Inquiry Why All The Hate Toward Reptiles By Mack?

[thamnophis123]

What we were trying to establish is whether it is more likely PETA manufactured all the cruelty we saw in the video, or if it is more likely that they simply recorded what they saw.

Your response seems to be, 1.) I'm stupid, and 2.) PETA euthanizes animals sometimes.

Hope your not offended when I say you didnt change my mind with that

If you think for a minute that any "animal advocacy group" has your best interests as a pet owner in mind, then you are either stupid, or simply ignorant of the facts.

 

[thamnophis123]

Again, I would be happy to read any trustworthy, non-propogandistic info about PETA.

Do you guys realize that it is exactly these big box pet stores that pay for all the anti-PETA propoganda out there? Its the hundreds of puppy mills across the country, the abusive animal agriculture industry, etc.

And your just so eager to lap up whatever propoganda they lay out for you.

I'm not a supporter of PETA - mostly because I dont know much about them. But I am a strong supporter of any group that fights animal abuse. I may not agree with every last aspect of their policies, but if they, like the Humane Society, the Humane League and others can eliminate some of the terrible abuse animals endure at the hand of man, they have my whole hearted support.

But PETA is not a good source for honest reviews in my opinion.

 

[BeauBoi]

l

What we were trying to establish is whether it is more likely PETA manufactured all the cruelty we saw in the video, or if it is more likely that they simply recorded what they saw.

Your response seems to be, 1.) I'm stupid, and 2.) PETA euthanizes animals sometimes.

Hope your not offended when I say you didnt change my mind with that

Well, let's start with your statement that PETA euthanized pets "sometimes". Why don't you look that up? It isn't "sometimes", it is the "vast majority of times". When I got into it with PETA several years ago, it was reported at over %98 of pets entrusted to PETA were not only euthanized, bu were actually euthanized in the pick-up van before it even left the property of the person surrendering the animal. That all came to light because PETA was illegally dumping the bodies of euthanized pets in grocery store dumpsters.

Unless you count news reports as "anti-PETA propaganda", then I don't see how you are missing the reports of PETA being dishonest and misrepresenting various agriculture business that they have attacked.

If you are going to discount news reports, then I think you are worse than stupid--you are willfully ignorant, and no one can help you with that.

Has it occurred to you that, in a community composed of people who genuinely love our animals, the majority of us have negative feelings towards PETA for a reason...?

~Beau

 

[thamnophis123]

Again - and I'm done after this - We are discussing whether its more likely the video depicts actual conditions at an animal wholesaler who moves thousands of animals to big box pet stores every week ...

OR

Its actually an elaborate ruse created by people who have entered the facility, ripped limbs off animals, infected them, bashed their heads to produce gore for the emotional impact, deprived them of water to the point of ner death, etc.

SInce we know it is true that animal abuse is far from unheard of at huge, wholesale facilities I would suggest the video likely depicts existing conditions. The only counter to that I hear is "I hate PETA because as a shelter of last resort they have had to euthanize animals"

Your response is irrational. You might even call it willfully ignorant

If you are going to discount news reports, then I think you are worse than stupid--you are willfully ignorant, and no one can help you with that.

 

[BeauBoi]

Again - and I'm done after this - We are discussing whether its more likely the video depicts actual conditions at an animal wholesaler who moves thousands of animals to big box pet stores every week ...

OR

Its actually an elaborate ruse created by people who have entered the facility, ripped limbs off animals, infected them, bashed their heads to produce gore for the emotional impact, deprived them of water to the point of ner death, etc.

SInce we know it is true that animal abuse is far from unheard of at huge, wholesale facilities I would suggest the video likely depicts existing conditions. The only counter to that I hear is "I hate PETA because as a shelter of last resort they have had to euthanize animals"

Your response is irrational. You might even call it willfully ignorant

No. It's called "doing my homework", something you obviously refuse to do.

During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to Rodney Coronado, an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) serial arsonist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory. In his sentencing memorandum, a federal prosecutor implicated PETA president Ingrid Newkirk in that crime. PETA vegetarian campaign coordinator Bruce Friedrich has also told an animal rights convention that “blowing stuff up and smashing windows” is “a great way to bring about animal liberation,” adding, “Hallelujah to the people who are willing to do it.”

If they are willing to blowup buildings with people and animals in it to "make their point", what makes you think they wouldn't maim an animal?

Regardless, I am more than willing to let the animal community HERE decide for themselves what PETA may or may not be capable of. All they have to do, after all, is Google.

~Beau

 

[BeauBoi]

By the way, here is a little more "anti-PETA propaganda":

PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk has described her group’s overall goal as “total animal liberation.” This means the complete abolition of meat, milk, cheese, eggs, honey, zoos, aquariums, circuses, wool, leather, fur, silk, hunting, fishing, and pet ownership. In a 2003 profile of Newkirk in The New Yorker, author Michael Specter wrote that Newkirk has had at least one seeing-eye dog taken away from its blind owner. PETA is also against all medical research that requires the use of animals, including research aimed at curing AIDS and cancer.

Real nice lady, huh?

~Beau

 

[MrTPlush]

You talk about research, but have you done research on this particular case? Everything should be on a case by case basis. You are generalizing the situation and assuming just because of past issues PETA has done something wrong here.

Maybe we should just wait it out till there is more information? Maybe instead of trying to get RBM off the hook when they could have done some very wrong things we should hope for more info.

 

[thamnophis123]

And so its your opinion that the video in question is more likely an elaborate hoax then a depiction of actual conditions as they were found?

 

[DollysMom]

The jury is not only out, but there hasn't even been a trial yet. I'm not willing to jump to any conclusions about any reptile breeder, large or small, brought forth by PETA on their word alone!

You've said it very well BeauBoi. My longstanding personal research about PETA aligns with your points.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Here's the funny thing from my perspective ... I live in the heart of pig country. We torture and slaughter 40 million pigs each and every year. When organizations like PETA come in and secretly video the animal abuse in the hog industry, we hear the animal ag respond with many of the exact same claims Rich came out with. Here's the truth - there is terrible abuse in any large scale animal "agriculture" - no economic way around it.
Curiousity Question: Are you a vegan? Are you advocating that all Americans become vegan?
Do you care? Then rathe than attack PETA et al, and whine about their tactics, change your consumer habits. Stop supporting big box pet stores, stop eating industrial pork.

Attacking the messenger is weak. We can accept the ugly reality they expose and make informed consumer decisions in response.[/QUOTE

It isn't attacking the messenger to advise caution in response to them, ESPECIALLY when they have proven in the past that they lie, which PETA has proven time and again, We don't know if it wasn't the PETA "employees" themselves who maimed the animals videoed. Further, that video was spliced so many times that many of the animals may not have even been in the facility!

~Beau

Leave the blue text to the moderation staff, please. Thanks.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Well lets look ay our options here ...

On the one hand you could choose to believe an animal rights group went undercover at a facility housing many thousands of animals and secretly video taped the sick, diseased and dying ones - something that anyone who has spent time in the animal wholesale industry has seen many, many times ...

OR

You can choose to believe that the animal rights group ripped limbs off animals, injured them in ways that made them look like they were dying, created glue boards then stuck live, healthy animals on to them, deprived animals of water so they could then film them drinking, some how caused infections and stayed around long enough to film it developing, etc.

I know which scenario seems more likely to me. I suppose if you want to bad enough, you can choose to believe the highly unlikely one. Sorta like religion in that way I suppose.

Again - and I'm done after this - We are discussing whether its more likely the video depicts actual conditions at an animal wholesaler who moves thousands of animals to big box pet stores every week ...

OR

Its actually an elaborate ruse created by people who have entered the facility, ripped limbs off animals, infected them, bashed their heads to produce gore for the emotional impact, deprived them of water to the point of ner death, etc.

SInce we know it is true that animal abuse is far from unheard of at huge, wholesale facilities I would suggest the video likely depicts existing conditions. The only counter to that I hear is "I hate PETA because as a shelter of last resort they have had to euthanize animals"

Your response is irrational. You might even call it willfully ignorant

You keep using false dichotomies.

It is very possible that some to all of what has been depicted may have been real (and very, very sad) and it is very possible that at least a portion has been staged or committed by a special interest group with an overriding agenda that is unilaterally promoted regardless of data.

 

[thamnophis123]

I'm not saying it has to be one or the other, I'm asking which is more likely? I've seen animal wholesale conditions so much worse than whats in the video. So for me - and I would guess anyone with experience in large scale animal wholesale - the conditions depicted are not only easy to believe, but less bad then I would expect.

On the other hand, I've seen the exact same response from the animal ag industry when their cruelty and abuse is exposed that I see here - attack the messenger, discredit the source.

Considering the potential loss of income for RbM, PETA would be sued for millions if it attempted to commit fraud. And it wouldn't be hard to prove. The problem, of course, is that the regular employees of the place would confirm that what is seen on the video is not a manuafactured hoax, but depicts typical conditions at the place.

Its the same reason the animal ag industry doesnt try to sue the animal rights groups that (used to) video the cruelty of animal ag. They no they cant sue for depictions of reality.

So trying to put the blame on PETA for recording the animal abuse at RbM is misdirected in my opinion. If somebody looks at that video and concludes it is largely, or partly a manufactured reality then they would have to ask why there is no lawsuit. Not even a denial on their web page.

An innocent party wouldnt go down so easy.

You keep using false dichotomies.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I'm not saying it has to be one or the other, I'm asking which is more likely? I've seen animal wholesale conditions so much worse than whats in the video. So for me - and I would guess anyone with experience in large scale animal wholesale - the conditions depicted are not only easy to believe, but less bad then I would expect

You keep presenting only those two end-of-spectrum possibilities as what the options are.

On the other hand, I've seen the exact same response from the animal ag industry when their cruelty and abuse is exposed that I see here - attack the messenger, discredit the source.

Considering the potential loss of income for RbM, PETA would be sued for millions if it attempted to commit fraud. And it wouldn't be hard to prove. The problem, of course, is that the regular employees of the place would confirm that what is seen on the video is not a manuafactured hoax, but depicts typical conditions at the place.

They would? For sure? You know this? It might be so and it might not be so, but you act like you know this.

Its the same reason the animal ag industry doesnt try to sue the animal rights groups that (used to) video the cruelty of animal ag. They no they cant sue for depictions of reality.

So trying to put the blame on PETA for recording the animal abuse at RbM is misdirected in my opinion. If somebody looks at that video and concludes it is largely, or partly a manufactured reality then they would have to ask why there is no lawsuit. Not even a denial on their web page.

An innocent party wouldnt go down so easy.

Please point me to where the blame is being put on PETA for recording animal abuse. Specifically being blamed for that act only - that means for acting solely as witnesses recording abuses they themselves are not in any way involved with.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Joe, just so you know, I have zero intention to condemn or defend any party here.

There are saddening states shown in that video whether they came into being by neglect, natural consequences of import quality, care failures from scale, direct abuses by one party, direct abuses by another party, or some mix of these things.

I am simply a believer in the value of procedural due process.

 

[DollysMom]

I'm not saying it has to be one or the other, I'm asking which is more likely? I've seen animal wholesale conditions so much worse than whats in the video. So for me - and I would guess anyone with experience in large scale animal wholesale - the conditions depicted are not only easy to believe, but less bad then I would expect.

I'd like more information about your background before I take that at face value. Like me, you've only made a few posts to this forum before this thread.

On the other hand, I've seen the exact same response from the animal ag industry when their cruelty and abuse is exposed that I see here - attack the messenger, discredit the source.

I'm don't believe that questioning the messenger's stated agenda and past actions should be out of bounds

Considering the potential loss of income for RbM, PETA would be sued for millions if it attempted to commit fraud. And it wouldn't be hard to prove. The problem, of course, is that the regular employees of the place would confirm that what is seen on the video is not a manuafactured hoax, but depicts typical conditions at the place.

No one has had time to sue anyone, yet. Way too early for this kind of talk.

Its the same reason the animal ag industry doesnt try to sue the animal rights groups that (used to) video the cruelty of animal ag. They no they cant sue for depictions of reality.

I do know that AR groups have and agenda and videos can be edited to show the worst. What is reality can be a very complex question.

So trying to put the blame on PETA for recording the animal abuse at RbM is misdirected in my opinion. If somebody looks at that video and concludes it is largely, or partly a manufactured reality then they would have to ask why there is no lawsuit. Not even a denial on their web page.

An innocent party wouldnt go down so easy.

It's only been, what, one or two days? Why are you so certain that what PETA has in that video is fully true, totally representative, and unbiased.

No one is going down easily. It's takes time to find facts. I don't know the facts and neither does anyone here. PETA's video may be factual, but to assume that it is just as naive as to assume it is not. It certainly would not stand as evidence in any US court of law as is. I'm not jumping to any conclusions based on this video alone. While its source does make me question it more, it not only the source; but basic principles of fairness that prompts me to wait for mor information.

 

[senusenu]

I don't trust PETA any farther than I could throw them. Any evidence presented by them is automatically suspect because of their agenda and their ties to the domestic terrorist group The Animal Liberation Front (aka ALF).

No one is saying it's impossible that they filmed animal neglect or abuse at the RBM facility. No one is saying that RBM has not or could not actually be engaging in animal abuse or neglect. No one is saying that PETA being involved absolves RBM of abuse or neglect that may be happening at their facility.

It is a fact that PETA would love to take away all of your animals and euthanize them before they even leave the block. That agenda will always skew anything they present and put THEM under suspicion for any video or photos they provide. Their agenda is to end the pet and animal agricultural industries and anything that moves them toward that end is acceptable. Including killing healthy, adoptable animals released to them in good faith that they'd find new homes.

So no, I'm not going to swallow their video, hook line and sinker. They are not a good or altruistic organization.

A neutral third party investigation (and not the HSUS, who also believe we have no business owning reptiles whatsoever) would be a good first step in validating the claims and bringing about prosecution for any animal cruelty they find.

 

[DollysMom]

P.S. Pardon my typos. I'm on an iPad and am a naturally horrible proofreader.

 

[Black Adder]

Again - and I'm done after this - We are discussing whether its more likely the video depicts actual conditions at an animal wholesaler who moves thousands of animals to big box pet stores every week ...

OR

Its actually an elaborate ruse created by people who have entered the facility, ripped limbs off animals, infected them, bashed their heads to produce gore for the emotional impact, deprived them of water to the point of ner death, etc.

SInce we know it is true that animal abuse is far from unheard of at huge, wholesale facilities I would suggest the video likely depicts existing conditions. The only counter to that I hear is "I hate PETA because as a shelter of last resort they have had to euthanize animals"

Your response is irrational. You might even call it willfully ignorant

Why do people ALWAYS make that statement then just cant resist to partake further, usually when they feel they cannot get everybody to agree to their sometimes jaundiced viewpoint......

 

[caffeinecynic]

Do you know much about the sheep shearing industry, Mr. Monahan?

This is PETA's investigation on it. Look at the images on the page, etc.

Rebuttal #1
Rebuttal #2
Rebuttal #3
Rebuttal #4
Rebuttal #5

Look up Shrek the Sheep, who had over 60lbs of unsheared wool.

I don't follow a lot of PETA's vitriol because I personally find it toxic to even read, but this story alone is enough to show what lengths their lies are willing to go to - and I am certain there are others. If you're not feeling particularly inclined to do some google research, Shrek was a sheep who escaped and ended up unsheared and had over 60lbs of wool on his body. When they have that much wool, it can cause overheating, and it also can cause them not to turn back over should they fall simply from the weight of their coat. This is a classic example of why shearing is actually a good thing for sheep - but PETA would have you believe it is animal cruelty. I'm 100% certain if I spent any time actually researching this, I could find you a few dozen other examples of where PETA has proven their agenda is more important than the truthfulness of what they are depicting.

This is why I doubt the authenticity of their video. This is why I question whether or not the video was staged. I don't actually have much of an opinion of Reptiles by Mack; I buy from breeders I know and that I trust. I have never purchased from them, and this video certainly makes me uncomfortable, but because I know PETA's history, I'm really not any more comfortable trusting what they have to say.

You're entitled to your opinion and whether or not you trust them, but I hope you'll consider what many people have said here before you take their word as completely honest. I'm sure they have done good for some industries, but the problem is that they have tarnished their own image and integrity by examples like the one I have purchased below.




Also, to CwnAnnwn - it's Ms, please.

 

[tlmoon]

I think the real truth is both on sides. Yes: there are disturbing things at RBM and probably other large wholesalers AND yes: the group doing the filming is potentially suspect for a myriad of reasons. As has been mentioned, this is not an either or situation.

It's very easy to take isolated instances and show only those parts, leading viewers to believe what they are seeing is the whole truth.

Am I defending RBM if this video proves to be true? No way. They should look at this as an opportunity to improve and make a commitment to better practices. Some very concerning things have been shown. I hope they will not write this off as simple extremism attacking them.

Am I fan of PETA? No, I think they are extreme and they present only their own viewpoint. However, I would take into consideration that if they are indeed showing things that happened at RBM, then those things happened - whether or not PETA has an agenda.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and far, far more complicated than "wholesalers are bad", "PETA is wrong", etc. It's very easy to get pulled onto one side of controversial issues, and lose track of the gray areas. More importantly, we can get distracted from addressing the issues because are all so busy arguing about things.