about siklback and their husbandry

[KelliH]

Oh, by the way, great post Alex.

 

[puppytoes72]

kelli, ty for answering me.ya know, i didnt even click on the links you provided because i know MOST of what i said deserved points (and were well worth it) but i really don't see the difference between AZZ and ASSume,when jamie's intention was clear in her statement.i really feel there is favoritism on this site and i ASSumed that would be the answer i would get.again,thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

 

[Hues1]

Alex-

I completely respect your opinion and your observations. But can anyone here honestly say that if this were me breeding these things, or Denise, or Sherri, or Michele, or Tracie (I apologize if I left anyone out), that somebody wouldn't be there chewing our rear ends for doing it? Sorry, but I don't think so.

In fact, I think were it someone like anyone listed above, we would be hauled off to the slaughterhouse, simply because the larger breeders are allowed to "get away with" a lot more than we ever would be.

Hi Tere

I agree to an extent.

But many projects are made or broken solely based on whom is producing them/selling them. There have been allot of great projects with potential that never really made it off the ground purely based on that scenario.

In my opinion, if any one of the people you mentioned above had come across this new mutation in their collection...I personally do believe that it would have been received much more pleasantly by those people you named just as long as it wasn't someone already considered "outside the box".

Its pretty evident that the same people over and over again have shown their dislike for the Dachius and people whom rally around them...vice versa. It would also make much sense that whatever the Dachius do or say will be criticized by these same people...vice versa.

A balanced debate would cover ALL the bases...PROS and CONS. A person, group, party, cohorts...etc., would / could / and who are willing to look at this objectively would look at BOTH sides of the argument. So far from what I personally see...it has been very one sided.

Objectively......
if the animal is suffering, in pain, not thriving, continually developing lesions, tearing, sores, ulcers, not healing from cuts bruises, constantly needing medical help...etc..etc..etc., then by all means STOP.

BUT......
if the animal IS thriving, not showing any discomfort, not requiring any special needs, not having continual medical issues...etc..etc..etc., then let it be.

Isn't that the important issue at hand? This thread really hasn't covered any of those positive/negative aspects, all I keep seeing are "Alessandro this", "the Dachius that"...they have already answered questions to the best of their ability. To keep playing "footsies" with them would only lead a person to believe that the real issue at hand is WHOM is working with these animals.

As of right now, there are not enough cons that outweigh the pros...YET. In my opinion...if the animal(s) are doing well ( as they seem to be ) then the real issue at hand is geared towards WHOM rather than the if, what and when. The whom should really not be the focal point at this time. Especially since these animals have not been around and studied enough to be condemned right out of the gate.

 

[KelliH]

kelli, ty for answering me.ya know, i didnt even click on the links you provided because i know MOST of what i said deserved points (and were well worth it) but i really don't see the difference between AZZ and ASSume,when jamie's intention was clear in her statement.i really feel there is favoritism on this site and i ASSumed that would be the answer i would get.again,thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

Hey, sometimes maybe it's worth the warning points to say what you really feel. I just happen to be a "goody goody" type in that aspect and like to have zero warning points. BTW, You are very welcome.

 

[puppytoes72]

Hey, sometimes maybe it's worth the warning points to say what you really feel. I just happen to be a "goody goody" type in that aspect and like to have ) warning points. You are very welcome.

it's not healthy to hold everything in

 

[Tere Salazar]

In my opinion, if any one of the people you mentioned above had come across this new mutation in their collection...I personally do believe that it would have been received much more pleasantly by those people you named just as long as it wasn't someone already considered "outside the box".

Alex,

Again, I see your point, and respect what you're observing, as well as your opinion.

I just have one more thing to say regarding who it is, then I'll shut up about it. If it were me doing this, and Denise didn't call me up and rip me a new one, I would think a LOT less of her, and the same would apply to anyone else who thought I was doing something that didn't sit right with them.

Case in point, I did just recently receive a chewing when somebody heard that I was breeding and incubating Adenovirus positive animals. Someone who didn't even know me at the time contacted me to let me know just how unhappy they were that I would do such a thing. I can safely say that had Denise heard this rumor, my phone would have been ringing within seconds.

I do hope that made some sense. It's been a fairly long day, and I'm trying to keep up with this in between working.

 

[KelliH]

it's not healthy to hold everything in

Don't worry, I let it all out at home, just ask my wonderful husband.

 

[puppytoes72]

tere,i WOULD INDEED give you hell and not respect you anymore if you introduced the "silkback project"

 

[Dachiu]

Also, at this time, artificial insemination techniques with reptiles is very rare even in real laboratory settings. These people creating this morph are NOT scientists, so what experience do they have with a technique that is only being attempted by veterinary researchers?

((There are other ways of fertilizing a female that offer no direct contact - this has been proven by many. Plus, a Silk does not need to be bred to create another Silk.))

There are quite a few dragon breeders who have particular knowledge and have utilized artificial insemination - and have proven it to work. Just because a few of you are not privy to this information, since it is not printed on a care sheet, please do not ASSume that it cannot be done.

A female silkback does NOT have to EVER be introduced to a male - to produce viable eggs.


The ignorance and harping of a select few has become annoyingly repetitious.
Who are you to make a decision for anyone else - of what should or should not be? What successful experiences do you have in raising, caring for and breeding dragons that entitles you to the honor of forcing your opinion on others? An opinion that has been formed on ASSumptions?

It is obvious after reading these posts, that certain people’s sincerity is nothing more than superficial. You aren’t looking to learn anything and you’re not interested in any of the information that has been provided - unless it can be used as ammunition.
Puppytoes made that glaringly obvious in one of her posts.

 

[puppytoes72]

" You aren’t looking to learn anything and you’re not interested in any of the information that has been provided - unless it can be used as ammunition.
Puppytoes made that glaringly obvious in one of her posts. " what exactly are you referring to vickie??


"The ignorance and harping of a select few has become annoyingly repetitious.
Who are you to make a decision for anyone else - of what should or should not be? " and WHO ARE YOU to create and promote something that was NOT MEANT TO BE ???

 

[whiskersmom]

KelliH wrote:

You know that the large scale commercial breeders all inbreed, don't you?

What do you consider large scale? Do you think Agama International is large scale? Because I happen to know without a doubt that they abhorr inbreeding. I've talked to other's who are good sized breeders and they too won't purposely tolerate inbreeding.

This is an email I received from Bert Langerwerf, I'm posting this with his permission, he's been good enough to answer my questions although he is not in the best of health.

From: "Bert Langerwerf" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert

From: "Bert Langerwerf" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "sherri gudnason" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Bearded dragons
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:33:42 -0500
Sherri,
Inbreeding is very profitable, as people want strong colors. So called color morphs.
I hate inbreeding, prevent inbreeding and do not have such strong color morphs.
But therefore my bearded dragons are not bright colored, people pay little money for such babies, and therefore I am going to stop working with bearded dragons after this season. ALL people that write me that they want a bearded dragon, write me that it should be as yellow or as red as possible!!! It is all frustrating. But, alas, the 'public' wants weak inbred animals...
It is just a question of time and they will die out in captivity.
So, I work more on other lizards, where people do not ask for color morphs.
In austr WDs e.g. I have hundreds of breeders, in Tegus the same.
No, I hate inbreeding..
Bert
Agama International, Inc.
[email protected]

We are not a ZOO, please no unannounced visitors

Vickie,
Are you saying that your knowledge and experience is greater or even the same as Bert Langerwerf? I am not claiming to be an expert but I know this man is highly respected in the reptile community. I trust his opinions as he's been an expert in this field for years uncountable.

 

[Dachiu]

we were all kissing butt to get him to stick around but he ran off anyways.im pretty sure tere was simply waiting and biding her time to get more answers from the questions asked by others.we all knew that it was inbreeding but we waited for him to "tighten the noose" so to speak

Ring a bell?

Vickie

 

[Tere Salazar]

tere,i WOULD INDEED give you hell and not respect you anymore if you introduced the "silkback project"

And THAT is why I keep you around! Okay...amongst other reasons.

 

[puppytoes72]

Ring a bell?

Vickie

ty,yes it sure does and if you two were completely honest we WOULD NOT have any ammunition.next time the least you two can do is get your stories straight first

 

[puppytoes72]

KelliH wrote:



What do you consider large scale? Do you think Agama International is large scale? Because I happen to know without a doubt that they abhorr inbreeding. I've talked to other's who are good sized breeders and they too won't purposely tolerate inbreeding.

This is an email I received from Bert Langerwerf, I'm posting this with his permission, he's been good enough to answer my questions although he is not in the best of health.



Vickie,
Are you saying that your knowledge and experience is greater or even the same as Bert Langerwerf? I am not claiming to be an expert but I know this man is highly respected in the reptile community. I trust his opinions as he's been an expert in this field for years uncountable.

great info sherri that was nice of him to email you even though he wasn't feeling well.

 

[puppytoes72]

And THAT is why I keep you around! Okay...amongst other reasons.

 

[KelliH]

What do you consider large scale? Do you think Agama International is large scale? Because I happen to know without a doubt that they abhorr inbreeding. I've talked to other's who are good sized breeders and they too won't purposely tolerate inbreeding.

I know Bert and have met and spoken with him in person (not about inbreeding) and I respect his opinion greatly. I would not really consider Agama Int. to be a large scale commercial breeder of bearded dragons any more, no. I was referring mainly to the big boys: Sandfire. Dragon's Den, Tremper, etc, the ones that supply most of the pet shops and online resale shops in the US.

I want you to understand something. I do not think it is a good idea to inbreed reptiles year after year after year after year. I am a big proponent of what is called outcrossing in the leopard gecko community. I outcross my bloodlines at least every three years, lots of times in the second year of a project I outcross. See, there is a big difference between inbreeding for generations and inbreeding two siblings together that came from completely unrelated parents. The reality is that any new morph of herp, whether it be new color phase, new pattern phase, recessive, dominant, co dominant, selectively bred, whatever... virtually all of them are refined and recreated through inbreeding.

It sounds to me like both Alessandro and the Daichus are doing a lot of outcrossing, especially since the Silkback is a co dom trait (meaning it can be bred to a -normal ie. non silkback- and about one half of all offspring will be expressing the Silkback trait).

 

[whiskersmom]

For anyone reading this that doesn't recognize the name (which I find hard to believe) Bert Langerwerf, just Google him, he is the most respected man in his field. Saying he isn't a large scale commercial breeder is probably a compliment to him.
Read his articles, the man is unbelievable when it comes to reptiles. If there were anyone in this world that deserves to be trusted and listened to, it's him.

 

[Dachiu]

I don’t know the gentleman, but have heard nothing but great things about him and his company. What’s your point??

For the sake of offering a well-rounded view - Here’s another perspective on inbreeding from another well known monitor breeder - FR.

The first thing you need to do is difine ethics and compare that to opinion. If after that, you wish to discuss ethics, then have at it.

The answer to that question is, if you do not think its right, then ethicially, you should not do it. If you think its right or have no other choice, then do it. Hey thats simple.

The real question is, why and why not. For most here that is beyond their ability to understand. Other then to create an arguement. Which has been going on forever.

If you are really concerned, then lets think about it. First, reptiles live in restricted populations, they are enclosed by either or both, physical or behavioral barriers. This shows up in having local color morphs of the same species. Something reptiles are noted for. Hence all the colors of corns, kings, boas, lizards etc. There are natural color morphs because of inbreeding. IF they out bred, they would tend to be uniform in color. With monitors, they are highly population oriented.

I can assume that thru decades or centuries of time, even with these animals outbreeding may occur, but remember we are assuming that.

Recently scientists are classifying species thru genetics, and now the understanding of this is just begining. Remember, this is very confusing to these scientists. Which leads me to question, how many of you are so learned at this.

To understand their genetics again is a huge question. Most of the comments I have read here are very naive. Its more complicated that you think and at the same time much more simple.

Genes are a "history book" of that animal, its not a simple set of building blocks. In populations, these are a set of successful steps that allowed that animals or group to continue to exsist. Like an onion, there are layers upon layers of genes that were expressed at one time. They're successful genes, not unsuccessful genes. This is something to really think about. Unsuccessful traits were simply erased by nature. Remember, there are no vets, doctors or halfway houses that will allow the incapable to survive. They simply die.

Think of it like this, if there was a delerious gene, it would have surfaced, then it would disappear because its unfit. If these animals are restricted in area, then inbreeding has to occur. Examples of this are islands. Also, many of you go herping, when you do, you say you are going over there to find this or that. You know where some kingsnakes, cornsnakes, spotted turtles, whatever, are, so you go there. Those are restricted areas. If they were designed to out breed, you would not have to go to a certain spot, you would be able to find them all over and they would tend to look alike. We would not have to use adjectives to help others understand what they looked like. These traits are Homozygous genes. There are no deleroius heterozygous genes. Hetero genes occur thru outbreeding. Try to understand that. Outbreeding is most likely how delerious genes are incurred. Then inbreeding will express these genes. So maybe we should question the ethics of outbreeding?

In captivity, many times we have no choices, for instance, I was the genesis of many species of reptiles. But lets pick a couple. I bred Kimberlys and Red Acanthurus. We had a pair and a trio. If I understand you correctly, you would have me not breed them after the first breedings? Because every breeding after that would be inbreeding. Ethically I could only breed the first pair and trio. Then I should have killed and preserved the rest. As they can only be inbred. I will be right back, i need to go kill of a bunch of baby lacies and pop some eggs. As I have all the lacies I need or want. Any more would surely have to be inbred.

That would have to happen with all rare monitors or reptiles. The reason is, they are rare.

In reality, genetic bottlenecking is a mathematical certainty. But there are many problems with that, first of all, animals are a living changing enity, not math. And second, the amount of time its takes is totally unknown. It may take hundreds of millions of years or one year.

Back to reality, in our cases, most of the people are being very hypocritical, as most have some morphs of other reptiles that are products of inbreeding, or pets like rabbits, mice, dogs, birds, cats, horses, etc, etc, that are products of inbreeding. Yet for some reason, they are against monitors being inbred.

I do not have a good answer for that. Only those people are not about ethics, are they? But more about opinion, which we are all allowed to have.

For my own experience, I have been inbreeding and outbreeding reptiles of many types for around four decades and have not seen any health problems doing so. I will say, I have experienced lots of problems with poor husbandry. I may be a bit jaded, but as an old person(compared to most of you) I think in most cases, genetics was a cover for poor husbandry. Certainly it could not the the fault of the keepers, could it? I mean they were so good at keeping monitors that all species have been bred for many years(bad joke) I really think the people who want to blame genetics for husbandry problems, should get into model trains or something else thats not living.

For me, I do not understand were there could be ethics, when then is little understanding of what these animals do in the first place. I do understand, there are lots of opinions.
For me, there are many more unethicial things, like taking mass amounts of monitors from nature, only to simply allow them to die.
People keeping monitors in such conditions that the monitors are physically unable to grow or reproduce.
People who ask how to set up their rare(you name the species) monitor. Because its their first monitor.
Anyone asking about caresheets for a species of monitor(my personal pet pieve)
Those are only some of my ethics, or is that my opinions. Ok, it may be opinions, but then, we are allowed to have them, aren't we.

F

ps. sorry for any misspelling.

PS - Our apparently “inbred” silkback female has outgrown her outcrossed leatherback relatives by over 100grams. Go figure.

 

[KelliH]

Saying he isn't a large scale commercial breeder is probably a compliment to him.

No, Agama Intl. is a commercial reptile breeder, no doubt about it. I said I didn't think they would be considered a large scale producer of bearded dragons. By the way, without the large scale commercial breeders of reptiles, you most likely would never have even had an opportunity to own a bearded dragon.