• Responding to email notices you receive.
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    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

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    Posted 08/15/2025
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    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

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    Addendum: 01/10/2026
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    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

WTH Rich!

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Legally: Rich is not breaking any laws.

Ethically: Totally subjective. What is moral or ethical is different with each and every one of us. I am glad that what you believe in works for you, please have the common courtesy to allow others to believe in what works for them.

Regardless of where I stand on the ethical front, I dont think Rich making his actions public knowledge was the best thing to do in light of the legislative atmosphere surrounding herps right now. I think Rich can at least understand where I am coming from, even if he dont agree. I also dont think it is the mountain many are trying to make out of this molehill.
 
Well, of a 300 post thread, this will be my 5th and final post, as I was just instructed by Harald to let it go, and so I will. I feel each of my posts on this thread were respectful, and I will continue being just as respectful.

Rich Z said:
Sure, but at what point does a person or persons constantly expressing those belittling options edge into the arena of maliciousnes and fanaticism? Really, I think you need to step back and take a look at yourself to analyze what your true motivations are here. It is my opinion that your motives are to do harm to me. Otherwise why are you and others so desperately trying to prove your case to find wrong doing on my part?
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I respectfully disagree that 5 posts constitutes maliciousness and/or fanaticism. My motives are definitely not to harm you.

Rich Z said:
Well, I guess that I will just have to be of the opinion that this is more a reflection of your lack of experience with snakes and ignorance then any actual physiological problem with that snake in the video.



Oh, right, I guess the next post will be that this is PROOF that the corn snakes I released have affected that green snake in the video above.. :rofl:

Seriously, you need to broaden your horizon a bit. You obviously don't have the experience level you think you do. It took me all of two minutes to find that video on YouTube. Not real big on research, now are you?
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I can admit that what I saw was not necessarily a genetic defect. Thanks for pointing that out. You just mentioned "belittling options", and "maliciousness". Was your belittling tone necessary?

Rich Z said:
Not to speak for Lucille, but I don't think anyone is aghast at the disagreement. I think people are becoming aghast at the vehemence and maliciousness of the out and out ATTACKS. Do you believe that someone purposely and maliciously quoting text from California laws in order to try to make me look like I had done something illegal is a reasonable and rational "disagreement"? Well I believe that anyone with even a quarter of their brain functioning can see this for what it really is.
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Again, could you please point out where I was being malicious? If You can provide me a quote, I will gladly apologize.

Rich Z said:
See, that's the problem. You think YOUR opinion is just common sense and not merely what it really is: YOUR OPINION. Nothing more. You guys are coming across like you are carrying a stone tablet engraved by God saying "THOW SHALT NOT RELEASE CORN SNAKES INTO THEIR NATIVE RANGE!" Quite frankly you are coming across as fanatics and zealots. Bigots, actually who feel that anyone who does not agree with their religious like chants should have crosses burned on their front lawn. If someone does not believe in their holy scripture then they MUST be heathens that should be stoned in public.

And you all are CLUELESS about how you appear to other people.
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Rich, who are we guys? I already told you that I act alone, and do my best to use intelligent respectful arguments. To me, not releasing captive animals into the wild is common sense. Perhaps I should have stated it as my opinion. After what will be my 5th post here, am I to understand that you see me as some type of religious cross burning zealot bigot because I expressed and opinion?

Please, if at any time I was malicious in my posts here, let me know and I will gladly offer an apology, or at very least, and explanation.
 
I know that other places sell their B-Grade animals on websites. I also know of others that give away the ones they dont want to work with. There are other solutions than just putting them down or turning them loose. I guess I will never understand why it is just looked at as turn them loose or kill them.
 
kmarsh said:
I guess I will never understand why it is just looked at as turn them loose or kill them.
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Because medical technology for reptiles hasn't advanced enough for the safe and cost effective spaying/neutering of them.

It's selective breeding - not just for looks but for health and suitability in a captive environment.

Selective breeding is great, herp breeders options for the unfit are not.

People who doesn't practice selective breeding, including some form of culling, are merely exacerbating the problem.
 
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Twizted Paths said:
Because medical technology for reptiles hasn't advanced enough for the safe and cost effective spaying/neutering of them.

It's selective breeding - not just for looks but for health and suitability in a captive environment.

Selective breeding is great, herp breeders options for the unfit are not.

People who doesn't practice selective breeding, including some form of culling, are merely exacerbating the problem.
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:iagree: Very well said.
 
Ok, I will entertain that train of thought. IF that were so then WHY release this type of "genetically bad" snakes into the wild. Many that buy reptiles don't buy them to breed, or to handle but some buy them to just enjoy watching them move or hunt or for what ever reasons. Some like the challenge of trying to get that one to feed that someone else didnt want to take the time to work with or it was too bothersome a process to find out what they wanted. I understand it is just easier to kill off or release the ones that are misfits but them maybe that is what is more important, if its not making me good fast money, do away with it. Just my opinion.
 
One of the reasons why many choose culling over giving away problem feeders or kinked animals is because you have no guarantee that the snake being given away won't be bred. The only way to ensure the snake won't reproduce is to remove the possibility entirely. People can be unethical and take in free, subpar animals to make a quick buck by breeding them (the eye defect in Albino Boas for example). You have no way of guaranteeing the defective animals adopted out won't make it into the gene pool.

The above obviously doesn't support Rich's decision to release rather then cull...But it was my understanding that many of the animals he released preferred alternative foods (such as anoles) and were not otherwise defective. That's what I got out of it, anyway.
 
kmarsh said:
I know that other places sell their B-Grade animals on websites. I also know of others that give away the ones they dont want to work with. There are other solutions than just putting them down or turning them loose. I guess I will never understand why it is just looked at as turn them loose or kill them.
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Regarding BPs....I just wanted to point out that this practice (bolded) has lead to the current complaint of so many "ugly" animals that are dragging down the quality of the morphs (it seems to have started with Pastels) being bred for the pure sake of breeding.:ack2:
 
kmarsh said:
I know that other places sell their B-Grade animals on websites. I also know of others that give away the ones they dont want to work with. There are other solutions than just putting them down or turning them loose. I guess I will never understand why it is just looked at as turn them loose or kill them.
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A non feeding animal is not a B-Grade animal. Its a dead animal if doesn't start feeding. He wasn't releasing screwed up B-Grade animals.

Rich was releasing animals with no feed response in the hope they could find what they want in their native habitat and have a fair shot.
 
I just happened upon this thread today, and while I am not an expert, and am in fact new at this hobby compared to many others on here, Rich included, I am shocked and really dismayed by this thread.
My opinion, and I will state it as such, is that Rich was very wrong to release captive-bred animals into the wild, even if they are of the same overall species, the morphs that we create and breed for to perfect often do, indeed, cause some genetic or health weakness in the animal. Case in point, the spider and spinner head wobble in ball pythons.
I also feel (again, choosing my words carefully) that Rich's actions could be used by HSUS and PETA against the reptile community.

Rich stated that:
I have already stated that I have been releasing corns for DECADES. When I lived in Maryland I relased corns beginning in the late 70s.
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WTF?????? Decades?

Evolution takes time- it could be several more decades before the ramifications of releasing captive-created morphs into the wild population becomes clear. People tend to get slightly taller with each generation, but it's something we don't think about and notice until we go to historic houses and realize the beds wouldn't have been long enough for us before we hit puberty!

I know Rich is out of the business, and as I have never known him or done business with him, I have nothing against him. I do however, strongly and vehemently oppose the practice of releasing animals- it's what got the whole mess down in Florida that is threatening to take away our rights to have any snakes away started.

I hope no one else decides to follow his example and release unwanted animals.
 
It was not just non feeding that he released. He stated that he didnt feel that it was justified to spend the time trying to get a snake to feed. ( not his exact quote but paraphrasing ) It just all seemed to come down to easiest to deal with stayed, any problem ones, released or killed. I'm sorry but that just bothers me and I feel that when we support such behavior its the same as if we did that ourselves. It just seems its all about the money.
 
It was not just non feeding that he released. He stated that he didnt feel that it was justified to spend the time trying to get a snake to feed. ( not his exact quote but paraphrasing ) It just all seemed to come down to easiest to deal with stayed, any problem ones, released or killed. I'm sorry but that just bothers me and I feel that when we support such behavior its the same as if we did that ourselves. It just seems its all about the money.
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:iagree:
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
The above obviously doesn't support Rich's decision to release rather then cull...But it was my understanding that many of the animals he released preferred alternative foods (such as anoles) and were not otherwise defective. That's what I got out of it, anyway.
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the original quote from Rich

Originally Posted by Rich Z
I tend to release anything that is not doing well in captivity, or perhaps just has some minor kinks that don't make it a candidate for the freezer. That is a benefit of living within the natural range of the corn snake.

Quite honestly, come January when everything has to be out of here, anything that has not been sold will probably just be released. Since I have killed off the mouse colony, there won't be many other options at that point when they need to come out of brumation.

Should make for some interesting walks around the property years from now. The good thing about that is that maybe they will clear out the rodent population around here that has been getting into my vehicles nesting and chewing up on wiring harnesses.
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Im sorry.... but any noticeable kinks make it a canadate to be culled.... to me thats a genetic defect.
 
Southern Wolf said:
Im sorry.... but any noticeable kinks make it a canadate to be culled.... to me thats a genetic defect.
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I agree. I am 100% for culling. I cull if an animal has physical deformities and I cull if an animal does not feed on its own (once it's deteriorated enough that I feel it has no chance of survival and/or is suffering, of course). You're preaching to the choir on that one. :D

Thanks though for locating the quote. I didn't read that.
 
This is obviously a topic which creates some strong feelings...and this thread became pretty heated.
I'm sure many thought, hoped, and/or expected that it would be shut down to squelch the fires, but that wasn't done for a couple of reasons - mainly because Rich was choosing to address the comments and accusations. I fully agree with his decision to step back from it, though.
It's been 5 days without any activity...and I'm taking this opportunity to make sure it doesn't get dragged back up & rekindled.
This thread is now locked.
 
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