Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[Bill Stonegate]

Notice the part where she said she left it alone? I did everytime you posted it. This is how people sometimes feel when something dies in their care. That is clearly just the words of a woman who was upset and has a deep love for animals.[/QUOTE]

I agree. However, that does not entitle her to become a nutjob with the supposed facts, for an extended period of time.

 

[crazyfroglady]

No, actually, you have not. You have made a bunch of wild claims, but failed to deliver any verifiable proof.

You can argue it is Ed's responsibility to come here and defend himself, but you are "prosecuting the case", so either present your evidence, or shut up. You don't seem to be able to do either.

YOU made the accusation. YOU prove it. It's gonna take something more than "my frog looked lethargic, and it's eyes were bloodshot".

Just because you talk (write) a lot does not necessarily mean you have anything to say .

FWIT, I have no allegiance to either party. Ed sent you a replacement animal, which he was not required to do, under the TOS. And you're still bitching? Get a life.

Yes she has remained an adult about the situation. Ed on the other hand telling her she killed both frogs was not. And him not responding to it in a private matter brought it on himself. Ed sent her another animal because the other one did not arrive alive (live arrival gaurantee). Which she handled that situation like and adult also. She is just trying to warn people who purchase frogs from him in the future that they may be sick. There was more than just her frog looked sick. There was a necropsy and there have been several people who have extensive knowledge of frogs stating that the frog also looked sick. Where is Eds proof that the frog was healthy? People like you piss me off coming in here firing at k4 without reading all of the threads including the ones on fat frogs. Also the ones that don't even own frogs telling her that her viv was wrong and she switched the frog. YOU SIR ARE THE ONE WHO TRULY HAS NOTHING USEFUL TO SAY!

 

[jayefbe]

Who is saying that the frog looked sick? Who? One person highlighted areas on the frogs, but the most knowledgeable person to respond to this thread (Seamus) essentially stated that those regions were or at least probably were normal. She has no evidence backing up any of her claims. Nobody else has complained about sick frogs. If she's going to continue throwing everything but the kitchen sink at Ed, then of course people are going to start questioning her husbandry practices. If you notice on this thread, people started off on her side. It wasn't until more information was released that people began questioning her. I for one, don't think she has any ill intentions. I don't think she's trying to scam Ed or spread false information. I do think that she's become a little hysterical and is trying to pin the blame of this frog's death on someone else. As it stands, she's having trouble convincing anyone that Ed sent her anything other than a perfectly healthy frog. It's entirely possible, probable in this case, that the frog died from the stress of shipping and nobody is to blame.

 

[crazyfroglady]

I offered her a free red morph baby and told her I would pay the shipping.

She said she did not want anything from me.

She also posted that the female I sent her laid a set of healthy fertile eggs.

If my memory serves me correctly she asked for the Original crested gecko you sent her pictures of and told her she was going to get. You ignored her, and ignored her, and ignored her. This seems to be a pattern with you ED.

 

[crazyfroglady]

Who is saying that the frog looked sick? Who? One person highlighted areas on the frogs, but the most knowledgeable person to respond to this thread (Seamus) essentially stated that those regions were or at least probably were normal. She has no evidence backing up any of her claims. Nobody else has complained about sick frogs. If she's going to continue throwing everything but the kitchen sink at Ed, then of course people are going to start questioning her husbandry practices. If you notice on this thread, people started off on her side. It wasn't until more information was released that people began questioning her. I for one, don't think she has any ill intentions. I don't think she's trying to scam Ed or spread false information. I do think that she's become a little hysterical and is trying to pin the blame of this frog's death on someone else. As it stands, she's having trouble convincing anyone that Ed sent her anything other than a perfectly healthy frog. It's entirely possible, probable in this case, that the frog died from the stress of shipping and nobody is to blame.

Would you become hysterical if someone acused you of killing your animals? I know I would. For example saying your humidity was too high. You should definitely check out fatfrogs. She had no problem convincing several people including mods there. I just don't see how people can comment on whether the frog looked healthy unless they've owned them. Lars who is the most knowledgeable person that I know of has. I also own two and I know neither of mine looked like that.

I am curious to find out whether Ed packed the frog with a cooling pad

 

[jayefbe]

The only accusing I've seen is from K412 to Ed.

Seamus has kept these frogs for years and only saw a healthy frog.

But the point is, this is all speculation. K412 has evidence that is largely negligible and (if what you say about fatfrogs is correct) differing viewpoints from very informed keepers based on a handful of pictures. In the end, it's a wash.

So I think the matter should be dropped. She says Ed has sick frogs, but until anyone can back up that claim she's not going to be gaining any support over here.

This is becoming very reminiscent of when relatives sue hospitals when the unfortunate happens. Many times they sue just to blame someone for their loved one's passing.

 

[crazyfroglady]

So I think the matter should be dropped. She says Ed has sick frogs, but until anyone can back up that claim she's not going to be gaining any support over here.

Good point! I look forward to seeing several posts from you in the future.

I'm here to defend her because I know she did her research on the husbandry of these frogs. Who are you to question? Dart frogs are not even close. Kelly is a good person and never had anything but nice things to say about everyone including Ed up until this point. She before this Aussie white situation even defended Ed on occasion. She is rightfully mad for being ignored. She is also rightfully mad about being accused of killing her frog by you, ed, and quite a few other people on this forum. She has every right to voice her opinion here since Ed refused to handle this in a private manner.

 

[crazyfroglady]

Another thing about the cage set-up: you stated that the wet paper towels were only due to the fact that you spilled water when placing the frog in the cage, and later you replaced them. Why is it that that in the photo of the deceased frog the paper towels appear to be thoroughly drenched?

You're accusing her of bad husbandry. Why would you do that unless you're suggesting she attributed to the death of the animal? Sound like you're SPECULATING that she killed her.

 

[jayefbe]

You're accusing her of bad husbandry. Why would you do that unless you're suggesting she attributed to the death of the animal? Sound like you're SPECULATING that she killed her.

I was pointing out inconsistencies in her story. Do I think she killed the frog? Most likely, no. Do I think she had good husbandry skills and an ideal setup? No.

When it comes to the paper towels, it looks as though she has a guilty conscience and is trying to cover up the fact that, yes, the cage floor was sopping wet the whole time. I don't think she's lying maliciously, but I do think that she's not being completely honest. Her guilty reaction when the frog first died had to come from somewhere, and I think she's overcompensating for it by blaming Ed.

And dart frogs, might I add, are much more difficult to keep than white's tree frogs. I'm not saying that I'm an expert on white's tree frogs or amphibians in general, but I do recognize someone that doesn't really know what they're doing.

 

[crazyfroglady]

From looking at the pictures it appears that this was a rather large exoterra. I don't see how some wet paper towels even if they were soaked caused excessive humidity.

What about inconsistencies in Ed's stories? I don't see you pointing those out. Oh and there are plenty of them with almost every single one of these BOI threads. Ed is a proven liar and a jerk I can say that from experience. Ed's demeanor is completely different on the fat frog forums.

As for saying that her having a guilty reaction is an admission of some sort of guilt in the matter is bologne. As a man Josh you could never understand how women feel in these types of situations. For Example: A little less than a year ago I miscarried a baby. When it first happened I repeatedly asked myself what I did wrong, but later realized that it was not my fault and there was nothing I could do to change it. As women we are programmed to nurture and when something dies in our care we take it to heart. I know if one of my frogs died before it's time I would run through the same emotions.

 

[jayefbe]

I do offer you my condolences, Jamie.

About the paper towels, I agree that they did not contribute to the frog's death. But why lie about them? She said that they had only been wet for a short period before she replaced them, but the deceased frog is still on wet paper towels. I know it has been beaten to death at this point, but it just seems suspicious when her story seems to contradict other evidence.

I know that Ed has been a jerk and has made some strong accusations towards K412. In all honesty, his posts in this thread have done nothing but show his lack of sympathy. Regardless of his arrogant ways, I don't think he has either consciously or through ignorance done anything wrong in this instance. K412 has raised concern over the quality of his frogs based upon evidence that is hardly convincing. If the chytrid tests come back positive, I would gladly join the fight in preventing Ed from spreading this virulent fungus to other collections. But considering the lack of support from concrete evidence, and the total absence of sudden death occurring in other frogs sold by Ed, it appears as though this is a crusade to harm Ed's business on the sole basis that he is a jerk.

 

[LakesideBoas]

With all due respect Ms or Mrs. Burroughs I do not need anyone to vilify me.

Definition:

vil·i·fy
–verb (used with object), -fied, -fy·ing.
1.to speak ill of; defame; slander.
2.Obsolete. to make vile.

except to say I will not vilify you.

In other words, I am not going to make you the "Bad guy", so get off the pony already!

I am trying real hard to let cooler heads prevail here until you get the lab results back. If you all would like to keep bashing each other until then, carry on...

 

[Lucille]

As women we are programmed to nurture

If you are going to play the woman card, then you will have to point out that this young lady is not being very nurturing toward Ed.

This is a business forum. Ed honored his TOS with the live arrival of the frog which looked healthy in the pix provided. While there are plenty of times I do not side with this seller, I do not think he is to blame in this particular incident.

 

[Chandler Reptiles]

I'm here to defend her because I know she did her research on the husbandry of these frogs. Who are you to question? Dart frogs are not even close. Kelly is a good person and never had anything but nice things to say about everyone including Ed up until this point. She before this Aussie white situation even defended Ed on occasion. She is rightfully mad for being ignored. She is also rightfully mad about being accused of killing her frog by you, ed, and quite a few other people on this forum. She has every right to voice her opinion here since Ed refused to handle this in a private manner.

Since you asked everyone has a right to question something that is posted here without concrete proof.

I see it as someone who went above and beyond their TOS at this point, until we see a report about some other problem it all looks like emotions mixed with confusion right now. Why bring it up until the final reports are in knowing what people expect to see here? Person A sold me a sick animal, I know the pics don't show it but I feel it was sick so I am going to make it an issue until the test comes in that gives the results I want...if it doesn't then what?

Sounds to me like she was pushed over here with only part of the story by people from the other forum and now that she is losing her ground without proof they are trying to defend her with more emotion.

How long is this other test supposed to take before we can see a report on it?

 

[hhmoore]

How long is this other test supposed to take before we can see a report on it?

found in post 186

Our normal turn-around time from receipt is two to four weeks. However during the summer field season, or in the fall when all the field season samples have been sent in, our turn-around can slow to four to six weeks (our current turn-around time as of 8/16/08 for normal samples is ~4 weeks). If you have a need for faster results, for animals in quarantine or a report deadline, please call us. Although we haven’t completely formalized our rush sample times and charges, we can very likely work something out that meets your needs – our fastest sample turnaround time to date was 9 hours (FedEx Priority delivery of the samples in the morning; PCR results emailed by 6 PM!) (currently we have been quoting < 1 week turnaround for $54/sample and < 48 hr turnaround for $108/sample).

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Our Fedex man always puts that message in the system, even when I have took the package out of his hands. It's rather frustrating but doesn't necessarily mean it was left on the porch.

I get this on every package I receive even if I have to pry it from the driver's hot little hand after I sign for it. (my driver knows what's usually in any package I get and he likes to be there when I open them ) I didn't even sign a waiver, so how that got in the system is a complete mystery and try getting off the system--I've tried many many times. They seem to like it there as it never leaves!

Yes, which is why I said this:

Yes, this is not uncommon...But it does throw another wrench into the whole thing since Ed thinks that the first deceased frog was the result of her leaving a package unattended on the front porch.

HOWEVER...

If that is a stipulation in the TOS, tough cookie (unless the seller willing provides the refund/replacement even though the TOS was violated).

I also agree with Sammy:

That is why as a customer you INSIST that you sign for the package AND explain to the driver that the WARRANTY on the package is voided if it says "left on porch".

Speak to your local FedEx hub about the situation...If that doesn't work, go higher.

 

[shrap]

Another thing you can do to cover your backside from the dreaded "left on porch" is to immediately call the seller as soon as you walk back in your front door from getting the package. That way if the Fed Ex guy ignores your signature and still puts "left on porch" you should be covered.

Example. Fed Ex says "left on porch at 9:37 A.M." and you call the seller at 9:38 or 9:39 A.M. stating that you signed for the package. Any experienced seller KNOWS what is going on with Fed Ex and the "left on porch" problems we all have. So any reasonable seller should accept your phone call in this scenario as signing for the package regardless of Fed Ex stating "left on porch". I personally do this every time.

 

[Gecko_Den]

Another thing you can do to cover your backside from the dreaded "left on porch" is to immediately call the seller as soon as you walk back in your front door from getting the package. That way if the Fed Ex guy ignores your signature and still puts "left on porch" you should be covered.

Example. Fed Ex says "left on porch at 9:37 A.M." and you call the seller at 9:38 or 9:39 A.M. stating that you signed for the package. Any experienced seller KNOWS what is going on with Fed Ex and the "left on porch" problems we all have. So any reasonable seller should accept your phone call in this scenario as signing for the package regardless of Fed Ex stating "left on porch". I personally do this every time.

Snap a picture of the box upon delivery and put that in an e-mail to the seller as well. This way you have it documented in case you need it for a BOI defense.

 

[LakesideBoas]

Another thing you can do to cover your backside from the dreaded "left on porch" is to immediately call the seller as soon as you walk back in your front door from getting the package. That way if the Fed Ex guy ignores your signature and still puts "left on porch" you should be covered.

Example. Fed Ex says "left on porch at 9:37 A.M." and you call the seller at 9:38 or 9:39 A.M. stating that you signed for the package. Any experienced seller KNOWS what is going on with Fed Ex and the "left on porch" problems we all have. So any reasonable seller should accept your phone call in this scenario as signing for the package regardless of Fed Ex stating "left on porch". I personally do this every time.

That's exactly what I do. I'm usually on the phone while I am opening the box. Besides, every seller I've used is just as nervous about shipping as I am and it's nice to tell them all is well as soon as possible.

You should definitely check out fatfrogs.

without reading all of the threads including the ones on fat frogs.

like you did on fatfrogs

If I wanted to join FatFrogs forums I would. I am not going to sign up for yet another forum to come to a conclusion (or not) on a thread posted HERE. I should not have to. It looks like a cool website and I am not knocking it, BUT, this issue was brought HERE and should be looked at HERE. If there is a relevent post on FatFrogs then take a screen shot and post it- HERE.

Hopefully when Kelly gets the CF results they will be posted HERE.

 

[MiIguanaLvr]

Is there an ETA on the CF results? If it was stated earlier, I apologize. There are a lot of posts to sift through and I couldn't find where it had been mentioned.

Thanks