Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[varnyard]

Deb, I know what you are saying about a one-week guarantee, but that is not the case with amphibians. Breeders and resellers they often do not even guarantee a live arrival, and I know of none that give a one-week guarantee on them at all. They are not hardy at all and can stress very easy, and can die at the drop of a hat. So, it is like this, if you buy them from most people and want them in your collection, you are doing so at your own risk.

 

[hhmoore]

Outwardly healthy frogs can die overnight.
I've hand picked frogs at shows before, brought them home, set them up, and found some dead in the morning.
When we had the shop, and bought in some quantity, it wasn't uncommon, OR UNEXPECTED, to lose a few, right off the bat, from each shipment.
It's part of life when dealing with them.

I understand that, ideally, an animal will show up alive and healthy...and then thrive in our care.

 

[hhmoore]

(oops - I thought I deleted that last line when I decided not to pursue that line of thought)

 

[deborahbroadus]

Thanks guys for clearing that up for me!

 

[RJK890]

My only experience with frogs is Bass fishing .

However, I also had noticed that the pictures of the frog when it was alive looked like a different animal then the one in the picture of the dead frog.

The fact that the paper towels are still soaking wet in the picture of the dead frog may not mean much in relation to the actual humidity, but does however prove that Kelly is being dishonest about putting dry paper towels in the enclosure after taking the pics of the frog when it was alive. I don't think it is the flash that is making them look wet .

I think Ed honored his TOS of live arrival guarantee when he sent this frog to Kelly as a replacement to the one that was DOA(unless that was another scam of hers.) This frog arrived alive and looks as good as a frog can look in the pics.

Even IF that dead frog is the same one Ed sent, he is not obligated to replace it, and he should not. You obviously need to learn more about these animals before keeping them.

 

[K412]

How do you know it was a female? You chopped it up and physically pulled the eggs out? Did the vet? I may be blind, so I did not see any mention of eggs in the vet report, just a bunch of toxic organs, which, when talking about dead amphibians, seems to be about as unprecedented as unrest in the middle east.

I did not "chop" the frog up. Io was surprised to hear that he was a she. I was told by Ed on August 13 via pm that it was without a doubt a male. My vet told me that it was a girl.
I don't understand how she was full of eggs and so small. The age of the frog exactly is unklnown because I don't know who the breeder is. I was told via om that it was a baby or big juvie by Ed.

 

[crazyfroglady]

People keep stating that she is an unexperienced keeper like that is the reason the frog died. The FACT remains that the cause of death was bacterial septicemia which means it was in the blood stream which means that there is no way this occured after death. She is simply trying to warn people that Ed is still selling these frogs (whether the same batch or not they could be from the same BREEDER) which possibly have a bacterial infection. Ed did honor his live arrival guarantee but he also states in other forums that if the frog is sick and dies at no fault of the owner he will refund/replace and eat the vet bills. If RJK were on the fatfrog forums doing his research before chiming in he/she would know that k4 did do her research. HUMIDITY is NOT and issue this has already been said several times. The only issue is the frog was sick and ED AS USUAL refused to handle this in a private way. ED also claims to breed and treat his frogs for chytrid. Which is why I'm waiting for those tests to come in before I am going to say for sure ED is guilty of knowing sending a sick frog. BUT K4 did not do anything to kill this frog or try to screw ed in any way. This all pisses me off because ED posted a thread saying that she killed two of his frogs and calling her a liar. Ed is the only proven liar I know out of the two. Why would she try to get money off of ED by switching the frog? He doesn't refund money even when he IS clearly to blame.

 

[K412]

I have my doubts about this, I would even go so far as to say I doubt they are the same frog.

If I had the option of purchasing a blue phase whites here I would have done so instead of having one shipped.
I know that people can be dishonest and do appauling things to animals. I am not one of those people.
I would not have done this if I really thought that I was to blame. Initially I felt very guilty and was remorseful. When I used my head I knew something had to have been wrong with her to cause her to die so suddenly.
I would not do this to Ed out of spite for any reason. I have no intention of blackballing him. The purpose of posting here is to let other potential customers be aware of his business practice and be warned. I had no knowledge of the kind of person he was before this happened to me. Ed and I always had a cordial relationship and I did not hestiate to speak highly of him. I made many attempts to contact him but he would not respond to me at all.
I have not resorted to name calling or any other petty devices.
I would not take the time and effort and financial burden to say he is a bad guy if there was not a reason behind it.
I don't know him personally anymore than he knows me. I do not have anything against him other than this issue.
I knew that by posting here I would be "on trial" and my charachter would come into question. I have no problem answering any and all questions about this issue. I have been honest and forthcoming to everyone who has asked me questions.
I wish I had a scanner so that I could post the report. I will try to take pictures of it and post those.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Though my head may be bitten off for saying so. I could not see the logic myself of you going though so much expense to try and scam someone.

I hope that the truth does come out..whether for you or Ed. However, if what the more experienced posters say is true, you may have no recourse because only live arrival is guaranteed.

HOWEVER..if you can prove that the frog was sick and that Ed knew of it..or lied about certain tests that contributed to the death that could be a bonus in your favor but you still may have no recourse other than to warn others.

If you can prove only that the frog was sick...and not that Ed knew of it then IMO it would be a factor to take under consideration if any of his other batches took ill, died quickly and his customers later complained.

 

[K412]

She has been caught a few times here being less than honest. It looks to me like she is trying to blow some smoke here to collect the cash.

In the pictures above I see a great looking Whites in the first photo with a little marking on his side. In the second picture I see a lighter looking Whites with no spot and much thinner legs.

Kelly looks to me like you might be trying to pull a fast one. However, either way, you claimed it was a great looking animal when you got him/her, and that was after the guarantee ended. Ed did exactly what he said and you got what you ordered, anything past that means nothing. Ed owes you nothing, and in the end you have tried to pull the wool over our eyes to gain revenue.

There is none here that is blind, and the BOI is the wrong place to try to play this game.

I am not pulling wool over anyone's eyes. I have not been dishonest in any way. I have said that he followed the live arrival guarantee. I am not using this forum to get repaid what I have spent. Yes, I was very pleased with the frog the day that she arrived. She looked healthy and plump to me.
The lighter coloring in the pictuer of the deceased frog is likely due to the secretions from stress and shed rests. The fluid between her body and shed was bright white.
Again, I am now aware that the professional standard that Ed holds himself to is much lower than I had believed. If I had known about this forum I never would have bought an animal from him to begin with.
I was told that I was getting a male the day before he shipped me a female.
I suppose that my error would be assuming that I was getting a healthy one. Perhaps I should have requested a healthy one.

 

[K412]

My only experience with frogs is Bass fishing .

However, I also had noticed that the pictures of the frog when it was alive looked like a different animal then the one in the picture of the dead frog.

The fact that the paper towels are still soaking wet in the picture of the dead frog may not mean much in relation to the actual humidity, but does however prove that Kelly is being dishonest about putting dry paper towels in the enclosure after taking the pics of the frog when it was alive. I don't think it is the flash that is making them look wet .

I think Ed honored his TOS of live arrival guarantee when he sent this frog to Kelly as a replacement to the one that was DOA(unless that was another scam of hers.) This frog arrived alive and looks as good as a frog can look in the pics.

Even IF that dead frog is the same one Ed sent, he is not obligated to replace it, and he should not. You obviously need to learn more about these animals before keeping them.

I have not scammed anyone.
The pictures are of the same frog.
The lesson to be learned here for me is to never purchase an animal that I have not seen. Even then I will be leary.
As I stated previously I did a great deal of research about these frogs before getting one.
I would not accept an animal from him.
I don't expect to be refunded because he honored his guarantee. I feel tht it is wrong to sell sick animals, obviously he doesn't feel that way. When someone puts a dollar amount on an animals life and sees them as only cash they are detached and their life doesn't matter. Being a customer I do not see them as disposable.

 

[Ed Clark]

I've seen the comments disputing whether this was the last one Ed had or not, and the "evidence" that he said he often had as many as 100 of them at a time, and that he posted more pics. I guess people don't accept that animals come and go all the time when somebody is in the business of buying and selling. It could well have been the last of that batch, and another batch came in a few days later. I'm not saying that is the case - obviously, I don't know....but what is the point of that line of conjecture?

Like Ed, or hate him...it doesn't really matter in this case. The frog arrived alive, as guaranteed...and it was outwardly healthy. Even if he chose to replace it, he would not be responsible for either the initial necropsy or the shipping for/& subsequent analysis. The OP is out of line with her request. Period.

Kelly has stated over and over that I said this was the last one. WHY?

It does not change the fact that I delivered a perfectly healthy frog shown in the pictuires she posted.

For the record, that was a keeper that was a young adult and was the only 1 that size.

I always have small whites coming up, that larger one was the last one of the big ones.

 

[Ed Clark]

Ed, if you have kept other frogs with the one sent to Kelly, it would be best to have them tested also. Bacteria can spread quickly between animals, especially in a moist environment.

Yes, they were sent to a major zoo and they rave about how nice they are.

They were Qt and tested repeatedly by the staff of vets at that zoo and are on display in their permanant collection in the reptile house and in the education dept.

I sent off an email asking if I could post their name, will post it if they agree.

Any problems with that frog occured in Kelly Browns care, she just did not have the experience to provide proper care to that tree frog.

 

[RJK890]

Quote Kelly:
Ed if you read this the principal balance for you is 275.00.

You were expecting Ed to give you money back for the frog, and necro(which may not have even been worth having done, for accuracy reasons?)
He honored the TOS by sending out a replacement frog after the first one died. This frog arrived alive, done deal!

Quote Kelly:
I hold him accountable because he had stated on tttf in reference to another dissatisfied customer that if an acute death took place and was not the customers fault that he would honor his guarantee.
Whether he does or not is not the point.

So you do hold him accountable, and would like him to honor his guarantee because he stated to another dissatisfied customer that if an acute death took place and was not the customers fault that he would honor his guarantee.
However, He does feel that the death of this frog was the customers fault.

Quote Kelly:
I am aware of that. It was not a part of a contractual aggreement between us specifically.
Just because it's the moral thing to do doesn't mean that it will be done.

Is it really "the moral thing to do" for a seller to continue to ship out free animals at his/her own expense until the customer learns how to keep them alive?

Quote Kelly:
I went to check on him after I put the crickets in and he was behind the rock thing dead in the corner. I had totally left him alone but I guess I stressed the shit out of him the first day. There was a milky fluid between his body and what looked like a shed. The yellow tinges weren't visible I only saw them in the pictures.

No comment on this one.

Quote Kelly:
I'm not going to keep frogs anymore I PROMISE. I can't tell you how sorry I am that I killed your pretty frog. I am sorry that I wasted his life and your time. Rest assured it won't happen again, I probably won't even keep the ones I have. I'm not meant to keep them I guess.

No comment on this one either.

I would not accept an animal from him.
I don't expect to be refunded because he honored his guarantee.

Well, if you would not accept another replacement animal from him(which would be over and above anything that should be expected from him at this point,) and don't expect to be refunded monetarily because he has honored his live arrival guarantee, there is no way for Ed to compensate you or make this right with you. Not that he actually owes you anything, or needs to make anything right in this case, but there is nothing he can do not to have a dissatisfied customer. I guess this is just a case of "you can't please all the people, all the time."

I still agree with Bobby(Varnyard,) that the pictures of the living frog and the one of the dead frog appear to be different animals. It also does not appear that Kelly ever changed the soaking wet paper towels like she said she did. Maybe, I have just been hanging out on the BOI too much though.

Ed, even though you handled this sale as professionally as anybody could, and the frog that arrived alive appears to be healthy, it probably would not hurt to get a few of your frogs checked out just to make sure they don't have Septic problems.

 

[Ed Clark]

perhaps I am in the wrong business....I can get into the Frog business and guarantee only live arrival..(now to figure out how to keep them alive that long...ummmmm)

That sarcastic statement shows you know nothing about selling and shipping amphibians!

Most will offer no guarantees at all, I will guarantee live arrival and have replaced many frogs that die in transit.

The most important thing a new frog owner should do is tons of research before they purchase a frog, a person like that will almost always be successful in keeping a frog.

Kelly Brown on the other hand chose to do her research after that frog was sitting in a bad environment.

Scroll back and read where she said she was trying to TONG feed a tree frog with pieces of worms!

 

[Ed Clark]

Honestly, I do not have enough experience with Frogs and I am not going to pretend and just post for the sake of having something to say..I just want to remind us that it takes time for an animal to die even if one is the worse keeper in the world.

Thats far from true with frogs, a healthy frog can die in a heart beat.

 

[deborahbroadus]

That sarcastic statement shows you know nothing about selling and shipping amphibians!
Most will offer no guarantees at all, I will guarantee live arrival and have replaced many frogs that die in transit.

The most important thing a new frog owner should do is tons of research before they purchase a frog, a person like that will almost always be successful in keeping a frog.

Kelly Brown on the other hand chose to do her research after that frog was sitting in a bad environment.

Scroll back and read where she said she was trying to TONG feed a tree frog with pieces of worms!

I have already admitted that. Screaming at me will not educate me.

 

[K412]

That sarcastic statement shows you know nothing about selling and shipping amphibians!

Most will offer no guarantees at all, I will guarantee live arrival and have replaced many frogs that die in transit.

The most important thing a new frog owner should do is tons of research before they purchase a frog, a person like that will almost always be successful in keeping a frog.

Kelly Brown on the other hand chose to do her research after that frog was sitting in a bad environment.

Scroll back and read where she said she was trying to TONG feed a tree frog with pieces of worms!

I was concerned because she was not eating and because I did the reasearch and am aware of their appetites.
I never put her in a bad enviornment. It is not possible for her to get ill and die from septicemia in a day Ed.
I was concerned because she was letharic, comparing that to my horned frog is an understatement.
I quoted you as saying that you only had one left that is WHY.
You are relying on my pictures as proof that she was a "healthy" frog but don't bother too look very closely do you.
OK, first I decided to stay out of this:

But I guess it's time to say something!

I checked the pictures of the White's when he was alive and zoomed them:

The frog has a very drowsy glimpse, the left forarm and wrist are reddish and swollen,
the nose is reddish (could be a nose rub too) and the skin
is reddish on some parts.
The frog is very weak, check how he sits in the water bowl, he
can hardly support his body.
His eyes are "sunken in" a bit.
The sticky toe pads look bloodshot, especially on the hands.

And as Kelly stated, the frog never tried to eat something!
Everybody who keeps or kept White's knows how voracious they are.

Those can be all signs of the Chytrid Fungus and at least EVERYBODY should
recognize and see that the frog WASN'T HEALTHY as he was alive!!!

I DON'T SAY THAT the frog looked like this when Ed sent him,
but when the frog carries the fungus + gets a lot of STRESS
(from the transport) the fungus can occur very fast and kill a frog within a day!!!!!!!














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Fat Frogs Forums Forum Index -> Other Amphibians
I appreciate Lars coming forward to note what was said in private to me. Lars is very helpful and one of the members of fatfrogs that I admire very much, not only for his knowledge and expertise but for his honesty. I asked Lars long before acquiring the frog about their maintenance and he offered very useful links to care sheets.
I did not go but another frog to switch out with this one, I have already posted pictures of my corn snake in the tank so I did not and do not have another WTF.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Yes, they were sent to a major zoo and they rave about how nice they are.

They were Qt and tested repeatedly by the staff of vets at that zoo and are on display in their permanant collection in the reptile house and in the education dept.

I sent off an email asking if I could post their name, will post it if they agree.

Any problems with that frog occured in Kelly Browns care, she just did not have the experience to provide proper care to that tree frog.

Why wouldn't they let you post their name? Why would it even be a factor? I would think (yeah, I have been wrong before, but I will STILL bring up issues that I have a problem with) that if you made a major sale like that it would be in your favor to be able to name drop and you would not need to ask permission.

For example, if I made a sale to a major BP breeder, you betcha I would advertise it..it's good rep points. I wouldn't know of any buyer that would not let the seller use their name as a "previous" customer reference.

 

[Goblinmatt]

I also dont agree with asking him to pay for the necropsy..

If you take a look at my new post here, ed replaced a frog of mine that got banged up during shipping. I dont believe he is trying to scam you out of a frog in anyway.