YOU GOTTA CHECK THIS OUT on Kingsnake!

[Tony]

Quote: "Other who where banned, to the best of my knowledge, did violate user agreements or TOS......... real simple, don't violate them! They can bitch that Joe Blow does the same thing and is not banned, but that does not change the fact they did violate it."

I was banned because I wanted to know why I did not get a renewal notice of my kingsnake account. My account was cancelled without notification and would have made me unable to post classified ads for at least a week if not more. This can effect bussiness and that is important to me. When I told Jeff I was upset about how I was treated and how he ran his bussiness, I was then banned. Like always, with Jeff B., we are not allowed to have an opinion he does not like. Thanks.

Tony Alles

 

[CheriS]

Perhaps I did not detail it out in numbers sequence like you did, thank you for breaking the events down, but I thought that was basically the same thing I said that led much of this conflict with KS and BOI.... not that is/was BOI fault, it began with Adam's post (again not that anything was wrong in him posting them) Although IMO his website was playing the hand too far and that is what I believe set the ball rolling to the current problems. That's what I meant in us being responsible adults and maybe presenting opinions different on here if there is the desire to see this grow.

I was not talking about your style of writing in any post I or others have done, nor what transpired between you and Jeff, which I see as a sad situation (again, not saying that is your fault) I can well imagine Jeff coming across like that and a normal response that it would have resulted in. I DO NOT AGREE with his actions.

I was directing it at posts that ask a question or informs something and someone goes off on their personal vendetta, utterly ranting and raving (pictures of a dog frothing at the mouth runs through my head) that had nothing to do with the original post. Not that what they say may not be a fact or informative, but did it belong there? How does that look to others that come here to see if they can find a new home, favorite place, searching for information or looking to post here???

There is a lot more going on that just the problem between KS and BOI, AOL boards are a mess and the three make a triangle, with what I see as more than one attempt to generate more conflict between FC and KS by those..... who knows, maybe I see snakes under stones that are not there, maybe this is just one happy club that wants to remain exclusive!

For six months I lurked here reading, never posting, mainly because of some peoples aggression and what I saw as games. I did finally post as three members from here ask me to about a project we had been working on. The first time I try and post, its bastardized with intense hate that had nothing to do with the topic!

I see in many post others stating they want to help this site grow and welcome suggestions. It does have potential, but can you not try and see what some of this looks like to new people coming here, including ones that see post like that put on KS Ig forum with paste from here.....

It was obvious to me a provocateur had posted the original message there and I think most people that read it saw it the same way, with an AOL addy, bashing MK, paste from BOI......... Maybe my math is not perfect, but 2 + 2 always = 4

My contributing to this thread was asking people to be more responsible, rational and constructive in posting here or their actions elsewhere that reflect on here, not destructive and dysfunctional.

 

[Adam Block]

Fact is, Jeff may be one of the smartest people on the planet. Notice, like any great political figure, mob boss or felon he has yet to make even one comment on this matter. He has his Hench people come out and make statements, seemingly rewarding them with plasma TVs and the likes but he says nothing. You think the fees on KS went up because of bandwidth? HA! You keep paying people off with $3500 TVs and see how long you can do it without raising your prices.

Cheri, your statements only hold water if KS TOS is enforced equally across the board! If not, I still haven't gotten my $54 refund, I call that theft. Jeff picking and choosing whose money he keeps and who's he keeps without giving them what he paid for.

Would you be ticked if you went to jail for j walking or not wearing a seatbelt? I mean it's within the law for them to do so aren't you asking for it if you do it?

Adam Block

 

[CheriS]

I'd call it theft too if you paid for goods and did not get them.

I agree TOS should be across the board

Neither did I or do I support those actions or some others that KS has taken the past year

Damn, I got an email from Kevin, the webmaster telling me "sorry, but we don't feel listing sites that advertise competing services and run banner ads is in our best interest" I could not figure out what the problem was til I realized the free hosting I got that had an ad on my site in exchange was the problem. IT never entered my mind til then.. and you wanna talk about something that sure was not threat to them... pfft, its a tiny hosting company that has a few accounts!

I do not back the actions people here are talking about, I do think there could have been other ways to present some issues(users posts) that could have avoided later problems... easy for me to say. But people who go there to post and paste from here, are only stirring problems for here and that should be discouaged, it does not help here.


so........ if I get jailed, will you bail me out? How far are you from Florida?

Neil is the closest to me, but then not sure I can depend on him, he stare at racks and can't remember names!

 

[Seamus Haley]

Cheri, you also don't seem very bright... Just how many times do you have to be told I am not GMoney before you get it through that dense little skull of yours?

Anyway, since I am apparently "whining" and my post over there was horribly inappropriate and flaming, I figured I may as well post it here...

By the time I read the thread in question there had already been numerous replies, most of which seemed to be from that board's regular posters. They, quite sensibly, asked for proof that Kaplan's information was negligent and often outright dangerous and this is how I responded...

Posted by M_surinamensis </post/contactme.php?user=M_surinamensis&post=http://forum.kingsnake.com/iguana/messages/61202.html> on January 08, 2003 at 14:06:38:
In Reply to: Question regarding Mellisa Kaplan?? <61168.html> posted by G-Money on January 07, 2003 at 20:10:08:

Not all of these will be iguana related informational screw-ups, most in fact will be related to other herps. These are just a few that I have personally found on her website or have seen her post in assorted forums and on message boards, I am certain there are far more than I have personally run into. The difficulty with Kaplan is not generally her iguana information, it is more often the information she has given on other species, many of which I highly doubt she has ever seen in person much less kept, her rampant and extreme anti-pet trade views and her frankly laughable thoughts on behavioral science as it applies to herps. Anyway, here are a few examples of sheer nonsense I have personally found that she has put forth as "care information."
*Burmese Pythons will come when called by name.
*Neonate corn snakes eat crickets.
*Green anoles get nine inches snout to vent length.
*Reptiles can be "trained" in a manner that is directly opposed to their instinctive behaviors.
*A picture of a rainbow racerunner was "some kind of salamander" followed by a link to her salamander care pages.
*Boa constrictors will be ten feet long at two years of age.
*Her burmese python told her it was hungry by sitting on the microwave.
*Snakes recognize their names.
*Iguanas will stop being aggressive if you head bob back at them.
*Horned frogs have no teeth.
*twenty Gallon tall tanks are forty eight inches long, twenty inches tall
*Under a list of inappropriate items in an anole enclosure is a bullet followed by the word "Temperatures" with no further explanation or modifying thought.
*Reptiles can not be kept as pets and remain healthy. (This is an important one as it confirms her radical animal rights activist views).
*Basilisks do well in captivity.(Again no further modification of the statement)
*Basilisks do well in glass aquariums.
*Beardies only lay a maximum of sixteen eggs.
*Lists pink tongued and shingleback skinks as being species of Blue Tongues.
*The diet of all monitors should be 100% Rodents.
*Ball pythons are ophidiovores.

Like I had said, that's a very short list off the top of my head for things I remember her saying at one point or another. I have yet to see a care or informational article she has written that doesn't include at least four or five huge glaring and often dangerous mistakes. Certainly the argument that one is human is applicable to a point, but when one takes it upon themselves to function as a highly recognized educator, they need to have some awareness of what they're speaking about.
There are and have been rumors for years that she's a hypochondriac, that her nose was bitten off by one of her iguanas, that the iguanas she personally maintains in her home are always badly injured and covered in open sores because of territory related aggression without receiving vet care, that she's a plagiarist of the worst order and that she has never attended any institute of higher learning as a student looking to obtain a degree in any of the biological sciences.
The only one of those I can verify is that she never went to school for anything biology or zoology related and that her experience with actual animals is fairly minimal (This isn't Louie Porras we're talking about). I also lend credence to the rumors of her tendencies to plagiarize since she obviously has "care articles" about species she has never kept and is either making this information up (Also possible considering it's quality) or has stolen it from somewhere but I have no proof of this suspicion.
She has come out publicly and stated that she wants the private ownership of reptiles and amphibians to be outlawed, she has publicly supported many of the same causes and potential legal restrictions as such organizations as PETA and the HSUS and she constantly and repeatedly makes unfounded accusations about breeders, importers, dealers, hobbyists and retailers who are of a more high profile nature, many of whom are significant sponsors and supporters of this very website.
I do personally view her as one of the largest and most prominent threats to both the reptile industry and to individual reptiles due to her radical political views and her negligible and inaccurate "care information" respectively. I also feel that she really should be stopped from purveying her ignorance under the guise of reliable care information.
These are my thoughts and my opinions for the most part, the list of "care" information she has posted is factual and verifiable and I do welcome debate if anyone would care to discuss any of my views with me but I will not be responding to any juvenile nonsense or accusations of being a "troll."
Thank you,
-Seamus Haley
[email protected]

So now we can all see what a terrible, evil troublemaker I am. Stating my views in a frank and honest way like that, giving actual information (I can back up every single one of those statements to the degree which it was said).

Now Cheri, I have some questions for you. Please answer them with a Yes or No before going into any further explanations.

• Are you now or have you ever been a Moderator for Kingsnake.com?
• Are you now or have you ever been a HOST or Moderator for any AOL communities?
• Are you now or have you ever been employed by either of the above named organizations?
• Are you now or have you ever been a close friend or relative of any employees or volunteer moderators for either of the above named organizations?
• Are you really so dense as to think that I would ever post that garbage that GMoney wrote?
• Are you really just bitter because I made a post in response to one of your own making mention of the fact that Kaplan had no credibility and advising another website be used?

 

[Adam Block]

Seamus, I think Cheri has good intentions and I would be surprised if she was in bed with either in all honesty. If you look at her past posts she's never really endorsed KS even before the posts started.

Cheri, I will agree some of your posts are worded oddly making it a little tough to catch what you're saying or where you stand. I know in the past you emailed me saying "A change is coming", why don't you go into that a little more and try to find help for your plans.

Adam Block

 

[Seamus Haley]

Seamus, I think Cheri has good intentions and I would be surprised if she was in bed with either in all honesty.

We'll see I guess.

 

[CheriS]

I see you got your usually "don't seem very bright", "dense" demeaning "little" and the repetitive "juvenile" in your post directed at others. Along with your "frank", "honest", "factual" and "actual" speaking of yourself <----some psychology courses might benefit you in the future.

You can keep telling me your not GMONEY as long as you want to, its a freedom you have which serves your purpose/pattern whatever your reasons. Of course, I can't answer your question, as I never said you were and have responded the same to you more than once but that does not seem to work for you.

In answering this before to you, I said I considered you a follower, not a leader:

LEADER: One that leads or guides, who is in charge or in command of others, principal performer, foremost animals, apex or main shoot of a shrub or tree, the first, or the principal.

FOLLOWER: One that imitates or copies another, a fan; an enthusiast, the part of a machine that receives motion from another part, dependent, attendant

So the only thing I can conclude your adding that again to another post when it has been stated, then clarified to you prior, is it serves your purpose again to say it. I can't nor want to control your techniques or behavior. They speak what I could never convey

As far as your questions go, my first thought was to tell you to do some impossible feat with body parts, but then rereading your post and the "been rumors for years", "somewhere but I have no proof" I figured this was another ploy on your part to start more rumor and accusations.

So, Mr. Prosecutor

<li>NO</li>
<li>NO</li>
<li>NO</li>
<li>NO</li>
<li>NO</li>
<li>NO</li>

That was very foolish of you

 

[WebSlave]

I don't suppose there is much chance that my request for people to not be quite so offensive towards each other on this site will bear any fruit now is there? But I'm going to give it a try.

People, PLEASE! I am giving everyone here the opportunity to state their opinions and beliefs as well as any facts that they personally know of. If someone states an opinion that differs from yours, or believes something that you do not believe, or states a fact that you believe is false, PLEASE LIMIT YOUR ATTACK TO THE OPINION, BELIEF, OR FACT, AND DO NOT ATTACK THE PERSON MAKING THESE STATEMENTS. They are every bit within their right to make these statements. Although it is common courtroom tactics to try to discredit the maker of such statements, I believe this can be done without name calling or attempting to belittle the target.

If I have to incorporate some sort of rating mechanism on this site (and I AM looking at something like this right now), and start scoring negativity points on posters until they exceed a limit and get banned, then that is what I will have to do. I want this site to be POSITIVE and that cannot happen if everyone is constantly negative in response to someone else's statements. This has to end, and I do mean SOON. So practice at it. Pretend like you are talking to someone face to face in a public place and use some tact in your wordings. It does no one any good if everyone here makes enemies out of everyone else because of differences in opinions.

Try to act like this site is for the common good of us all. The internal fighting here has got to end. Work at it, please.

 

[CheriS]

Adam

I don't stand in either camp, both have their place. KS has been the only game in town of any caliber, but they are burning alot of bridges. That will hurt them, maybe not tomorrow, but eventually.

FC, I respect what Rich built here and his devotion to stick to it, even if what I see as a few users biting the hand that feeds them. It happens anywhere or any walk of life, at least he tries to be fair and even handed with a heart in the right place.

Both have some great people, and some self proclaimed intellectuals. There is always the kid in the class that has to add his 2 cents but never has put up a dollar.

In the long run, I think KS will burn one to many bridges unless they change and clean up some outstanding debts and soon. FC I think will endure, grow slowly and always have a place as it offers something that is no where else on the web and anyone attempting to duplicate it would fail.

Clear enough?

 

[Stardust]

Seamus,

I reluctantly write this because it may be construed that I am sticking up for Cheris and she does fine on her own and I applaud her efforts to even keep writing in this forum. BUT she is correct, I have seen the thread where she was giving a warning on a virus and the mere mention of Melissa Kaplan sent you into a tail spin and you have apparently kept that going. Why? Perhaps because she has her own beliefs that differ from yours? I also have not problem with MK, as of yet, but I am not a blind fan either.
I also would like to mention that your post in the Iguana discussion tho- possibly in your own way you thought you were going to be helpful was rude. A lot of people who own iguanas would take offence to that and I wouldn't blame them and not blame them for wanting to come on to that site to discuss just to be ridiculed by you. I am novice in iguana care and that was a turn off for me as well. Although I am going to over look your obvious rudeness for the better of a whole, others may not. If you really want this forum to take off as well maybe there should be some upbeat, possitive as well if not more than negitive, on the BOI I understand but on the discussions boards?
You write much more eloquently than I but even in your writings you childness is showing through by only picking up one thing out of many.
Maybe you should show that you are bigger than those people you down so much, ie, MK and KS and most iguana owners and admit when YOUR wrong.


Rozann Lamont

 

[Stardust]

I just wanted to say that I know I have misspelled words and the wording is not correct in the last post, it is early in the morning and quite frankly, I don't care. It is not about whether I dot every I or cross every T so no need to point it out, I already know.
Its about my thoughts and my wanting this forum to take off as well. But I can't go into a forum here or as you call a discussion board if I am the only one on and no others will write here. So until that happens I have little choice to go to KS for that part of my entertainment. I hope my point is coming across with out the dotted I's and crossed T's
Rozann Lamont

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Okay, let me ask this....WHY is there some kind of fight going on in this thread(oh wait, kingsnake, nevermind )?

I read Seamus' post when it was up for that long 45 minutes or so on kingsnake. I honestly felt there was nothing overly rude or antagonizing in it. He stated the facts he knew, and the ones he said he wasn't sure of he said were rumors or stated he didn't have proof. Yes I will agree that it was in a way an "attack" on Melissa Kaplan, however given her information(yes I have read it to) on species other than iguanas(Seamus stated this as well), it was deserved. Ms. Kaplan has some very inaccurate information posted in many of her caresheets, has been notified of this REPEATEDLY by many people, and apparently refuses to change or correct any of it. If her stance is that reptiles are next to impossible to keep healthy and that noone should be allowed to own them, then the information on her site suits her needs and motives perfectly. She is a "noted and renowned expert." Any information she posts or sponsors should be gold right? So if an EXPERT tells you corn snakes eat crickets, many novices will not argue. And when their snake dies from malnutrition, then they will agree that they are almost impossible to keep and fuel her argument. If somone buys a baby boa despite all the warnings and insults in her care article, if it is not up to ten feet at age 2, that person will think they are doing something horribly wrong when their snake is at a more average 4-6 feet. Again, more fuel for her campaign. So why change the information?

But I can see why many of the iguana people on the kingsnake forum got so hot and bothered. The "Iguana Queen" was being questioned as to the validity of some of her information. I don't agree AT ALL with the way that post started out(or ended for that matter), but before it was deleted, it did bring about some fairly intelligent discussion.

In the end, Jeff will run kingsnake as he sees fit as he always has. Outside of the moderators(don't use the boards that often anymore anyway), it is still a good site for buying and selling herps. Faunaclassifieds is great and is being run as Rich sees fit, which thankfully, is more fair-handed and allows for us to openly discuss those awesome deals we've gotten as well as the deals-gone-sour.

 

[Stardust]

First off I didn't really know there was a "fight" going on here.
I am not saying Seamus started that post, I saw it through from the beginning. I know he didn't. I also complimented him on his post there.
I don't think anyone is saying MK is right, or KS is right. I am just saying that MK has never said anything wrong to me about iguanas. So what? If I were to check out other animals on there, it would not be the only place I check. So maybe she is the jack of all trades master of none. She just has been right on target with helping me and my iguana AND some of it collaborates with other sites, and what does not I look for what makes the most sense and what the general opinion is.
As far as KS is concerned, I think they are in the wrong here, but it is their site and can do what they want to pound it into the ground. BUT that is the best place, for now, to go to forums. For me, I go for the BD and the iguana forum, here there is no BD forum that I have found and an iguana forum that no one goes to. So until more people are incorporated to these forums I would be communicating with myself, or Seamus at times if he feels like gracing me with his presence. (sorry but that is what I got from what he wrote.)
It seems to me that a lot of good info gets lost because something is mentioned that triggers someone off, they take that piece and rip it to shreds, and there is great info being left in the dust.
Just my opinion
Rozann Lamont

 

[Tony]

I have to agree that it is hard to find a forum entertaining if there is no body in them. You say that you would like to use the forums here but there is no people. Then, why not try to bring some people. There has been a few of us that have made the effort to go to the forums here. I have kept iguanas for several years, but by no means am I still interested in them. But I do know a lot of info that could be of help to others. So I make a point to go to that forum so at least someone is there to answer questions. Little by little if we let others know that there is a forum that we all can talk in without haveing posts deleted, I think people might come. Only a few people use the personal attacks here, it is not something that is done by everyone, so this whole group should not be labeled that way. There is still a lot of us who would love to help and who enjoy the debate. Just give us a chance. Thanks.

Tony Alles
www.reptileguru.com

 

[Stardust]

I would not in any way give up on this forum. There are good people here as well as KS. And I am going to try to bring people around if I can.
It is just a little snag there when you can't mention this site in other sites. I have come up with an idea though, which I have started to work on I won't share on open forum tho-

Rozann Lamont

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

Cheri,

by "fight" I meant the shots that you and Seamus seemed to be firing back and forth at each other in the last few posts. I apologize if I read more into either of your posts than was intended(and NO I'm not going to quote them).

And yes, the forums here WOULD be better with more participation. Well, let's start participating. Even if it's just say a group of 10-12 people in the forums answering and asking questions, then eventually it will grow, but those original 10-12 need to start discussions that will interest people. Get some polls going(heheh, we all know I LOVE polls ) to get people participating and interested. I'm actually going to hit a couple of forums right now and do just that.

I'm sure kingsnake's forums weren't getting however many hundreds of daily posts right off the bat, it took some time. The same goes for this site's forums as well.

 

[CheriS]

Rob, I think she was talking about Seamus's post on the iguana forum here, not on KS.

I normally try to avoid iguanas, iguana related message boards and iguana owners, it's an enormous stereotype on my part but I find most of them to be among the most ignorant of reptile owners, to the point where my palms itch and I grind my teeth to nothing as they speak...

thats not real welcoming to iguana owners coming here, maybe webslave and seamus could discuss it and reach another way for him to welcome people there.

I have never talked to Stardust about her feelings on that post or his response to the thread I mentioned earlier about viruses I had started, to know how those struck her. I have talked to many others and that came up as the exact reason they are turned off to even try here. I have emails and PM's from people that posted on that thread or only read it, never posted here(afraid too) and were disgusted by the attacked, it had no bearing on what I was saying. And that is not the only one. If I remember correctly, one person that posted there and voiced their feelings on seeing things like that, never has posted anything since.

Perhaps some have been here and discussing things like this with each other for so long there is an immunity to it. Not able see how it hits others just coming here for the first few times, affects any credibility that person may write on anything or anywhere else and the site that it is on. It is not the opinion, its the way it is presented and the childish name calling or belittling because another does not feel the way you do It informative to say: this informations is not correct, in fact, this animal will not eat this food.... as opposed to rattling off a list of gross name calling to get your point across.

Webslave already reminded us this is not the way to go. We are given a lot of freedom here, freedom is a precious thing, but with it also comes responsibilities. I have no problem admitting I am as guility. When my integrity was questioned falsely, my first response (well second) was to slap the offender silly, if not in person, then in words or at least show them how absurd they are.

Words are a powerful thing, they can inform constuctively, they can destory others and they can also tell others more about the person writting it , than the person realizes themself or intends to.

You don't build respect for yourself at the expense of another, you build it by your contribution to the same industry, what you give or put into it and how you go about doing that......

If the users here want this site grow, it is up to them and how they build it, not by what they say, but how they say it.

 

[CheriS]

Rob

I respond to statement that is not what I ever said and addressed to me as

Cheri, you also don't seem very bright... Just how many times do you have to be told I am not GMoney before you get it through that dense little skull of yours?

and then answer question that can only be attempts to mislead people if I don't answer them and I am firing shots?

I see Well, forgive me for aiming

 

[Rob Hill/Geckos Anonymous]

I see you got your usually "don't seem very bright", "dense" demeaning "little" and the repetitive "juvenile" in your post directed at others. Along with your "frank", "honest", "factual" and "actual" speaking of yourself <----some psychology courses might benefit you in the future.

Is that not firing a shot back at Seamus? Maybe not quite as outright insulting as "you must not be very smart," but I saw it as a veiled shot, nonetheless.

And I did not see the post regarding the "ignorance" of iguana keepers, so please forgive my ignorance on that. Guess I need to stick around every HOUR to see everythign that is going on here. lol

Also, just one more thing, then back onto the subject...I guess:\ Seamus mentioned the rumors about Ms. Kaplan that have been going around, and you accused him of attempting to further spread those rumors. I had heard all of those rumors in various forms long before I even knew there was a BOI or a Seamus Haley. How was he further spreading them? He even stated he DID NOT HAVE PROOF of these and that they were rumors. Perhaps I am missing something there that shows he is intentionally spreading falsities, and if I am I apologize in advance.

And so you know, NO, I am not 100% backing Seamus on this one. I disagree with some of the things he said regarding iguana keepers, but his initial post on that kingsnake thread I feel was pretty much right on about Ms. Kaplan.

Now, I know that Ms. Kaplan has come here before to state her side of things, I am surprised not to see her here again backing herself up. Neither is Jeff for that matter, and he has been on here in the past as well. However, I can somewhat understand why each won't address these issues HERE.

Also, just for the record, Adam, it says specifically in kingsnake TOS that if you lose your account for TOS violations, you FORFEIT your $54. If Jeff said he would give you a refund, then by all rights he should, however, he is protected by his TOS from giving you one. And Tony, not to offend you or start a fight(this was hashed over in your thread regarding what happened with you and Jeff already), but YOU didn't keep track of when your account expired. You should have been able to know on your own that at least some day in such and such month you bought your account, and that a year from that date it would expire. Although notices are nice, you should be able to handle it on your own without one.