Fauna, the BOI, and Favouritism...

[Rebel Dragons]

I have no problem with Wendy and her husband. I do however disagree with some of there statements. Now that I have a bit better knowledge of their backround. I can see some of what they said and why they said it.

Still diagree with some of what they had to say, but hell it was a debate and I said what I felt at that time and they did the same.

Does that mean I am blackballing them and ganging up on them??? Nope, just don' agree with everything they had to say. I do however hope to see more of them around.

Thats the first time in a while I have really enjoyed debating on here.

I agree to disagree I guess..............

 

[Lucille]

Wes, I certainly agree that sharing is optional. There are many vendors here that have given me advice and I am grateful; but now that you explained about their store I see better where they might be coming from. I would never actually purchase anything from them after a recent unfortunate encounter with one of them, but I certainly see how it is their right to dispense information as they see fit.

I would like to take a moment and thank those who have helped my with info, yourself included Wes, when I bought all these boas recently. I realize that receiving information is a privilege, not a right. I hereby promise that, as I am able, I will in turn help others in the future with whatever reptile knowledge I might gather, as a way of thanking everyone who has helped me in the past.

 

[Karen Hulvey]

When I had my store I finally reached the point that I simply refused to deal with problems people had with their animals if they did NOT purchase from me. It sounds cold, and in a way it is, but when you sell what you know to make your living and have some nimrod buy from someone else to save 5 dollars and THEN have the nerve to come back to you to find out what's wrong, do you really OWE that nimrod anything? I say NO.

OMG is that what I should be doing? I work at a mom & pop reptile store and I couldn't even begin to count how many idiots call us or come in every single day asking all kinds of idiotic questions about the animal they bought at another pet shop. The other pet shop won't even get the snakes out for the customers because the employees are afraid of them.

Today someone called about hatchling BP they bought from the other shop. They told her to feed it crickets. All she wanted to know was how to make it eat crix. I told her BPs don't eat crix. She actually argued w/me and told me that they most certainly do eat crickets because the lady at the othet pet shop was feeding it crickets. So I told her to call the other pet shop. And while she was at it maybe buy a book on ball pythons. She hung up on me.

I'm going to follow your and the Wedeking's lead, (since I'm always on your bandwagon anyway) and not give out any more info to noncustomers. It does seem cruel to the lay person and especially cruel to the aniamls but when you're inundated every single day with the most stupid questions, you have to draw a line. I've been doing this for 5 years now and it's older than old.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

While I agree with being "cold" to some customers in the pet industry (as I have been in those situations described countless times) I found it is important to be able to read each individual carefully. Some people are just innocent victims of others stupidity and others are just plain stupid............

And anyone who knows what I am talking about will agree with me there.

 

[Lucille]

Here is a compromise that should make everyone happy:

I am for helping as many people as I can; so why not, when you get a question that you do not have the time or inclination to answer, send the person asking the question to the Fauna Forums?
I feel the Forums are underutilized as a way to give and get information, and I think the reason is that many people just don't take the time to go and look through them and see the good people and good information available there.

The strength of Fauna is its people, giving and sharing; send those needing answers to the Forums and I think everyone will benefit.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

While I agree that that's a great idea Lucille and something I will do, my post above was aimed more at the people who come into the pet store and ask questions in that setting.

Must of the time you can reach them and they will listen but OMG you get some that know EVERYTHING.................. At times like that I would look at them and say " Well if you know, why are you talking to me? Your waisting both our time" and as they are walking away I add " BTW Thanks for sharing, your now the dumbest "smart" person I know"

 

[Wilomn]

While I agree with being "cold" to some customers in the pet industry (as I have been in those situations described countless times) I found it is important to be able to read each individual carefully. Some people are just innocent victims of others stupidity and others are just plain stupid............

And anyone who knows what I am talking about will agree with me there.

You are correct. However, wnen you deal with people at the retail level, when you spend hours sometimes informing someone of everything they need to know to properly keep the herp they're considering and THEN have that person go to the shop down the street, the one with the reptile IDIOT, not expert, to save 15 lousy bucks and THEN that person comes BACK to you because "you know so much more than the guy at the other store," and when you've had THAT happen 5 or 10 or a hundred times, you start to wonder why you should help them at all.

I did not have that attitude when I first opened my shop but after a few years of it going on, after a few dozen or hundreds, who REALLY knows, times of helping people out and having them purchase elsewhere and THEN come back to me, it got to the point where I said, "enough is enough. buy from me and I'm your go to guy, buy from them and you're on your own."

I've spent most of my life studying and learning and keeping a plethora of animals, and I'm good at it. When I had my shop I sold myself and my experiance as well as my stock. I was NOT obligated to help some cheapass customer that was willing to listen to me because I was good at what I did but wasn't willing to spend 50 bucks on a captive bred ball python, that they would ONLY have to BUY once from me, when they could get an import for 20 bucks from the dweeb down the street.

I used to tell them, when they asked of the price difference, that they could buy ONCE from me and have a snake that would live for years OR but one or two or maybe three imports, go through the fecal check, vet check, feeding hassles and STILL not have the quality I could provide right out of the gate.

When it's your kid not eating, figuratively, you have a different attitude than is presented here, where it's just a bunch of snake folks talking snakes. Plus, I don't do it for a living anymore so I am not so jaded as once I was.

Even when I sell now I am still generally on the upper end of what the market will bear. I don't sell crap and I don't sell cheap. Deal with me and you've got a reptile expert not a reptile idiot to come back to. THAT has value to me.

Even now, with people like tasha mcclintock, too stupid to realize that they are as stupid as they are, I won't go out of my way to help them. She, and they,the ones like her, have made their choices and did NOT, figuratively, choose me and I do NOT feel the need to bail them out when they get into trouble.

Guess I've still got some mercinarial properties living inside me. So, I guess if you would like to liken me to a whore as well, in this case I fit the bill. Pay me and I'm all for helping you out. Go to the reptile idiot just to save yourself a few bucks, after you've had it explained to you WHY his are cheaper, and you can just keep on going to him, my door is closed to you.

Welllllll, not really, not today, but I hope you can see how some feel the way they do. IF I were doing this for a living I would NOT be so free with the knowledge I try to be of assistance with. For now and for me, it is NOT my livlihood and so has LESS monitary value than it does to those who do reptiles as their mainstay.

If you were an auto mechanic, would you tell people how to repair the cars they brought you AFTER they had been to the auto idiot down the street, after they had come to YOU for an estimate and left because you were a bit more expensive but actually KNEW what you were doing? Or would you tell them to go back to the guy who fixed it originally and have him fix it right?
Remember too, that we are NOT talking about the first or tenth or twentieth time that this had happened. We are talking about a consistent train of cheapo customers who won't pay for what you know and what you're worth. As a business man, you're better off without them.

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Wes, man your making me feel bad here. I know what you are talking about completely. I ME, MYSELF am not as jaded as some others that have spoke out here. I have said in other posts I am too trusting, too happy go lucky, blah blah blah.......

I do see yours and Wendys points. I guess I just have not been overwhelemed with enough stupidity to understand how someone would not offer another help no matter what the reason. But I can guarantee you the day will come. Tosha and a few others are seeing to that.

 

[Wilomn]

Right again Mike.

It's a WHOLE different game when it puts food on your table, or not as the case may be. You have to decide what your time is worth, in ACTUAL dollars, and then stand behind that decision.

If you own your own store, and the nut you need to crack on a daily basis is, let's be generous and say, 300.00. If you only work a ten hour day, you have to make 30.00 dollars an hour. IF you spend only three hours talking to people that will NOT buy from you, fixing the problems brought about by them NOT buying from you, you now have a 7 hour day and must make 42.50 an hour. If you factor in the fact that while you are dealing with these folks you are most likely NOT feeding and cleaning and dealing with OTHER customers, it gets frustrating. See how it goes? In retail you can't have ZERO return on YOUR time or you have shortfalls EVERYWHERE else.

And, and this is the REAL kicker, the better your reputation gets the MORE people come to you with their PROBLEMS but not necessarily their MONEY.

If you can't separate the chaff from the wheat, you're unemployed. The line has to be drawn to survive.

 

[Wilomn]

One more thing that will perhaps bring home this part of this off topic post.

The 42.50 I am referring to above is the BREAK EVEN point, the point at which it has not COST you anything to be open. You still haven't MADE a single dollar, but it hasn't cost you anything to open the doors.

If YOU want to make only 100.00 a day then you need to make 40.00 an hour with no dweebish sidtracking or 59.00 dollars an hour with dweebish sidetracking. It doesn't sound like much but when you have to do it EVERY HOUR you're open, EVERY day you're open, it ads up fast. If during only ONE hour you make ZERO, you then up the anti by at LEAST another 4.40 an hour, or 44.40 with NO interuptions or 6.60 an hour to bring it to 65.60 an hour with dweebish interuptions. It just snowballs from there. If you want to make any money you've got to decide WHO you want to deal with, the guy who spends money in your store or the dweeb who doesn't.

What's YOUR time worth?

 

[dwedeking]

I have no problem with Wendy and her husband. I do however disagree with some of there statements.

Mike,

I have no problem with disagreements. Hell, I encourage it. When you disagree with me, it gives me pause to contemplate other's point of view. I have long sense aged past the point when I think my view is the only view.

I would never actually purchase anything from them after a recent unfortunate encounter with one of them,

Lucille,

I think that is an excellent idea. The "unfortunate event" is that I have little to no respect for you or your posts.

Wes,

I respect you. You have the fortunate persepctive of seeing both sides of this business. I appreciate your comments towards Wendy's point of view. And while we do not always agree, your friendship has intense value.

To those of you out there undecided, I let our posts on this and MANY other forums speak for our willingness to share with the community. There are many both hobbists (sp?) and competitors which we have freely shared our experiences in this industry (and other industries) with. And we have also gathered much knowledge from others about this industry. Our disappointment in the placing of a price tag on a valuable tool to the industry has been shown in our very vocal statements concerning this action. We feel that it places an undue burden upon the impartiality that we felt was previously shown. One of the benefits of owning your own business (at least in our minds) is the ability to state your opinion freely. If such a statement costs us business then that is the price of our freedom.

Critical Bill, some day hopefully we will meet and I will be able to discuss more in depth your "whore" comment towards my wife.

 

[Wilomn]

Critical Bill, some day hopefully we will meet and I will be able to discuss more in depth your "whore" comment towards my wife.

bill, Dan is almost as big as I am. You might want to back down on that one a bit. Besides, I like Wendy too.

Perhaps you were speaking metaphorically, or merely alluding to whoring and NOT really inferring that Wendy was one...... yes, that would be a good approach to take, that you were MISunderstood.

 

[dwedeking]

Why, Wes, I don't think that Bill's oversize'ness should preclude him from using proper english. I am sure it was just a misunderstanding of words and he needed a little education.

 

[Wilomn]

Why, Wes, I don't think that Bill's oversize'ness should preclude him from using proper english. I am sure it was just a misunderstanding of words and he needed a little education.

Yo Monster,

I was inferring that YOU were not much smaller than ME and that bill may want to give consideration to just whose wife and friend he was insulting in such fashion.

 

[W.Wedeking]

We aren't going to get into this size argument again are we??? Cause I lost the measuring tape and the last time that I couldn't sit down for a week!

 

[Rebel Dragons]

Mike,

I have no problem with disagreements. Hell, I encourage it. When you disagree with me, it gives me pause to contemplate other's point of view. I have long sense aged past the point when I think my view is the only view.

I'm glad, I have not had a good debate like that in some time. I agree with your statement above 100% I unlike sooo many others look at these forums as a place to debate, have fun, and learn something all at the same time. Too many people take them to another level where they let the forums affect their day to day lives.

I just this morning a lil after midnight received an email saying I was a pushover because I stopped hounding you because Wes threatened me into it and I am just kissing Wes' ass. I have not laughed so hard in days...............

Obviously they have not learned or noticed that I cast my own shadow in life and refuse to follow in someone else's.

I am sure one day I will go toe to toe with Wes, but until then I ain't gonna sweat it.

WES YOU DON"T SCARE ME!!!!

 

[WebSlave]

Rich,
I was mearly pointing out that we have been big supporters of this site. If you like I can point out some of the other ways we have supported this site (and you) as well. People here seem to think that because my Husband and I do not agree with the pay system (or anyone else who doesn't agree) are against this site (or you personally) and that is not how it is at all.

There are certain areas that are pay to post.

Yes, there are. And why is that? What is it about those few forums where this is in effect that has gotten some people so uptight? Is it because they felt I was obligated to do this for free for all eternity? Is it because they felt that I should simply have to put up with every Tom, Dick, and Harry that would get suspended and be right back in 5 minutes under a new alias? Is it because they felt that there were no changes needed to try to bring the BOI up to the next level, which can ONLY be done by weeding out the junk posts, the anonymous garbage, and putting a bit more credibility into WHO is saying WHAT there? What is it EXACTLY about that $10 hurtle that has some people so uptight? I tried to query Dan privately about that, but he obviously is not interested in discussing this. So maybe you can be more open about it, Wendy.

I wasn't insinuating that others experience and knowledge were of less value, but pointing out some of my feelings/opinions. And if I have these opinions/feelings there are others who have the same. But most do not express them here as they get dogpiled by the "Included" and/or are bombarded with negative rep points.

Maybe, maybe not. I haven't really seen that happen to anyone who presents a well thoughtout and presented argument in any forum here. But generally a "dogpile" debate will get the same shoveled onto it. Actually I surmised that the people that disagreed with my actions would just leave. I felt that was a risk and I was prepared to accept it. I guess I just don't understand what people hope to gain by hanging around simply to tell me over and over again that they disagree with what I did. All they have to do is to go away and then come back in a year or so to see if they can lay that "I told you so" on me.

No, I do not necessarily hand out information to anyone who wants it. I am a busy women who takes care of phone, internet and in-store customers and I take care of all my breeders/babies/eggs. Those who have purchased animals/supplies from us are given priority and I do consider that since they have made a purchase, they have also paid for my expertise. Potential customers also get the benifits of my expertise so they can make informed purchases.

Well, I am sorry. I guess I just didn't understand. I didn't realize that people came to your shop and contacted you in other manners to inquire about subjects that are common fare on the BOI. And they are willing to pay you for that as well, huh? Well, sorry about my misunderstanding. I guess that explains it. I knew it couldnt' be the money, and here I was thinking it was some obscure principle thing.

"Knowledge kept capped up in your head really isn't of much value to anyone else, now is it?"

That is pretty much my point. Excluding people does the same thing. From what I see, you are ending up with a small group of people who think one way and that is it. There is no objectivity. There are no alternatives.

Sorry, but I just don't see it that way. What is the hurtle to those people who choose to be excluded? The fee or the principle? I purposely kept the fee as low as possible to try to reduce that as being a severe problem. Yeah, it is for a few people, I suspect, but for the majority, sorry, I just can't see that as being the case. So is it principle, then? Well if so, then there is no objectivity here because of this particular principle we are talking about? People who are excuding themselves because of this nebulous principle have destroyed the objectivity of the BOI by them choosing to stay away? Please, tell me how so. As I said I just don't see it. I don't see how people on one side of the line that refuse to cross over has become such a dividing line that makes the other people that are here so biased and subjective. All of the people who have felt that the BOI, and this site in general is worth paying a bit to keep around are flawed in some way? They all think the same way because they chose to spend a few bucks to be here? I didn't realize that $10 had such power. And it removes objectivity as well, huh? Sorry, I do hate to be so dumb, but please explain to me how this is so. I am curious about the psychological mechanism at work that would create such an atmosphere.

The whole reason my Husband and I came here in the first place is that it was professional and objective. There was a certain air of respect and decorum even if you didn't like/agree with someone. The objective of the BOI was to root out bad guys, use peer pressure in a professional way to help clear up misunderstandings and encourage those who are in the business to remain professional so the Reptile industry would look better as a whole. I think that has most definately been lost.

Um, perhaps you were on a different Board of Inquiry. I had problems right off of the bat in the year 2000 when I first started up the BOI with anonymous postings, cat fights, and all the other garbage. This was before you were ever even here and the crap was flowing freely. Trust me when I tell you you have absolutely NO idea the work I had to do behind the scenes cleaning up one mess after another.

Again, how so were the qualities you speak of lost simply by requiring some credibility in the persons now able to post on the BOI? A LOT of people felt that the BS posting, anonymous registrations, and completely frivolous posting had degraded the BOI to the point of uselessness. Your explanation seems to completely fly in the face of what I had seen going on, and MANY people have commented on, prior to the implementation of the paid system. If anything, the BOI had always been much less "professional" just from the problems I identified above. It was tough going on my part to even keep it slightly acceptable, much less professional. Way too many people were able to give themselves false pats on the back, or else to make it look like multiple people were having negative encounters with someone else. It was bad enough when we had less then 2,000 members here, but it had become completely unmanageable when the numbers got into 5 digits. Quite honestly, and I thought transparently to many people, the BOI had no CHOICE but to change or die at that point. I guess if anything, I am completely mesmerized by the fact that some people would even think that it could go on like it was.

The truth is, it makes me very sad that it comes to this. We (my Husband and I both) consider you a friend, and it pains both of us to have to make a stand this way. But neither of us thinks that we would be much of a friend if all we did was tell you what you wanted to hear.

Why sure. Lots of friends of mine will make friendly little jabs like

It will be less than the money I mistakenly donated in the past.

(along with other "friendly" gestures) making a stand and being the great friends that they are by not just telling me what I wanted to hear.

Yeah, all my friends do that. I'm quite used to it and don't take any offense at it at all. I mean, what are friends for, after all?

Yes, thank you very much for being my friends. I really did need the support when I was going through this trying time recently.

 

[Chris@TSE]

I guess the question remains..... What would you rather seen Rich do? Continue to rely on advertisers fees and funds from HIS pocket to keep the place going?

People can bitch and gripe all they want....... agree or disagree something needed to be done. I'm sure the very same people bitching now would be singing a different tune later if Rich had listened to their wishes and the board had to impose higher fees than the current measly ten bucks........ or worse, closed.

There are only a small handful of sections restricted to non paying members, im sick and tired of hearing people complain as if they are unable to access the site as a whole. You're here posting arent you? Thats what I thought. Steps were taken to ensure this place will still be here next year and in the years to come. Ten dollars is not much to ask for a paying membership to certain aspects of the forums. Don't like it? Don't pay it. Still want to bitch about it? Why are you still here? Leave. I am honestly sick of hearing it. The BOI is a great resource. If you can honestly say it has not helped you than I MAY listen to your argument, but guess what? You cant. If that "help" assisted you in saving more than ten dollars, which im SURE it has... It's the very least you can do. Otherwise, quit your bitching. Please.

 

[critical bill]

Critical Bill, some day hopefully we will meet and I will be able to discuss more in depth your "whore" comment towards my wife.

Yeah ok. Dan On Fire.

I wasnt calling your wife a whore as prostitute for sex and money. If I was, I would have just come straight out and made her an offer. Fact is, I'm a happily married man and thats not what I think of your wife.

The word WHORE also means this.....

"A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain."

Principle being the animal. Compromised possibly by the information you hold back for lack of personal gain.

Why, Wes, I don't think that Bill's oversize'ness should preclude him from using proper english. I am sure it was just a misunderstanding of words and he needed a little education.

Maybe a misunderstand of the meaning of the word. Sorry if it offended you but I really was watching Hookers on the Point and the hooker said to the john "hell no, you aints gettin no honey with no money fool". I kind of related to what this hooker was saying to what Wendy wrote at the time. Thats all. Every industry has its whores and thats the feeling I got from your wifes post. To me, whores behave this way.

As far as meeting me to discuss this in person.....sure Daniel, whatever you'd like to do I guess. Do you need me to tell you how many times that line has been thrown around in this thread let alone everywhere on the internet or even at me? Take a number brutha. Poor Wes had his spined snapped and fingers bent off not ten pages back. Your statement ranks right up there with "I'll make one phone call" and "do you know who I am?".

If you want to meet me thats fine. Next time I'm in your area attending a show I'll look for you, far away from the INFORMATION BOOTH. Heck thats a free information zone right? That could be our running joke Daniel!

Daniel: ...so the customer says "the info's free?". And I said "Hell no, I said that will cost you three". Ahahahahahahah.

 

[Lucille]

Lucille,

I think that is an excellent idea. The "unfortunate event" is that I have little to no respect for you or your posts.

QUOTE]





That's fine, Daniel. Many people here enjoy my writing; and I write on a wide variety of matters. Most of my writing here is to help people, or to make this site a more enjoyable place to be.

I am in good company, as you have, by your posts, shown a lack of respect for the way Webslave has chosen to run his site. So you do not, it seems, respect very much around here.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions. Respect? In my book, it has to be earned; and seeing your comments toward me, toward Webslave, toward this site; you do not have mine. I am sure that does not matter to you, and after seeing what you have posted on this thread I am not sure what DOES matter to you......