Competition, however bad it is for you, is good for consumers and great for the economy.

Just for the record, my posts (except for the part about people jumping into breeding too soon) were not so much gripes as they were attempts at explanation. What is happening is both good and bad for consumers, IMO.
With so much overbreeding, and non-selective breeding, it's getting harder to find that awesome example of the one's favorite morph. For those that aren't all that picky, though, the reduction of price (that comes along with not only increased supply, but an increase in the number of suppliers) is fantastic. Superficially, it's depressing when I think about the amount I paid for some animals, compared to the amount I will be paid for their offspring. Unless I decide to bail on a project, though, I'll produce enough animals over the years to recoup those initial expenditures...even at greatly reduced prices. And, if I don't, I'll have had the pleasure of having the animals themselves - I've got critters that I paid a bunch of money for, but I no longer have any interest in breeding. I keep them, now, because I like them. I'll never get that money back...but I've got some awesome snakes that bring me a good deal of happiness (ok, so I'm a hoarder, lol).
For me, my pricing depends on my perception of the animals. If I think a particular animal is worth more than what everybody is charging for "the same thing", I don't drop the price just to match (I still have a couple of last year's babies for just that reason). Some people are still willing to pay more for quality & "the right look" - I'm willing to wait for those people. And, for the stuff that doesn't make the grade - well, I'd rather wholesale it than put my name on it. Again - just the way I look at things.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Just for the record, my posts (except for the part about people jumping into breeding too soon) were not so much gripes as they were attempts at explanation. What is happening is both good and bad for consumers, IMO.
With so much overbreeding, and non-selective breeding, it's getting harder to find that awesome example of the one's favorite morph. For those that aren't all that picky, though, the reduction of price (that comes along with not only increased supply, but an increase in the number of suppliers) is fantastic. Superficially, it's depressing when I think about the amount I paid for some animals, compared to the amount I will be paid for their offspring. Unless I decide to bail on a project, though, I'll produce enough animals over the years to recoup those initial expenditures...even at greatly reduced prices. And, if I don't, I'll have had the pleasure of having the animals themselves - I've got critters that I paid a bunch of money for, but I no longer have any interest in breeding. I keep them, now, because I like them. I'll never get that money back...but I've got some awesome snakes that bring me a good deal of happiness (ok, so I'm a hoarder, lol).
For me, my pricing depends on my perception of the animals. If I think a particular animal is worth more than what everybody is charging for "the same thing", I don't drop the price just to match (I still have a couple of last year's babies for just that reason). Some people are still willing to pay more for quality & "the right look" - I'm willing to wait for those people. And, for the stuff that doesn't make the grade - well, I'd rather wholesale it than put my name on it. Again - just the way I look at things.

I am not understanding the correlation between selling to a Flipper or Wholeseller vs price dropping ourselves. From what I understand, we would drop the prices to get them to a wholeseller/flipper who in turn will sell them below price on the market. Regardless the consumer still benefits.

Business-wise, the only difference that I see is now a middle man has been involved and and the breeder has still lost money.

 

[hhmoore]

The biggest reason is convenience - selling at a reduced rate to move a number of animals at once may be better (for some people) than dealing with the hassle of individual sales...it saves time and money.
There's also the name thing - as I specified, for stuff that doesn't make the grade (meaning I'm not thrilled with the way it looks), I'd rather wholesale them than attach my name to them. Sure, I can sell two handfuls of blah looking somethingorothers individually for a cheaper price...but I'd rather be associated with the handful and a half of really nice ones that are worth a higher price. If they don't sell right away, I won't mind holding onto them for 6 months, caring for them, feeding them, etc. You know I don't like dealing with sales, I'm not going to subject myself to it for a group of animals I'm not proud to say came from me. Besides, you know too many people wouldn't grasp tiered pricing - they'd want the good stuff for the ugly stuff price, and get their knickers in a twist when I say no. Sure, I could probably try to average it out...but that would make the good stuff cheaper. They would sell first, and I'd be stuck with the stuff that I didn't want to mess with in the first place.

Make sense?

(I also don't necessarily agree that the wholesaler/flipper/third party would sell them at a reduced rate. Some do, sure. Some don't even sell to the public, though)

 

[joseydiann]

I think they are plenty high enough myself, at this rate if you are not rich it's almost impossible to own a nicer morph bp just for a pet.
I want an albino so bad I'm about to sell off a kidney just to buy one.

 

[hhmoore]

And therein lies the other part of this -
As a breeder, it is disheartening to see that morph you paid $2500(+) for selling for $300-400...and it will take just that much longer to recoup the initial investment. However, every time the price drops, it opens that morph up to a new enthusiast that wasn't ready/able to pay the last price. That means more potential buyers (of course, every step along the way means there are also more sellers - many of whom are overwilling to make huge reductions now).

 

[Southern Wolf]

I am not understanding the correlation between selling to a Flipper or Wholeseller vs price dropping ourselves. From what I understand, we would drop the prices to get them to a wholeseller/flipper who in turn will sell them below price on the market. Regardless the consumer still benefits.

Business-wise, the only difference that I see is now a middle man has been involved and and the breeder has still lost money.

Some pet stores will only deal with certian wholesalers... not the breeders themselves. The key is.... the wholesalers are buying in bulk and not just dropping the price on one animal thus possibly droping the price in the market.

Take normal corns for example. I have a wholesaler that will pay XX each and buys 20 at a time... however I may retail those same ones at XX (depending on hets genetics). Yeah... I cut my price by $3... but I moved 20 animals... and that is 20 less rodents I have to go thru per week. Will I come out in the end

But Im not advertising normal corns for XX each (what I make from my wholesaler).. and thus someone thinking they have to beat my prices... thus droppng the market even further.

I guess it is all about what I think my animals are worth. I have turned down a wholesaller because of what they were offering. I dont mind cutting a deal for quanity... but Im not giving them away so you can then mark em up and sell them to the pet stores for 300% profit.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Some pet stores will only deal with certian wholesalers... not the breeders themselves. The key is.... the wholesalers are buying in bulk and not just dropping the price on one animal thus possibly droping the price in the market.

Take normal corns for example. I have a wholesaler that will pay XX each and buys 20 at a time... however I may retail those same ones at XX (depending on hets genetics). Yeah... I cut my price by $3... but I moved 20 animals... and that is 20 less rodents I have to go thru per week. Will I come out in the end

But Im not advertising normal corns for XX each (what I make from my wholesaler).. and thus someone thinking they have to beat my prices... thus droppng the market even further.

I guess it is all about what I think my animals are worth. I have turned down a wholesaller because of what they were offering. I dont mind cutting a deal for quanity... but Im not giving them away so you can then mark em up and sell them to the pet stores for 300% profit.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

But Im not advertising normal corns for XX each (what I make from my wholesaler).. and thus someone thinking they have to beat my prices... thus droppng the market even further.

This is what is key in the question about selling to flippers/wholesalers. You shouldn't be publicly advertising your wholesale prices. Doing so drops the perceived value of the animals.

Something else I've noticed a lot lately with Ball Pythons...People advertising babies for sale whose eggs have been cut open...Haven't even come out of the eggs yet! What's with that? Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch...Just because you slice the egg open doesn't mean the hatchling's going to survive and thrive!

 

[Southern Wolf]

I wont advertise anything until it has fed on its own 3 times. I am not letting bad genetics or problem feeders out of my facility. If its a problem feeder... I should have to work with it.. not my customers.

 

[deborahbroadus]

I wont advertise anything until it has fed on its own 3 times. I am not letting bad genetics or problem feeders out of my facility. If its a problem feeder... I should have to work with it.. not my customers.

AMEN!!

I have some problem feeders that I didn't breed...I will sell them, but not advertise who sold them to me..they may do better in another environment. But myself, I don't let problem feeders out.

If they become problem feeders elsewhere...it's out of my hands. My animals usually eat within two weeks at the new homes (I follow up till they have fed).

 

[gsrept]

I totaly agree with you all But i always wait till mine are at least feeding 5 times and or swapped over to frozen thawed which ever comes first they usually swap at there third or fourth meal, just my way of ensuring i am selling someone an animal that is eating good. Happy Herping and lets see those babies

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

I wont advertise anything until it has fed on its own 3 times. I am not letting bad genetics or problem feeders out of my facility. If its a problem feeder... I should have to work with it.. not my customers.

Personally I dont mind working with problem feeders for a few reasons.

 

[bigjej]

Its funny cause these arguments/debates only really last more than five minutes in a hobby market. I've seen the same discussion in scuba, marine aquariums and photography. Many of the vendors are hobbyists, or amateur businessman who kind of expanded their hobby into a minor business but dont seem to understand, or want to accept, the rules of business in capitalism. This is not meant to be an insult to anyone here, just a point of view. Hobbys ARE NOT necessities and therefore when people's disposable income diminishes or dissappears, the first thing that goes is anything nonessential - scuba gear, photorgaphy equipment, pets, etc. You dont like it, well I'm sorry, thats how the cookie crumbles. If you choose to work in a nonessential business, you have to accept that. I give you credit as you get to work in a field that, much of the time, you actually enjoy. So there is a benefit but there is a cost too. In capitalism, people have the right to set the price as they wish and customers have the right to choose to purchase your product or not. When you have 100 people selling the same product, the person who wants to make the sale has to stand out and offer something the other 99 arent - quality, customer support, the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting your local ecomony or - what it usually comes down to - a cheaper price. When the oil companies collude to set a price and punish anyone who sells at a lower price, we call it a cartel and that is illegal in this country. The same goes for any other product. The only time the government steps in to set a price is if there is a political price to be paid or gained from stepping in or not - i.e. if a necessity ( like bread or milk get too expensive ) or a product ( like cigarettes or luxury items ) have too few political backers to protect them from being taxed at a higher rate. Just my two cents.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Its funny cause these arguments/debates only really last more than five minutes in a hobby market. I've seen the same discussion in scuba, marine aquariums and photography. Many of the vendors are hobbyists, or amateur businessman who kind of expanded their hobby into a minor business but dont seem to understand, or want to accept, the rules of business in capitalism. This is not meant to be an insult to anyone here, just a point of view. Hobbys ARE NOT necessities and therefore when people's disposable income diminishes or dissappears, the first thing that goes is anything nonessential - scuba gear, photorgaphy equipment, pets, etc. You dont like it, well I'm sorry, thats how the cookie crumbles. If you choose to work in a nonessential business, you have to accept that. I give you credit as you get to work in a field that, much of the time, you actually enjoy. So there is a benefit but there is a cost too. In capitalism, people have the right to set the price as they wish and customers have the right to choose to purchase your product or not. When you have 100 people selling the same product, the person who wants to make the sale has to stand out and offer something the other 99 arent - quality, customer support, the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting your local ecomony or - what it usually comes down to - a cheaper price. When the oil companies collude to set a price and punish anyone who sells at a lower price, we call it a cartel and that is illegal in this country. The same goes for any other product. The only time the government steps in to set a price is if there is a political price to be paid or gained from stepping in or not - i.e. if a necessity ( like bread or milk get too expensive ) or a product ( like cigarettes or luxury items ) have too few political backers to protect them from being taxed at a higher rate. Just my two cents.

That is an excellent point!