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Why not to buy "Captive Bred" GTP's from LLL Reptile

C

cyberfrog

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After buying this little Sorong at MARS from LLL I found out that they were not CBB babies as this one was sold to me, but farm raised imports I knew I was screwed. He only ate once on his own and tonight he died. Needless to say, I won't be buying any more animals from LLL.
3413DSCF0359-med.JPG
 
Was it that thin when you got it? How long have you had it for?

It is very rare to find true CBB babies for LLL's prices.
 
He wasn't that thin a couple of hours before he died. We have been force feeding him with a pinky pump for lack of any other options. I got it in September at MARS. Didn't think much of it because there were private breeders there with babies not much more than that. We paid $350 for him. Seigel sells the same locales for the same money, I should have bought from Ben.
 
Wow that sucks!

That Chondro looks emaciated. How old was it supposed to be? How lond did you have it? What did you pay? I have an LLL Chondro thats been doing well for months now.
 
Doesn't suprise me at all.. They are at every show in my area, and i've been going to them for quite a few years now.. Every show they never cease to amaze me.. They take out and let people HOLD tiny neonate chondros(bad news), sit completely emaciated, dieing Uromastyx and bearded dragons ontop of their flourecent light fixtures for show, and will say pretty much anything to make a buck. Most the time they have no idea what an animal IS, let alone how to care for it. They aren't the kind of people who should never sell chondros. Word to the wise, only buy chondros from breeders(as in the people who PRODUCED the animal, not just reselling them).. Siegal is better then most.. He has a good rep and nice animals, but they're still farmed and imported.
 
From what I understand it is hard to find anything CBB from them..awseom prices on supplies though...
-Matt Graybeal
 
What

If any symptoms was it showing? You said you had it since September. Did you take it to a vet and/or have a fecal done? if so, what were the results?
 
He never showed any symptoms whatsoever. He just wouldn't eat. He looked healthy and plump when I get him. I set him up per Greg Maxwells site using his design for a Neo GTP. HE defacated normally the one time he did eat and when we force fed him. He still drank and had normal looking urates even when not eating. I just got burned on a misrepresented animal which I found out shortly after I got him. I had no plan on seeing Scott Stahl just to throw another few hundred dollars away while I was in the process of being raped. Had I not known I was screwed early I certainly would have. This isn't a big poor me sympathy ploy, I know what I did and didn't do for the animal. I just want everyone else to see this when they type in LLL Reptile on the search bar.
 
Well you have my Sympathy

Having something like that happen sucks! I just asked those questions for my knowledge in the future. Im sure there are people on the forum know exactly where LLL gets their animals who could shed some light on buying practices of large operations like LLL. I also am sure LLL monitors this site and will shed some light on the matter themselves, unless they think the truth would hurt thier bottom line, in wich case thier actions (or lack there of) will speak louder than words.
 
Sorry Ophis, didn't mean to come off as rude. Just wanted it out there just in case. I know alot of people like to nitpick this and that, so I just wanted to make it known. In this case, however, I don't see many people running to LLL's defense.
 
Hey no problem

I have heard good and bad about them. I had good luck with them, but maybe it was just that, luck. I have heard people speculate as to thier buying practices and would like to hear from someone with inside knowledge or from the horses mouth.
 
I certainly hope you get a necropsy performed on him to find out why he died. Becoming that thin in such a short time as you say means parasites or a definite problem that could affect other animals you bring home.
 
That sucks

That sucks. Just curious I know Scott Stahl you were not meaning he was going to rip you off were you? He is an honest person that care's about the animals well being more than money.

I think I might of read your post wrong if so I'm sorry..

Tim Rash
www.nocturnal-creations.com
 
I have friends who have had both good and bad experiences with LLL...which seems normal for the business that they are in :retail/wholesale...I used to hear the same sort of complaints from people about Crutchfield, while every animal I ever purchase was what he told me it was...cheap and not so good, or expensive and of high quality.
You pay for what you get.

Perhaps they will make some sort of adjustment for this animal, but to be honest, there is a little bit of "caveat emptor" here...many of you on this thread go on and on about poor quality, etc, but then state a sentence later that you love the low prices. ?????

To me, the issue is just one of : Did they actually call it captive b/b, or just captive born ? If it was sold as b/b, and was not, a full refund is in order...if a wild caught or farm snake just happened to lay some eggs, then that is a roll of the dice for the purchaser.
 
my guess would be stress killed it...

You say it was fat and looked healthy when you bought it, but it only ate once on it's own. From my personal experience with a stubborn milk snake and a pinkie pump, I can tell you that force feeding with a pinkie pump is extremely stressful on a snake. I wouldn't be surprised if it got very stressed out from the forced feedings and it's immune system went downhill. I don't have chondros, but my understanding is that they get stressed just from handling!! Couple that with a pinkie pump being shoved down it's throat, I'm surprised it lived as long as it did.

As for it being sold as a c.b.b when you know for certain (do you?) that it was farm raised.....yeah, I'd say you have a legitimate beef with LLL. Just my opinion....

Scott Nellis
 
It isn't necessarily completely emaciated...the picture is of a dead snake...and anyone who hasn't had a dead hatchling should know...they flatten out almost unrecognizably.

I had a non-eater die this year...and it was NEVER emaciated looking...but it looked like a belt when I found it dead.

I would NEVER use a pinkie pump. I have taken reliable advice from a breeder who does a ton of work with non or stubborn feeders every year...she even takes them in from other people...and has a 90%-95% success rate with reabilitating them. She has had broken mouse bones puncture both esophagus AND vital organs after using one...which resulted in the death of the animal.

Good tip on LLL though...
I do know that Alex Hue at Alex Hue Reptiles captive breeds some gorgeous GTP's.
 
yep

Yeah, since my one bad experience of using a pinkie pump on a milksnake, I don't use them anymore. Alias47 is right....there are several different methods to get non-feeders to eat that are FAR less stressful to the snake. By the way, snakes can go 2-3 months without eating with NO ill effects. Neonates are good for at least 2 months. How soon after your chondro stopped eating did you try force feeding it? Did you ever try alternate food items.....frogs, lizards, etc.? Or just scenting with other food items? I watched a show that featured the Barkers and Tracy Barker was dipping dead rats into canned chicken broth to feed a stubborn python!! It worked!! Sometimes you just have to be creative.

Scott Nellis
 
First of all, I was not bashing Scott Stahl, he is a great vet, just expensive. I saw no need to pay him to tell me what I already knew. I bought the snake in the middle of September at MARS, brought it home and set it up. 3 weeks later it ate on it's own the first and last time, a live pinky. I tried every week after that with live, f/k, f/t, with no luck. I look in on him one morning in mid December and he is laying on the floor of the enclosure. I know this is bad. He still shows no interest whatsoever in food, so we see no choice but to pump him. We pumped him the first time the same day.He looked better, he defecated, stayed off the floor, but still wouldn't eat. We had to pump him again and 2 days after we pumped him the 2nd time he defecated then shortly after he died. I asked LLL specifically if the GTP's were captive bred and he said yes.
Adam
 
cyberfrog said:
First of all, I was not bashing Scott Stahl, he is a great vet, just expensive. I saw no need to pay him to tell me what I already knew. I bought the snake in the middle of September at MARS, brought it home and set it up. 3 weeks later it ate on it's own the first and last time, a live pinky. I tried every week after that with live, f/k, f/t, with no luck. I look in on him one morning in mid December and he is laying on the floor of the enclosure. I know this is bad. He still shows no interest whatsoever in food, so we see no choice but to pump him. We pumped him the first time the same day.He looked better, he defecated, stayed off the floor, but still wouldn't eat. We had to pump him again and 2 days after we pumped him the 2nd time he defecated then shortly after he died. I asked LLL specifically if the GTP's were captive bred and he said yes.
Adam
Click to expand...
First thing, "captive bred" in the world of chondros is guaranteed to mean a farmed import. You may think this is misleading, but it's just a fact and you have to make the distinction between that and true "captive bred and born" which technically applies also.
I find it funny that alot of the industry has drawn this line with farmed animals that the are "CB" and not "CBB", leaving the CBB distinction to local breeders.
The bottom line is that you have to ask where it came from. Is it an import? Was it born in the U.S.? Was the dam WC gravid? It's sad, but you will get burned on a chondro purchase more than any other snake. This doesn't mean that the seller lied. It just means you didn't ask the right questions.

I would bet your snake had a parasite of some type and the pump did stress it to death. It sucks, no two ways about it. I have lost one farmed and one import of unknown status in the last 2 years. The first one was sold honestly as a CB "farmed" import. However, it was also sold as healthy, which it turned out not to be and was confirmed by necropsy. I do have one that I saved and is doing quite well after some close calls and treatment.
 
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