Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

[pdragon]

Are you takling about A-5 on your availability page?

Josh

 

[witblits]

Josh, yes A5. Here he is. He is turning more orange by the day. Here he is at around 100 grams.

 

[witblits]

I will post a photo of our other 'red' baby. He was the first one that hatced red. The others all hatched grey/white and turned orange later on.

 

[pdragon]

Thanks Jaques for the pic. He still looks mostly grey/brown with some orange around the sides/face, but he is not full bodied orange. Do his normal, non-witblit siblings have orange color?

Josh

 

[pdragon]

I would think witblits would be very close to same shade of color as their "normal" siblings, and have same saturation if they could be made into solid colors. Transluscents lack white color, but they will take on pretty much the same colors as their siblings. Same with hypomelanistics and their "normal" siblings.

They could be low expression witblits where some of the color is popping through.

 

[pdragon]

Do you see less color on your whiter witblits than the grey/brown ones?

Josh

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

calling that an orange dragon is a bit of a stretch. If the red you claim to have is as red as this is orange then i doubt you are going to get color in these in anyones lifetime. If there are already "witsblitz" being produced from outcrossed hets like claimed then there should already be more color in them than there is. That is if ,in fact you can even breed color in them. Time will tell but with as many of this morph as are being produced there should already be animals with more varying color if it is possible. I have heard from alot of folks there are serious issues with the vigor in this morph.Maybe they are genetically weak and need to be crossed out more with other dragons and then crossed back to each other. I know with some of the mutations I personally originated in other herps I took the time to produce only hets for 2 years then bred only het to "unrelated" het to produce only 25% visuals it takes years longer but you don't have the issues if it is done the right way the first time. When you are the origin of a new morph it is your responsibility to ethically move forward and take the time to do it right. Something I feel isn't being done here. I know the motivation to make money is strong but by doing it right the result is more fruitfull. Sorry Jaques it just seems to me this is the case and everytime someone comes up with something new you jump on it with a coy "negativity" you very obviously see these other morphs as a threat because you are constantly bashing them while trying to promote your own product as independent and superior.You just do it in a very subtle way. The people you are selling to are doing more to strengthen your morph than you are. That is irresponsible,and i would think that with this being your project you would want to be the leader. Just my opinions and observations. But this is a classic example of why sometimes other people have better success with animals than the first person to produce them. it's clouded judgement.

 

[witblits]

Ahh these are the comments I like. Jay I will correct you shortly. Let me answrs Josh's questions first.

"Thanks Jaques for the pic. He still looks mostly grey/brown with some orange around the sides/face, but he is not full bodied orange. Do his normal, non-witblit siblings have orange color?

Josh"

He is in fact more of an yellow-ish colour with the orange coming through on the sides and head. His spikes go snow white. He was born 'normal' (normal for the average Witblits) in colour but changed (ie turning orange) quite a bit. And he still does. Definately not full bodied orange! It will be some time before Witblits is full bodied red/yellow/orange... Yes his siblings (all Witblits hets) do have some orange colour. But not all of them Some have some orange, others yellow, others normal. This male (A5) is from a German Giant female. She has colours of orange and yellow in her. That is likely where the offspring gets their colour from as their father is quite pale yellow with mild orange around the eyes and so.

"I would think witblits would be very close to same shade of color as their "normal" siblings, and have same saturation if they could be made into solid colors. Transluscents lack white color, but they will take on pretty much the same colors as their siblings. Same with hypomelanistics and their "normal" siblings.

They could be low expression witblits where some of the color is popping through."

This seems to be the case as there are never one Witblits or one het that is remarkably more coloured than the rest. Remember colour is a polygenis trait and it will take some time to produce pure red Witblits (or yellow/orange etc). It will be quicker if one breeds a solid red dragon to a Witblits but unfortunately I don't have solid red dragons...

"Do you see less color on your whiter witblits than the grey/brown ones?

Josh"

I think so yes. The whiter they are the less colour they seems to gain with age. The more yellow ones (yellow seems to be the average colour for Witblits) are more likely to develop orange around the face. A5 is the first Witblits to turn orange along its flanks. There might be others that was sold at an early age that have also turned out more colourful. I will put some effort into getting photos from buyers to see what they turned out.

 

[witblits]

btmexotics/Jay

I think you should make sure of the facts before latching out like this. Also knowing the situation around beardeds in SA and the history of them might give you some clarity. Reading through the thread might help. I am going to answer you question/statement one by one and if possible with some quotes from the past. My answers aren't necessarily there to correct you but to also explain to those that don't know.

"calling that an orange dragon is a bit of a stretch. If the red you claim to have is as red as this is orange then i doubt you are going to get color in these in anyones lifetime."

If you compare Witblits to say Sandfires for example, then yes they aren't as orange. But I am comparing apples to apples and A5 is one of the most orange Witblits yet so we can call him an orange Witblits. I have also never said he was solid orange... As said here: "He is turning more orange by the day"
As for the red baby. I said: "I will post a photo of our other 'red' baby." Please note the red is in ' '.

"If there are already "witsblitz" being produced from outcrossed hets like claimed then there should already be more color in them than there is. That is if ,in fact you can even breed color in them."

Yes the claims are true. I have produced several outcrossed Witblits and so has one breeder in USA and two in Europe. But you are wrong about the more colour in them. It depends what dragons you use to outcross them. If you outcross them with a normal (wild type) dragon then the offspring won't (and can't) be more colourful... Colour is a polygenic trait it takes several generations to produce colourfull dragons. None of the "high-end" dragons were produced in one or two generations! My opinion (and the limited time we have spent on it) is that Witblits would take on colour and it will be possible to produce a solid white, yellow, orange, red or black dragon from them. It will take time! Yellow would likely be the first and easiest to do as the average Witblits tend to have yellow colouring.

"Time will tell but with as many of this morph as are being produced there should already be animals with more varying color if it is possible."

I don't know where you get your facts from but there aren't many Witblits being produced!

"I have heard from alot of folks there are serious issues with the vigor in this morph."

Once again i don't know who these "alot" are that you are talking about since there are only about 10 owners/breeders of Witblits... Alot you say? Vigour. I am guessing you have somewhere heard the term 'hybrid vigour'. This basically means that a crossbred animal does better than a purebred. For example in dogs and cattle. Whether this term holds value in dragons is debatable but there is no doubt that 'outcrossed' animals are more vigourous in every sense of the word than 'inbred' animals. So what do you mean problems with the vigour? Ar you refering to fertility? Their growth? Size? It is well known that the Witblits is a slow grower and that they don't reach the size that the average bearded dragon in the States does. This is not as a result of vigor but due to our selection over the past decade for smaller more 'economic' dragons. We selected for smaller dragons that ate less due to the shortage of available feeder insects in South Africa. This has changed over the past 4 years and we are lucky to now have a few feeders commercially available. It took about 5 generations to get them small. It will take at least 5 to get them big again!

"Maybe they are genetically weak and need to be crossed out more with other dragons and then crossed back to each other. I know with some of the mutations I personally originated in other herps I took the time to produce only hets for 2 years then bred only het to "unrelated" het to produce only 25% visuals it takes years longer but you don't have the issues if it is done the right way the first time."

We have outcrossed and still do (outcrossing is something that is always ongoing in a breeding program) and that is the reason why we are producing many more hets than 'purebred' Witblits.

"When you are the origin of a new morph it is your responsibility to ethically move forward and take the time to do it right. Something I feel isn't being done here."

You are feeling wrong.

"I know the motivation to make money is strong but by doing it right the result is more fruitfull."

Always nice to make money from something you like. In fact in is the only way to be sustainable. You have never sent me an email or enquiry so you wouldn't know but I tell the clients/buyers that I supply them with the solid Witblits. It is up to them to decide which projects they wan't to undertake with them. If I bred pure white Witblits and solid red, yellow, orange Witblits and hypo Witblits and leatherback Witblits and trans Witblits what would be left to breed. People would not invest in the morph as they have been expended.

"Sorry Jaques it just seems to me this is the case and everytime someone comes up with something new you jump on it with a coy "negativity" you very obviously see these other morphs as a threat because you are constantly bashing them while trying to promote your own product as independent and superior.You just do it in a very subtle way."

I strongly disagree with you! There are only three patternless morphs. Witblits, Silverbacks and Zeros. All of them have their pros and cons. Silverbacks seems to be the oldest patternless morph thus likely also the most 'vigourous'. But they don't hatch truly patternless. The Zeros are relatively new and we don't know much about them. A client of mine from Germany wanted to buy the two Zeros from someone. He sent me pics of them and asked if the were Witblits. They had a few traces of pattern and I told him no they aren't Witblits as all Witblits babies hatch 100&% patternless. That is the only 'negative ' comment I have ever made about them. And I don't think it is negative. I hope that Josh finds it positive as he has invested a bit of money in them and a surprise like that could shock him... This was some of my comments to Josh on them: "They are looking great!" and "They have turned out exceptional!" In all reality Josh is the only person that can actually comment on all three animals.

"The people you are selling to are doing more to strengthen your morph than you are. That is irresponsible,and i would think that with this being your project you would want to be the leader."

Yes they are doing a great job. And that is why they ask 5000 euros a dragon and 2000 for a het! I don't think it is irresponsible. If I had access to stronger morphs then I could do more i suppose. But I don't. So I can't. My clients know what they buy and most are happy. They enjoy the work they put into their Witblits projects.

Just my opinions and observations. But this is a classic example of why sometimes other people have better success with animals than the first person to produce them. it's clouded judgement.

You are entitled to your own opinions right.

Hope this clears it up a bit.

Goodbye

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Well Jaques, thanks for the corrections. Fisrt off let me tell you that I am fully qualified to comment on this situation. I am an extremelly prolific breeder of reptiles and amphibians. I will most likely go down in history as one of the most innovative breeders of all time.I will not go down my list of successes but I can assure you i have bred more species of reptile and amphibian than probably anyone on the planet. I am very familiar with your anmals and their history. Also I am the originator of multiple morphs of reptile/amphibian from the first axanthis giant day gecko,first leucistic ribbed newt,and multple new morph of axolotl, just to name a few. I know genetics and I know what it takes to produce a quality product. I also know what it takes to be responsible for quality control of a new mutation.

First. Your dragon is not orange.Just because it is more orange than a plain witzblits does not make it orange.

Second.I never said alot of witsblits have been produced. I said that with as many have been crossed out there should be more color in them if they are capable of taking color. I stand by my statement.

I am not talking about hybrid vigour.This is a rediculous term. I am refering to the fact that a lot of your animals waste away and die in the hands of expert bearded dragon keepers. I have experienced these issues with other new mutations and it is the direct result of you letting your animals go before you have proactively corrected the issues before releasing a low quality aimal to the public.

Vigor? You state that in S.A. that your animals are smaller and grow slower. I don't know how it is there but in the rest of the world we call those animals runts. Def. not a good foundation for a breeding project. Instead of selling your runts to other countries to start making the big bucks,maybe you should have taken some time to import strong animals to cross out your witzblits dragons to so you could offer animals to the rest of the world that were up to the international standards for healthy dragons,you know,not runts.

I personally am not impressed by the fact that you always talk about money. It seems to be something you are consumed with. I think it is great to make a good living breeding animals. I know I do,so I am not opposed to it.I am howvever, opposed to doing it irresponsibly and unethically.

Your constant defensive posturing only reinforces my belifs about you ,your dragons and your breeding ethics.

-Jay

 

[witblits]

Jay. Since you are the best I guess you are right. I will thus no longer argue with you. You know everything. Except maybe for the fact that South Africa does not permit import of bearded dragons. So now you know everything.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Thank you. I do know this. If you can't import good dragons into South Africa maybe you shouldn't export genetically inferior runts out. Just out of curiosity, on your site you say

"They are also almost impossible to import from other countries. Thus our variety of dragons are limited. The more ‘exotic’ morphs like leatherbacks, hypos, leucistics, translucents etc are very rare in SA. 99% of all dragons in SA are normal ‘wild-type’ dragons"

So which is it.Are they almost impossible or impossible? You also say one of your projects is leatherback witsblitz. How can that be? Someone must have imported dragons fairly recently because in reality leatherbacks aren't that old of a mutation. It is more likely that you are just further inbreeding your own animals to produce more witsblitz faster so you can squeeze every dollar you can out of them before the morph slams into a brick wall and won't produce for you. I am just offering you some advice.Out cross your animals before it is to late.It is easier to prevent problems than to backpeddle to repair them.Partner up with someone out of S.A. so you can progress with other bloodlines.You will make more money and last longer.

Your over-reaction to valid criticism is typical. I don't need to know everything to know that you prematurely offered your morph to the public and that your animals are ,as you described, undersized,slow growing runts. Your animals are riddled with issues and alot of them have failed to thrive. You know this is true,you just won't admit it in public.

Would love to see this "red" patternless.When are you posting pictures?

 

[witblits]

I wanted to just ignore you but you give me no option. "Your animals are riddled with issues and alot of them have failed to thrive."

We have sold Witblits to 8 clients thus far. Of these only one client had some issues with them. So where do you get your info from that these animals are runts!? Your judgement is skewed.

I will answer your questions though.

It is impossible to import dragons to SA! The only way to get some into the country is to smuggle them. I refrain from such illegal activities! There are a couple of good dragons around,. They are hard to come buy. There is no doubt that these dragons were smuggled at some stage.

I have a female Witblits with reduced scales. I am hoping to pair her with a leatherback someday and thus it is a project I want to pursue yes. But I know there will be leatherback Witblits in Europe long before I succeed.

If your statements of inbreeding holds true then I should have had 'leatherbacks' a long time ago because I could just have bred her offspring together... Not our plan.

Jay so since you have the answers to all the questions please answer this. This is your statement. If you make such statements you must hold by it. So answer me now because I am unaware of these issues! What do you mean by this: "Your animals are riddled with issues and alot of them have failed to thrive." What are the issues? How many have not thrived?

 

[pdragon]

Josh.

 

[pdragon]

"So answer me now because I am unaware of these issues! What do you mean by this: "Your animals are riddled with issues and alot of them have failed to thrive." What are the issues? How many have not thrived?"


The pic above is the answer to this question.

Josh

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

I know of people in 2 countries who have had problems with these animals.

You yourself said they were slow growing and smaller than other dragons! Most of us call those runts.

You said one of your projects was a leatherback.Not me. That doesn't include animals in Europe that are someone elses project. You said it. Also calling a reduced scale a leatherback is as much a stretch as calling that other dragon a patternless orange. Still waiting to see that patternless red.

Also it is possible to import dragons to S.A. you just don't know the protocol.

 

[hhmoore]

Warning: This is not the BOI

In just a quick glance, I've seen a couple of comments that cross the line that makes them "BOI relevant posts outside of the BOI" (an infraction). I don't have the time to devote to figuring out who started what, so I'm giving everybody involved a chance to get out of this without incurring a single infraction. Just keep future posts appropriate to a discussion area, and leave BOI type comments out of this thread.
If that can't be done, I'll have no choice but to come back and address each post individually.

 

[mikepanzarella]

all of the wilblits ive seen for sale on her website,facebook,and pictures josh provided all look fat and healthy
i dont see a big problem with 1 out of 8 people having problems (dont know how many dragons) figure thats about 10-15% with new morphs you have to account for loss as long as she made right by refunding or replacing (as long as the customer was happy) then there is not problem
with proven recessive traits we still have problems look at trans
as far as thriving i do think josh's pic covers that
sorry for the long run on in a rush to get ready for work

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

The animal in that picture is dead.Also it is suffering from a skin problem in the pic. The picture does not show a healthy dragon it shows an unhealthy one.re-read the posts.you are misunderstanding. the picture wasn't posted by Josh for the reasons you are thinking. I have seen witzblits in person.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Mike, Jaques is a man. refunds/replacements were not given. these are $5000.00 dragons.