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Inquiry Why All The Hate Toward Reptiles By Mack?

caffeinecynic said:
I hope you'll consider what many people have said here before you take their word as completely honest.
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Yea, I never said I take their word as completely honest, did I?

All I've ever said, is that its more likely that they filmed what they saw, then it is that they manufactured these scenarios.

Did they try to make it look as bad as they could? Of course - thats what they do. But I just dont think its reasonable to conclude that its likely a fiction they've created.

The reasons, as I've stated before, are pretty conclusive. The RbM would sue them for millions and win easily if the employees or other witnesses didnt colloborate the story told by the video.

So someone replied that they may yet get sued, which I acknowledge. But PETA's lawyers aren't so dumb as to expose the organization to an easily won lawsuit. And having an employee or other witness testify that they saw the videographer hurting animals in order to video them, PETA would be sued into oblivion.

Instead, I suspect, the employees or other witnesses can be heard and seen on the video ignoring or even engaging in neglect or abuse.

So do you think the PETA guy or gal talked the employees into abusing the animals? Is that also part of the ruse?

Look guys, I get it that your really don't like PETA. Thats fine. But dont let your hatred blind you to reality here. There is simply no reason to suspect this video is anything other than what it purports to be.

Its always easy to attack the messenger, but unless you have a hint of evidence that PETA is engaged in an illegal ruse here, you kinda have to accept the evidence at face value.

Believe me, if any evidence emerges that indicates this may be manufactured rather than real, I'll be the first to welcome it. I dont condone illegal activity that could cost a family their business!

But there is a reason a jury cant hear about past indiscretions of a rape victim.
 
tlmoon said:
I think the real truth is both on sides. Yes: there are disturbing things at RBM and probably other large wholesalers AND yes: the group doing the filming is potentially suspect for a myriad of reasons. As has been mentioned, this is not an either or situation.

It's very easy to take isolated instances and show only those parts, leading viewers to believe what they are seeing is the whole truth.

Am I defending RBM if this video proves to be true? No way. They should look at this as an opportunity to improve and make a commitment to better practices. Some very concerning things have been shown. I hope they will not write this off as simple extremism attacking them.

Am I fan of PETA? No, I think they are extreme and they present only their own viewpoint. However, I would take into consideration that if they are indeed showing things that happened at RBM, then those things happened - whether or not PETA has an agenda.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and far, far more complicated than "wholesalers are bad", "PETA is wrong", etc. It's very easy to get pulled onto one side of controversial issues, and lose track of the gray areas. More importantly, we can get distracted from addressing the issues because are all so busy arguing about things.
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I agree with this. I don't believe it's "simply extremists" attacking them. I do question how much of this video is honest, because of who it came from. I have no doubt some of it is genuine, and I have no doubt there are things Reptiles by Mack needs to correct. I'm not sure I believe that 100% of the video is authentic and not staged. Even if 1% of it is real, that's something that RbM needs to correct.

My point is not to defend RbM's practices, but to explain that before you completely condemn them based on this video, consider the source the information came from.

It's not that I hate everything about PETA. It's not that I believe PETA can do no good. It's that I don't trust PETA not to have fabricated at least a portion of this video for their campaign and I doubt we, the public, will ever know for sure how much.

Unlike some, I do think it's more likely PETA fabricated a lot of the video, or orchestrated the scenarios in the video as employees of the company in order to create the disturbing images seen depicted.

To be more clear, I absolutely believe that some of the employees of Reptiles by Mack were employees of PETA and deliberately neglected the care of their animals for the video. I also believe that practices depicted were almost certainly implemented for the sake of said video.

That said, at the very minimum, Reptiles by Mack has a managerial problem because this level of mishandling should have been caught very early. If they were managing things correctly, NO ONE could have perpetrated the things depicted in this video to begin with.

There are problems on both sides, IMO.
 
It really doesn't matter what PETA's motive/message with the video is. If PETA shot this video and their message was that we should all be arrested for animal abuse because we own reptiles it means nothing. What is important is if the video is really RBM. We are not arguing over PETA's views here instead we are looking at just the video. Who cares what their message was. PETA and their views are absolutely ridiculous I think we all know that. I think we can also agree PETA is only going to show us the worst. That doesn't take away from what was shown though.
 
thamnophis123 said:
The reasons, as I've stated before, are pretty conclusive. The RbM would sue them for millions and win easily if the employees or other witnesses didnt colloborate the story told by the video.

So someone replied that they may yet get sued, which I acknowledge. But PETA's lawyers aren't so dumb as to expose the organization to an easily won lawsuit. And having an employee or other witness testify that they saw the videographer hurting animals in order to video them, PETA would be sued into oblivion..
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It is very hard to win lawsuits over "whistle" blowing and defamation. In order to win the lawsuit, the plaintiff must prove three things.

1.) What PETA said or showed is 100% false.
2.) What PETA said or did caused direct financial harm.
3.) What PETA did was direct malice.

In this case, RBM has to prove that is was impossible for animals in their care to be treated and condition liked that. If they had one bad employee, then lawsuit would be impossible. Since this is living animals and moments in time, RBM would have to prove that PETA actually created the conditions for the animals to be filmed, a task that would be impossible. RBM might not get enough financial harm from this to make a lawsuit worth it.

RBM would have to prove that PETA did this out of malice. Malice by law is a hostile impulse or deep-seated meanness. RBM would have to prove that PETA did not do the video for the safety of animals or public awareness. RBM would have to prove that PETA did it because they just wanted to harm RBM because they could and just hate him.

Then after all that, RBM would have to spend thousands of dollars on a case that would be considered a gamble in the best conditions. Once again, defamation cases are very hard to prove. Even if it was 100% false, it would be impossible to meet all three requirements for defamation.

After you prove all that, spend thousands of dollars on a lawsuit, PETA only benefits from the press coverage and your lawsuit. They could make more money off publicly announcing the lawsuit then you could get from them in the lawsuit.


Legal note: RBM will be considered a limited public figure because he is a business owner, posts online, and is known by people in public sphere. After posting in the other thread and posting an official response to the charges, he decided to seek public opinion.
 
MrTPlush said:
It really doesn't matter what PETA's motive/message with the video is. If PETA shot this video and their message was that we should all be arrested for animal abuse because we own reptiles it means nothing. What is important is if the video is really RBM. We are not arguing over PETA's views here instead we are looking at just the video. Who cares what their message was. PETA and their views are absolutely ridiculous I think we all know that. I think we can also agree PETA is only going to show us the worst. That doesn't take away from what was shown though.
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Looking at the video and looking at the response by RBM. It is clear something went off the rails and there is some serous problems in the video. I don't think RBM are completely innocent here, but this should be a course of animal control and legal means.



Public service announcement to everyone.

Watch what you say about PETA. Make sure it is 100% true.
 
thamnophis123 said:
Again, I would be happy to read any trustworthy, non-propogandistic info about PETA.

And your just so eager to lap up whatever propoganda they lay out for you.

I'm not a supporter of PETA - mostly because I dont know much about them. But I am a strong supporter of any group that fights animal abuse. I may not agree with every last aspect of their policies, but if they, like the Humane Society, the Humane League and others can eliminate some of the terrible abuse animals endure at the hand of man, they have my whole hearted support.
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News articles are propaganda?

And don't worry-- you'll learn more about them and the HSUSas they continue making inroads toward the total destruction of the reptile hobby.
 
only going to post once on here but...peta and the HSUS are liars and cheats and kill more than they ever help they have set up MANY smear campaigns blatantly lying and staging events. they have killed animals to prove "points" and have a universal agenda to ban pet ownership. HSUS is no longer allowed to be called a "charity organization" and now when you see the ads that now have a NEW sad song they will specifically not say certain words. because that would be lying.. i will never ever trust anything those people say. EVER it is far to easy to stage things like this. do you really think it's hard to get a shirt? PETA has caused HUMAN deaths as well by falsifying information and setting up these smear campaigns hurting peoples families, causing suicides and so on and they have the nerve to act nonchalant about it....i do not trust PETA, HSUS or retail rescues at all. please look up the humane watch, NAIA, stop retail rescue, and dogknobbit. i trust PEOPLES experiences and PEOPLES knowledge not a simply EVIL group.
 
well breaking that promise about once but wanted to ad.

PETA made fake animals for advertisements saying how "horrible" we are.

apparently we skin lambs alive for wool..all of us regardless of anything just because you own a sheep.

OH and apparently we ALL rip hair out of live rabbits.
they will PAY people to do these things "for the better good" it doesn't matter if the animal is trained and used to being sheared its abuse to help the animal by grooming it...FYI failure to groom sheep or angora rabbits can result in major health concerns and even death.

as for WHY no one sane, or in the industry of collecting wool from these animals would never RIP hair out.
ripping hair out of the animal damages the follicles which means less wool, it also causes stress that could reduce chances of conception and again hinder wool growth.
to maintain an angora rabbit's coat in adequate enough condition for it to be used you must brush them every day or every other day particularly around friction zones (ears, pits, belly, bum) which is when you also get wool. they are exposed from a young age to this treatment and ENJOY it unless they were not properly socialized in which case some may tie them for the animals own safety and overall health and well being. angora rabbits can die from ingesting wool if they are not groomed properly.

sheep take time to grow up and into wool, same can be said for the rabbits. they are not cheap or easy, things must be done to maintain the type of coats needed to make items with. wool has grades. so torturing or tormenting their animals in that manner would reduce productivity.
 
Hypancistrus said:
News articles are propaganda?

And don't worry-- you'll learn more about them and the HSUSas they continue making inroads toward the total destruction of the reptile hobby.
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The "news" in today's society has a lot of propaganda. Most news outlets clearly lean one way politically. For example one of your examples is The Huffington Post...total political site that is very bias. It is even defined as a political site and opening liberal.

I wouldn't assume just because it is a news article it just states the cold hard facts. Like PETA they enjoy swaying it one direction and leaving out pieces.
 
The other night I was not quite myself and, also, had a knee-jerk reaction to the video.

After thinking about this, I am, for now, reserving final judgement on RBM.
There are far too many unknowns.
Although, it does seem there are some things that need to be changed &/or corrected.

Some things, in the video, still breaks my heart but there are other things, in that video, that are either industry standard (i.e. shipping in delis/bags), &/or are overly exaggerated (i.e. statement of turtles desperately trying to get out of crates), etc. Plus, gassing is widely considered an acceptable/humane method of euthanasia.
It is, also, interesting that (though bad enough), this is all the footage they have after 15 weeks of being at RBM... if the place is as horrendous as PETA makes it out to be.

It doesn't negate the bad but I am certain that the footage was "cherry picked" to be shown.
That seems pretty standard with PETA (or some individuals within), at least some animal control officers, and some (in)humane socities (or some individuals within), etc.
Overall, it is typical to show what is wrong and ignore what is good.

To go further, I know, for a fact, that some of these above mentioned entities/individuals will stage things, &/or will take action (even if illegal) to make certain things look bad (or worse than reality), &/or will omit critical info that would clear someone from one or more "wrong doing" claims, &/or will even outright lie, etc.
If anyone believes that every one of these entities/individuals are beyond reproach, and would never do these things, you would be quite mistaken.
I am not stating this occurred, with PETA in this particular case (RBM), but it does happen.

As far as euthanasia, yes, these entities, or at least some of them, are exceedingly pro euthanasia. Even to the point of euthanizing animals directly after those poor critters enter into theirs hands or through their facility doors.
 
MidSouthMorphs said:
It looks rather bad when this site still allows them to advertise here.
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Seriously? Well how about I just swallow the PETA party line at full face value and not allow any advertising whatsoever of live animals from anyone. Nor any discussion about the care, maintenance, and propagation of live animals. That sound like the course I should follow to you?

:rolleyes:
 
I agree with Webslave. PETA would condemn ALL of us reptile keepers as guilty of the same crimes, by keeping pets at all.
 
Notice at the end of the video they don't say do anything to improve conditions but they say do not shop anywhere that sells live animals. To me, that says it all folks, a propaganda peice by people who may have very well injured the animals themselves then turned on the cameras. Animal rights nuts have released lions before to stage stunts so directly injuring or killing animals would be nothing for them.
 
PETA actually isn't full no pets at all. Most of the time I see them more on the "rescue" animals don't shop. If you go on Facebook that is what they tell people in the comments.
 
Weren't they the group that kidnapped a guys pet and euthanized it ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/peta-steals-and-kills-lit_b_6156196.html

Sorry but I don't think this group has an ethical bone in their body. I've also been told MO had to pass a law that you cannot interfere with hunting because of these nuts... the very sport that prevents habitat destruction through dollars to the state. I have no use for these people and do not believe anything they say, video, or write.
 
MrTPlush said:
PETA actually isn't full no pets at all. Most of the time I see them more on the "rescue" animals don't shop. If you go on Facebook that is what they tell people in the comments.
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You obviously need to research if that's what you think. 97% of the animals they get their hands on are EUTHANIZED. Healthy adoptable animals. But no, they're not trying to wipe out pets..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
ElexisOrtiz said:
You obviously need to research if that's what you think. 97% of the animals they get their hands on are EUTHANIZED. Healthy adoptable animals. But no, they're not trying to wipe out pets..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
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Go read the comments on Facebook. They are not full "no pets" because they support people going to shelters and getting an animal. If they didn't support pets at all wouldn't they yell at those people speaking to them? Now the fact the euthanize(or supposedly do) many animals that come in their door is a totally different concern. Bottom line their view on others going and adopting animals is OK to some degree. Now getting one from a pet store...absolutely not.

I hate PETA just as much as you all. Not because I think their views on topics are bad, but because of how they feel it should be fixed. I totally agree punching sheep is bad, but abolishing the wool industry that is just ridiculous.

I am not going to judge their video because I wasn't there and don't know if it is real or what parts of it are real. I don't think it is entirely fake...but I also realize it is reasonable to believe they were only showing bad things...possibly even staging some parts(like the dehydrated bearded dragon).

I am a bit surprised so much can be assumed here, but if we tried to do it in another BOI thread it would be unacceptable.
 
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