Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

hhmoore I will move to the boi i guess if i need to say anything else.My apologies.I wasn't aware this was boi material since it is a discussion about animal health and not a business or monitary complaint or someone getting ripped off.It is really a discussion about husbandry and breeding.not a bad business deal or a bad guy/good guy thread.

 

[jmp745]

I'm also kind of confused about the warnings. I see things getting a little heated here, but its all about a new morph, its health, the reasons it might not be healthy, and its all in a thread about the morph. People aren't aloud to talk about such things?

 

[witblits]

Jay you have not answered my questions: "Your animals are riddled with issues and alot of them have failed to thrive." What are the issues? How many have not thrived?

 

[witblits]

Size is not the issue here. The breeders in Europe is quite happy with their size. Seems the Americans prefer bigger beardeds. Wild beardeds are much smaller than the US stock and they aren't runts. It is called natural selection! So small Witblits realy isn't the issue. So tell me, what is their issues?
I am going to start the list here. Since they are riddled with issues I am sure you should be able to list at least five. I will start the list, and for 'completeness sake' I'll add size to the list...

THE WITBLITS DRAGONS RIDDLED WITH PROBLEMS LIST
1) Adult weight of under 500 gram
2) slow growing
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)

Once we get to ten reasons (which I think is a fair amount for the term riddled) then I will stop the Witblits project!

 

[witblits]

Jay. Please take your time reading.

This is from our website:
"Our future projects will be:

1) blizzard white patternless dragons

2) leatherback witblits dragons

3) super orange and red patternless dragons

4) solid black bearded dragons"

Note the word FUTURE in there. This is what we would like to take on somewhere in the future. I have never marketed or called any of our dragons leatherback. That is why I said reduced scales. I never called it a leatherback.

 

[jmp745]

josh, you should tell us more about that dragon you posted the picture of. I've seen that picture before. I thought it was a either a silverback (because I've seen the picture of your silver with smaller brown spots), or some kinda paradox witblit (sense you seem to produce a lotta parodox). They say a picture speaks a thousands words, but that doesn't mean a few words about the picture wouldn't help

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

wasting away

death

infertility

skin problems(like Josh's picture)

and so on...

let it go man. You said future projects include leatherback,then you said you can't get leatherbacks because imports aren't allowed. You also said you won't participate in such actions as smuggling but I guess you don't have a problem buying offspring from smuggled animals. it's really the same thing.

anyway I don't really care.I just know there are issues and charging $5000.00 for animals that grow slow and have stunted growth is outrageous. your reaction really says it all.

JMP i think the posting of a witsblits with serious skin issues by Josh that is now dead speaks plenty. i don't really want to push the envelope with the mods so I don't know what I can or can't say without getting into trouble. I saw the first witzblits that came into the U.S. they are now dead.Other folks animals are dead.Others after being babied to get them to adulthood won't breed. These are animals in the care of the most highly regarded dragon keepers in the world so you know it is not husbandry related.

 

[bfrankie]

Mr O'dell, how many times have you actually out crossed this new morph? or is this the first generation?

 

[jmp745]

wasting away

death

infertility

skin problems(like Josh's picture)

and so on...

let it go man. You said future projects include leatherback,then you said you can't get leatherbacks because imports aren't allowed. You also said you won't participate in such actions as smuggling but I guess you don't have a problem buying offspring from smuggled animals. it's really the same thing.

anyway I don't really care.I just know there are issues and charging $5000.00 for animals that grow slow and have stunted growth is outrageous. your reaction really says it all.

JMP i think the posting of a witsblits with serious skin issues by Josh that is now dead speaks plenty. i don't really want to push the envelope with the mods so I don't know what I can or can't say without getting into trouble. I saw the first witzblits that came into the U.S. they are now dead.Other folks animals are dead.Others after being babied to get them to adulthood won't breed. These are animals in the care of the most highly regarded dragon keepers in the world so you know it is not husbandry related.

screw that! I've been following this morph from the beginning(online observations only), and thought much about dropping thousands to buy one. If the mod doesn't like this thread, he shouldn't buy one. Seriously. If the morph is weak, it should be said. Sorry fuana, but people need to know whats what! It was a ridiculous warning in imo. What I really want to know is, has anyone other than Jacques actually hatched a witblit out of an egg? I mean anyone? Anywhere? on the planet?

 

[jmp745]

btw, Jay, after some pms with Jacques tonight is sounds like he wants to sue you for slander. hahahaha

 

[Cache Reptiles]

I believe the first witblits have just been hatched outside of SA today- in Italy by a guy named Fernando Morfogenesi. From what I've seen of them on facebook, the breeding was a triple het (trans, hypo, and witblits) to another triple het. Could possibly be the first hypo-trans-witblits if he has good odds with this clutch!

 

[hhmoore]

If the mod doesn't like this thread, he shouldn't buy one. Seriously. If the morph is weak, it should be said. Sorry fuana, but people need to know whats what! It was a ridiculous warning in imo.

The warning I posted had nothing to do with my feelings about the topic of this thread, or any interest that I may (or may not) have in these animals. It was strictly a matter of a few posts crossing what can sometimes be a fine line.
Talk about the morph, husbandry, and breeding; be open about problems..that's all fair game. Some topics just require a bit of finesse to stay on the discussion side of the line. Accusations about animals failing to thrive, dying, being excessively inbred, etc, fall into that category. Referencing others that have had negative experiences pretty much falls on the BOI side of the line...but it could probably be pulled off with a little effort.

Sorry you think it was a ridiculous warning; but it was based on the policies of this site. My thanks to those that were more respectful of it...and, hopefully, my explanation will enable the discussion to continue with just a bit of extra consideration when choosing an approach or phrasing.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

I believe the first witblits have just been hatched outside of SA today- in Italy by a guy named Fernando Morfogenesi. From what I've seen of them on facebook, the breeding was a triple het (trans, hypo, and witblits) to another triple het. Could possibly be the first hypo-trans-witblits if he has good odds with this clutch!

If true(pics have not been posted) it would be the first. Even Fernando states they are from triple hets(het x het) produced by Alessandro(italian leatherback creator) who's homozygous witsblitz did not fare well. .You will have to use a translater. It is not a secret, it is common knowledge to high level breeders. The future of this morph is in the hands of people who have hets produced by dragons outside of South Africa. Really the success will be(as you see in Italy) with breeding outbred het to outbred het. That 25% of witsblitz being produce and their possible het siblings are the future for this morph.They will be more geneticaly diverse and have much stronger animals with better results.

 

[jmp745]

I believe the first witblits have just been hatched outside of SA today- in Italy by a guy named Fernando Morfogenesi. From what I've seen of them on facebook, the breeding was a triple het (trans, hypo, and witblits) to another triple het. Could possibly be the first hypo-trans-witblits if he has good odds with this clutch!

Thats funny, because I've been stalking his facebook page sense he made a comment on a picture on either josh or corkies photo(cant recall which or what photo) about having tripple het to tripple het eggs cooking. hehehe But I dont see where he posted anything about them hatching.

He also has a picture of some white babies that look like trans that hatched in australia. Translated the wording with the pic and it said they have red/whit eyes. Kinda curious whats going on there.

 

[Cache Reptiles]

Thats funny, because I've been stalking his facebook page sense he made a comment on a picture on either josh or corkies photo(cant recall which or what photo) about having tripple het to tripple het eggs cooking. hehehe But I dont see where he posted anything about them hatching.

Check his facebook again- he just posted pictures this morning!!

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Yes he did. Congrats to him,and mostly to Alessandro. The morph has a bright future now that animals are being produced from het to het outcrossed parents. Not only will these animals in Europe be much stronger and genetically more diverse,they won't have to be exported from South Africa anymore. The U.S. will be going strong as well soon and quickly after that,Japan. The great thing is these animals will be better,more affordable and easier to obtain.Because it is alot cheaper and smarter to import/export between U.S.,japan,and the European Union because more animals(numbers&species) can be packed in the box to ease the shipping cost. But like I said it really is a non issue because I am certain no imports will be necessary as they will all be available without the need for exportation/importation.

 

[witblits]

First of congratulations to Fernando!

(this is a long reply and most of you will just skip through it. i am hoping Jay reads it...)

This is a good discussion. Although a bit fiery it is still good. Please mods at this stage I think all comment is fair so do not block it. (in the same breath I must say that here in SA Jay would have been sued already for his comments). I am going to pull some quotes from the past in order to enforce my statement that WITBLITS IS NOT RIDDLED WITH PROBLEMS. I am hoping Jay/btm can do the same.

Jmp you are a funny man!

Jay I am still waiting for solid evidence of your absurd statements. You have made these accusations that Witblits is riddled with problems. I would like to know what these problems are? Because as I said I know of no problems that are linked with the morph. The only problems (and these really are relative as some like you regard it as a big issue and others don't) then maybe are that they grow slower and don't reach a massive adult size.

"Other folks animals are dead" This is untrue. Please PM me the details of 'these other folks' you keep on talking about. I’m guessing you are shy to mention their names since you keep bringing it up but don't mention names. If you make these comments you must be able to prove it. I am sure I would have heard from the buyers if their dragons died. Only 8 people have bought Witblits from us in the past few years. They would have complained. Trust me.

The only person that lost Witblits is Josh. He bought three males from me very early on in the project. He was the only person who we sold to in our first year of hatching Witblits. He bought animals from the original breeding pair (Kahlua and Rum).

He bought them in from us in May 2009. On 22 Dec this was Josh's exact words after asking him how the Witblits was doing: "Your dragons are doing very well. Take care and happy holidays, Josh"
Jay that is 7 months later and no issues. No reasonable man can guarantee live animals for longer than that!

On 10 May 2010 (yes a full year later!) Josh said: "The dragons are doing well. The witblits are a little bit slow growing but steady. I think that two of the male witblits are blind in one eye. They use one side of their head too see and catch food. These things are to be expected with new morphs. I think after some outcrossing, they will be in the right direction. I bred two of the male witblits so far, and the yellow male you sent extra. Got babies already from the yellow male, the witblits babies should hatch in about a month or so."
So after a year he thought that they might be blind. This I cannot argue with as only he would know. Perhaps if these dragons wasted away then the blindness was the cause? Only a veterinarian would be able to tell. The reasons for blindness are endless and the problem is unlikely morph related. Josh also thought they grow slow. This he knew would be the case as i told him all these things over the phone long before he bought them in 2009.

Josh in June 2010: " Have you seen any black spotting on your witblits dragons? One of them i got from you is starting to develop clusters and spots of jet black pigment only on the top part of his body. I originally thought he had a fungus but i would have seen it on his belly too. The silverback also has a black spot on his back that has been there since I got him. I will send you some pics later next week. Pretty weird stuff."
So almost a year and a half after he bought them from me he noticed a black spot on the Witblits. But also on the Silverback. The dragon in his last post on this thread is the dragon he was referring to. The cause of these 'spots' could be anything; from infection, cancer, NORMAL pigment in abnormal places. Josh sent me a pic of the dragon early on in the course of this 'problem'. Just a while after that I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION! Obviously a dark spot on a pale dragons appears abnormal but in reality the 'problem' was normal. Whether the spot on our dragon was in fact the same lesion as the one on Josh's will never be known.

5 Jul 2010: "Hi, I just hatched a clutch from one of your witblits males(spotted one). All the babies are normal(except half are leatherback)." So the 'sick' spotted male still reproduced. Guys a sick animal cannot reproduce. Fertility is one of the first things to go down the drain with sick animals. This animal clearly was not sick. Not saying he didn't have a 'problem'.

14 Sep 2010: "I may scratch the whole witblits project all together and focus on the silverback line. I have lost 2 out of the 3 witblits. They get to sub-adult size, then dramatically lose weight, then respiratory problems start to take over. The last one is starting to look thin."
Now this came to me as a real shock. After all the good statements from Josh and how well they were breeding I couldn't believe this.

So it seems that two of the three Witblits that Josh bought from us did die! One with the skin 'problem' and one with respiratory problems. Neither of these two problems can be linked to the Witblits morph per se. Any dragon could succumb to respiratory problems.

It is highly unlikely that the problems (and bad luck) that Josh experienced had anything to do with bad husbandry as he is an experienced keeper. I think it was purely bad luck. He never asked for a refund as I guess he know it wasn't my fault. He could have bad mouthed the morph and blamed it on the breeder (me) but never did. This is why he is respected by many! Unlike you Jay who comments on things they really don't have a clue about.

I am hoping he (Josh) comments here so this could be settled forever.

The only other complaints I had from breeders was from Alessandro in Italy and from Alex and Ette in Germany. They said that they had problems with internal parasites in the Witblits.
I can not disagree with them as this is will most likely be true. Bearded dragons carry many different species of parasites. Normally these would not be a problem. But when one moves a dragon from the Southern to Northern hemisphere the dragon certainly experiences massive stress. Stress lowers immunity and thus parasites are able to 'take over'. After deworming their Witblits they had no further problems. So once again this 'problem' isn't one of only Witblits.
So after this we can add some to our list...

THE WITBLITS DRAGONS RIDDLED WITH PROBLEMS LIST
1) Adult weight of under 500 gram – not really a problem except in USA
2) slow growing – what is the rush?
3) blindness – wasn’t sure if they were actually blind
4) skin pigmentation – perhaps a true problem?
5) lung problems – not morph specific
6) wasting away – after any disease this will happen...
7) worms – not a morphs problem
8)
9)
10)
Btm also mentioned “death and infertility”
Neither of these can go on the list as death is inevitable and they are not infertile.

Jay you really need to rethink your views on Witblits and inbreeding and outcrossing. For example: the Witblits that Fernando just hatched are no more outcrossed than the ones we sold to several breeders in America this year. Just because their parents are called 'het hypo het trans het witblits het etc' doens't mean they are more outcrossed than 'german giant het witblits'.

Just a last statement. Jay (and all the other that has mentioned it) I am not in it for the money. I am in a good profession where my work pays me enough to live of. I am not getting rich from breeding dragons. The cost of feeders in SA is extremely expensive and in all reality it is impossible to get rich our of reptiles. I have a passion for breeding animals and this is why I do it. We donate a fair amount of our income to conservation (WWF, EWT) including reptile conservation (Blue Iguana, Cordylus).
The big money in South Africa does not lie in reptiles. We have big animals to breed! All of you know Africa is known for its wildlife. Well the breeding of colour varieties in these species are big over here. A normal blue wildebeest will cost around R6000 (750$) whereas the golden 'morph' reaches over R1mil (125000$)!!!!. For those of you interested in breeding 'exotic' coloured animals and not just reptiles have a look at it. There are some good info on the internet. I have a few of these going on the side so PM if you need more info. Google 'golden wildebeest', 'golden oryx/gemsbuck', 'copper springbuck', 'white eland'. There are even piebald type Eland emerging now...

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

7 out of 10 on your list of issues? good excuses. when you are selling 5000 dollar animals that can lay 100 plus eggs a year you are breeding for money.I am not against making money on animals,it's how I make my living and have for many years.i am agianst unethical breeding for just money. You are very aware of the issue I reference you just posted a bunch of emails corroborating my statements. Also you keep saying all this stuff about reptile money in S.A. but that doesn't apply when you are exporting all of your product to customers outside of your country does it?You are too consumed by money.

Death is inevitable? Wow that is a great selling point. I am sorry your dragon that is known to live a very long life in captivity died in less than two years. but death happens eventually.

sorry the three witblitz you bought from me(10grand) all died bad luck ,i guess.oh well.

I don't know why you are sticking up for Josh. You should know that he is one of my best friends. He is too nice.As are the other folks. the reason noone calls you out is because you are not going to matter soon and in business you take the good with the bad and move on.

The reason Josh is liked is because he is an ethical breeder who produces incredible animals who's quality is second to none.

I know nothing? you should do your research about me my friend.Just because i live a private life and you have never heard of me means nothing. Ask your friend Josh if I know what I am talking about.

Like i said before it is a moot point as the need for South African exports of witsblitz is pretty much over.

You should be ashamed of yourself.You said there were no problems and there very clearly are and you are aware of them.You just admitted you were aware when you posted josh's emails.

Slander?I don't think so.Everything I said is true. Sued in south africa for speaking the truth? I am nt the liar here you have been denying knowledge of any problems with this morph and all the time you were vigorously defending yourself,and flying off the handle at me,when you knew exactly what I was talking about.read your latest post.

good day

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

not going to get rich off dragons?you have a great profession if you think making $5000 a head on beardeds isn't making money. If this is the case why not sell witsblitz for $200? why $5000.00 each? man crickets must cost a fortune in South Africa.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Jaques, these are quotes from your post directly from emails with Josh. it sounds alot like serious problems to me.

On 10 May 2010 (yes a full year later!) Josh said: "The dragons are doing well. The witblits are a little bit slow growing but steady. I think that two of the male witblits are blind in one eye. They use one side of their head too see and catch food. These things are to be expected with new morphs. I think after some outcrossing, they will be in the right direction. I bred two of the male witblits so far, and the yellow male you sent extra. Got babies already from the yellow male, the witblits babies should hatch in about a month or so."
So after a year he thought that they might be blind. This I cannot argue with as only he would know. Perhaps if these dragons wasted away then the blindness was the cause? Only a veterinarian would be able to tell. The reasons for blindness are endless and the problem is unlikely morph related. Josh also thought they grow slow. This he knew would be the case as i told him all these things over the phone long before he bought them in 2009.

Josh in June 2010: " Have you seen any black spotting on your witblits dragons? One of them i got from you is starting to develop clusters and spots of jet black pigment only on the top part of his body. I originally thought he had a fungus but i would have seen it on his belly too. The silverback also has a black spot on his back that has been there since I got him. I will send you some pics later next week. Pretty weird stuff."
So almost a year and a half after he bought them from me he noticed a black spot on the Witblits. But also on the Silverback. The dragon in his last post on this thread is the dragon he was referring to. The cause of these 'spots' could be anything; from infection, cancer, NORMAL pigment in abnormal places. Josh sent me a pic of the dragon early on in the course of this 'problem'. Just a while after that I noticed a small spot in one of our juveniles. For the fear of it being something lethal I euthanized the dragon and sent the lesion to the pathologists. The report came back as NORMAL PIGMENTATION! Obviously a dark spot on a pale dragons appears abnormal but in reality the 'problem' was normal. Whether the spot on our dragon was in fact the same lesion as the one on Josh's will never be known.

5 Jul 2010: "Hi, I just hatched a clutch from one of your witblits males(spotted one). All the babies are normal(except half are leatherback)." So the 'sick' spotted male still reproduced. Guys a sick animal cannot reproduce. Fertility is one of the first things to go down the drain with sick animals. This animal clearly was not sick. Not saying he didn't have a 'problem'.

14 Sep 2010: "I may scratch the whole witblits project all together and focus on the silverback line. I have lost 2 out of the 3 witblits. They get to sub-adult size, then dramatically lose weight, then respiratory problems start to take over. The last one is starting to look thin."
Now this came to me as a real shock. After all the good statements from Josh and how well they were breeding I couldn't believe this.

So it seems that two of the three Witblits that Josh bought from us did die! One with the skin 'problem' and one with respiratory problems. Neither of these two problems can be linked to the Witblits morph per se. Any dragon could succumb to respiratory problems.

Sure sounds to me you know full well the issues.You contradict yourself a lot.