Inquiry Why All The Hate Toward Reptiles By Mack?

[bcr229]

How exactly did PETA get the run of the place at RBM and how long were they there? Was PETA purposely allowed access or did they get some people hired there specifically to do that obvious smear job? How many did they say they have already "exposed"? Six? Well, gee, now why do you suppose they are doing this? And do you think perhaps their choices of which videos to show were entirely random and non-biased?

According to some comments I read on Facebook - where the video is quickly going viral - the PETA-philes went in undercover as employees for several weeks which is typical for their modus operandi.

Animals crap. Cages get dirty 30 seconds after you clean them.

I see you've also kept retics.

So does that mean there should be NO wholesalers of animals?

While PETA has suggested that, I do not see anyone here advocating for that.

All in all an interesting video if nothing else for what PETA's obvious goal is. So I get the impression that we all should jump on the PETA bandwagon now? Go to 2:50 at the end of the video and listen to their goals. Sure let's all get worked up into a lynch mob and help them reach their goals. Boycott pet shops that sell animals! Get ALL animals out of the hands of everyone? And we are going to start with wholesalers! Yeah, that's the ticket!

PETA has never hidden its overall goals, and I do not agree with them. Also while the subject of the video is RBM, the public vitriol I've seen outside of the reptile community seems to be directed at PetSmart.

That said, I don't see it as a bad thing if the big box pet stores make the business decision to stop selling reptiles and repurpose the shelf space to selling supplies based on the husbandry practices I've seen locally. My local exotics-only shop has a wider variety of healthy, mite-free critters that are housed appropriately. I can't say the same for the big box stores.

And then when they go after the small time breeders who might just have one dead mouse or one water dish with crap an hour old in it, won't things be getting just ducky then? After all, won't these people ALSO be selling to the nasty pet shops still trying to stay in business?

Small-time breeders typically work out of their homes and can't afford employees, so the PETA-philes will have a much harder time gaining the level of access needed for a hatchet job.

Also there's also a big difference between a dirty water dish because it got crapped in (again), and someone stating he uses wire cutters to amputate legs, or putting live reptiles in the freezer to euthanize them.

 

[bubs327]

They've posted something on Facebook and a full statement here:

http://www.reptilesbymack.com/reptile-health-and-care.aspx

 

[bubs327]

Here is a screen grab, hopefully

 

[Hypancistrus]

I understand that mortality is part of dealing with livestock as do others, but the scale of suffering and death of what was shown is undeniable and unacceptable. The whole situation was compounded by John Mack sitting in this thread for almost an hour with nothing to say. If it were me and this whole situation was a ruse by PETA supporters I would have immediately explained the situation and then had an employee walk through my facility with their smart phone recording healthy animals in clean cages then uploaded it here. 2 pretty easy things to do in this day and age. Oh and if all reptile wholesalers went out of business I could care less. Then everyone would be forced to buy from breeders, both petshops and private collectors. Sure there are some crappy breeders out there but most are not. Can the same thing be said about large wholesalers? How is that a bad thing? Just my 2cents

Did you consider the fact that the owner may be facing actual criminal charges at the moment and that he may not wish to incriminate himself at all? LE do read boards for evidence.

I'm not on anyones side here... except firmly against PETA. But I think we should wait to see how this plays out first before getting out the tar and feathers....

 

[dieselfan]

Did you consider the fact that the owner may be facing actual criminal charges at the moment and that he may not wish to incriminate himself at all? LE do read boards for evidence.

I'm not on anyones side here... except firmly against PETA. But I think we should wait to see how this plays out first before getting out the tar and feathers....

I did.

 

[CwnAnnwn]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

When ever you want to drag peta around, you just might want to be careful. They have a tendency to be less then forthright. They are also very litigious. So watch what you are saying.

I don't know reptiles by mack. Never have bought anything alive from petco or petsmart, would never use a wholesaler unless I really had to.

When you want to base your opinion on PETA, you might want to make sure you can verify what they said first hand.

I am going to stop there before I get a friendly letter.

 

[thamnophis123]

That surprised me too. I guess "attack the messenger" is a suitable response? I don't agree with PETA's end game, but I actually really appreciate their undercover videos. Animal "agriculture" whether its hogs or sand skinks is ugly, that all there is to it.

I'm sure many of the people here would stop eating pork products if they had to spend a few hours seeing how pigs are treated / abused. Likewise, many people will choose a respected breeder over a big box pet store and the massive wholesalers who supply them with animals.

I've worked with importers and there is a lot of ugliness. Animals are not treated as pets on this scale. It makes no economic sense to do so. Untreated disease and injuries, less than humane euthanasia is common. Its just the nature of the game.

Last summer 45 *MILLION* birds where killed under a thick blanket of suffocating foam because they were exposed to avian flu. They died struggling for life, gasping for air. Did that change anyone's eating habits? DO peple who care about suffering lizards not care about suffering chickens? Or pigs? Or calves?

This is funny now every body going to atack peta and defend the breeder

 

[caffeinecynic]

That surprised me too. I guess "attack the messenger" is a suitable response? I don't agree with PETA's end game, but I actually really appreciate their undercover videos. Animal "agriculture" whether its hogs or sand skinks is ugly, that all there is to it.

I'm sure many of the people here would stop eating pork products if they had to spend a few hours seeing how pigs are treated / abused. Likewise, many people will choose a respected breeder over a big box pet store and the massive wholesalers who supply them with animals.

I've worked with importers and there is a lot of ugliness. Animals are not treated as pets on this scale. It makes no economic sense to do so. Untreated disease and injuries, less than humane euthanasia is common. Its just the nature of the game.

Last summer 45 *MILLION* birds where killed under a thick blanket of suffocating foam because they were exposed to avian flu. They died struggling for life, gasping for air. Did that change anyone's eating habits? DO peple who care about suffering lizards not care about suffering chickens? Or pigs? Or calves?

I think Webslave covered it best in this thread. I will quote what he had to say:

Well, since it has been established that it was PETA taking the video at RBM, (certainly without permission and under circumstances of THEIR choosing) and most certainly doing it under the pretext of being hired there to do a job, what job do you think it was that put them in the position to get that video footage? Cleaning animal cages perhaps? Caring for the animals, perhaps? Which do you think had the highest priority on their list of things to do every day? Take care of the animals they were tasked with, or getting the juiciest video they could to further the agenda they were tasked with by PETA?

Quite honestly, I am not convinced that this is any sort of unbiased view at all. I've been to some wholesalers myself, and some were extraordinarily well maintained, and others I wanted to take a half dozen showers after leaving there and burn the clothes I had been wearing. The worst seemed to be importers, in my opinion. The best were ones that bred their own animals for the majority of the stock they offered for sale. But none were, nor ever could be, pristine and spotless by any stretch of the imagination. Animals just do not give you that sort of luxury.

I am sorry, but I am just not buying into anything that PETA tries to convince me of. Not when their obvious agenda means the complete destruction of the entire animal industry. If anyone else wants to buy into that agenda, then have at it. Watch that video and pay attention to the end of it concerning what PETA is promoting. When they get your support to divide and conquer the wholesale aspect of the pet trade do you seriously think that will be the end of their focus? YOU, even with your handful of animals, will be next.

 

[thamnophis123]

Here's the funny thing from my perspective ... I live in the heart of pig country. We torture and slaughter 40 million pigs each and every year. When organizations like PETA come in and secretly video the animal abuse in the hog industry, we hear the animal ag respond with many of the exact same claims Rich came out with. Here's the truth - there is terrible abuse in any large scale animal "agriculture" - no economic way around it.

Do you care? Then rathe than attack PETA et al, and whine about their tactics, change your consumer habits. Stop supporting big box pet stores, stop eating industrial pork.

Attacking the messenger is weak. We can accept the ugly reality they expose and make informed consumer decisions in response.

I think Webslave covered it best in this thread. I will quote what he had to say:

 

[MrTPlush]

I feel like arguing over opinions on PETA is straying too much off the real topic at hand. Lets look at this regardless of who provided the video. It seems we can all agree this video is likely of RBM. Clearly there is some pretty serious husbandry problems at the location the video was shot.

Regardless RBM should not be pushing all the blame onto the poor employees at the bottom of the pole as it appears. To get this corrupt...to be using double-sided tape to catch escaped animals is a clear sign the company is corrupt from top to bottom. The company and its employees are not being looked over very well if things like this truly happen.

I hope over time this can be sorted out and RBM can shed some better light on what has happened within the company. People should also remember PETA was only going to show the bad things about RBM. Seeing many people have had good experiences with them I am going to assume it is not all starving animals stuck to tape.

 

[caffeinecynic]

My point was, and is, that this footage was likely shot by plant employees from PETA. There is no telling how much of this was sanctioned by Reptiles by Mack. Double-sided tape, for instance. Who's to say that was something that RbM told them to do? And not something they did and then recorded for the sake of the video? I do not at all put it past a PETA representative to fabricate a scenario inside a reptile facility in order to further their propaganda.

I'm not defending Reptiles by Mack. I've never bought from them, or animals from pet stores, and I don't intend to start. The fact that there was not more attention paid to their staff, from the top to the bottom, that this video was allowed to even be created suggests to me there is at the very least a managerial problem, and maybe much more.

My opinion is just that because this is PETA we're talking about, I don't know how much of this I believe was Reptiles by Mack and how much was created by people working at their establishment under PETA's employment - simply for the sake of this video. I think we're all aware that PETA is perfectly willing to sacrifice animals' safety and health to make their message have a bigger impact and because of that willingness, it is important to consider the source the message came from before you condemn the company completely.

I don't doubt there are quite a few things Reptiles by Mack could do to improve their habits, and I also don't doubt that this ugly spotlight on them will at least bring them some heat. I do look at anything provided by PETA with a grain of salt, because they're willing to do a lot of terrible things with little regard for the animals they're hurting, in order to send their message.

 

[thamnophis123]

Yep, exact same things the hog industry says about PETA etc every time they put out a video of large scale hog industry abuse. In fact, Iowa has passed a law that makes it illegal to record the abuse now!

Got an animal abuse problem? Dont fix it, make it illegal to record it!

Who's to say that was something that RbM told them to do? And not something they did and then recorded for the sake of the video? I do not at all put it past a PETA representative to fabricate a scenario inside a reptile facility in order to further their propaganda.

 

[BeauBoi]

Here's the funny thing from my perspective ... I live in the heart of pig country. We torture and slaughter 40 million pigs each and every year. When organizations like PETA come in and secretly video the animal abuse in the hog industry, we hear the animal ag respond with many of the exact same claims Rich came out with. Here's the truth - there is terrible abuse in any large scale animal "agriculture" - no economic way around it.
Curiousity Question: Are you a vegan? Are you advocating that all Americans become vegan?
Do you care? Then rathe than attack PETA et al, and whine about their tactics, change your consumer habits. Stop supporting big box pet stores, stop eating industrial pork.

Attacking the messenger is weak. We can accept the ugly reality they expose and make informed consumer decisions in response.[/QUOTE

It isn't attacking the messenger to advise caution in response to them, ESPECIALLY when they have proven in the past that they lie, which PETA has proven time and again, We don't know if it wasn't the PETA "employees" themselves who maimed the animals videoed. Further, that video was spliced so many times that many of the animals may not have even been in the facility!

~Beau

 

[caffeinecynic]

As Beau mentioned, PETA has proven time and time again in their radical proclamations that they have absolutely no problem brutalizing animals, outright lying, and manipulating footage to suit their message. I do not know anything about the hog industry and have no interest in discussing it, but I will state outright that I know enough about PETA to know this is classic behavior for them - and because it is classic behavior, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

The fact of the matter is, PETA has done a lot of damage to their own image. Look up 'PETA lies' on Google. There's a flood of information on the subject.

 

[Hypancistrus]

As Beau mentioned, PETA has proven time and time again in their radical proclamations that they have absolutely no problem brutalizing animals, outright lying, and manipulating footage to suit their message. I do not know anything about the hog industry and have no interest in discussing it, but I will state outright that I know enough about PETA to know this is classic behavior for them - and because it is classic behavior, I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

The fact of the matter is, PETA has done a lot of damage to their own image. Look up 'PETA lies' on Google. There's a flood of information on the subject.

Well said.

 

[CwnAnnwn]

I was going to charge in here and really start to get heated put looks like Mr. Schronski and Ms. Hammonds already put out the fire.

Speaking of fire...

If a convicted arsonist comes into your living room holding a gas can, matches, and says, I think your garage is on fire, is it attacking the messenger to suspect him of something?

Attacking the messenger in a logical fallacy ONLY when the messenger is innocent of the act and only relating the act.

But peta is known for a lot of untrustworthy acts, before

I posted the link to show that when you want to create a hit piece against a company, you can take anything and make it look bad. Even PETA themselves.

 

[thamnophis123]

Well lets look ay our options here ...

On the one hand you could choose to believe an animal rights group went undercover at a facility housing many thousands of animals and secretly video taped the sick, diseased and dying ones - something that anyone who has spent time in the animal wholesale industry has seen many, many times ...

OR

You can choose to believe that the animal rights group ripped limbs off animals, injured them in ways that made them look like they were dying, created glue boards then stuck live, healthy animals on to them, deprived animals of water so they could then film them drinking, some how caused infections and stayed around long enough to film it developing, etc.

I know which scenario seems more likely to me. I suppose if you want to bad enough, you can choose to believe the highly unlikely one. Sorta like religion in that way I suppose.

 

[thamnophis123]

By the way, I dont know much about PETA. I googled as someone suggested but dont see anything but anti-PETA propaganda. I understand all too well that animal advocacy groups are routinly attacked by those who are gullible enough to believe the propoganda. But are there any actual facts, reported by actual reliable sources that show a pattern of abuse by PETA? I'd be glad to see it if there is ...

 

[Hypancistrus]

By the way, I dont know much about PETA. I googled as someone suggested but dont see anything but anti-PETA propaganda. I understand all too well that animal advocacy groups are routinly attacked by those who are gullible enough to believe the propoganda. But are there any actual facts, reported by actual reliable sources that show a pattern of abuse by PETA? I'd be glad to see it if there is ...

If you think for a minute that any "animal advocacy group" has your best interests as a pet owner in mind, then you are either stupid, or simply ignorant of the facts.

There are many, many proven articles about things PETA has done to shelter animals they allegedly were "adopting out," and they and the HSUS were INSTRUMENTAL in getting the python ban passed. They are out to END your hobby, however they need to do so... whatever gets in their way they have no issue taking out.

Here's a start.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/pets-shelter-euthanization-rate_n_6612490.html

 

[CwnAnnwn]

Well lets look ay our options here ...

On the one hand you could choose to believe an animal rights group went undercover at a facility housing many thousands of animals and secretly video taped the sick, diseased and dying ones - something that anyone who has spent time in the animal wholesale industry has seen many, many times ...

OR

You can choose to believe that the animal rights group ripped limbs off animals, injured them in ways that made them look like they were dying, created glue boards then stuck live, healthy animals on to them, deprived animals of water so they could then film them drinking, some how caused infections and stayed around long enough to film it developing, etc.

I know which scenario seems more likely to me. I suppose if you want to bad enough, you can choose to believe the highly unlikely one. Sorta like religion in that way I suppose.

You want to counter a logical fallacy by using a logical fallacy? What you just did is a logical fallacy called false dilemma.

If you can not honestly google peta lies and not get enough to be skeptical about what peta is willing to and not to do, then I can not help you.


Is it as bad as they have shown, maybe. The one reason I don't shop at large pet stores.

But PETA is not a good source for honest reviews in my opinion.