getting " envenomated " can get you ........

[TomO]

Unanswered question

Vinny, are you going to answer my question in post # 147?

 

[Vinny D]

that was a very good article. and sounds good to me, the last thing i want to be doing on here is talking about my bites really. but that story about hot kindergarden was awsome and very true.

 

[Vinny D]

tomo, what was your question? and i get it im not going to say anything about my bites anymore. it's in the past now. now we can learn off each other, thats how i wanted things to go in the first place. "IM SORRY FOR PI$$ING ANY ONE OFF OR BEING OFFENSIVE". i appoligise for everything. so now that we are on the same page we can move on and talk about herps, cuz i know thats what everyone wants including me. thank you all for your being direct maybe thats what i needed. i look at hot's in a different way now because of you guys, thanks again and take care..

sincerely,
Vin D

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Vinny, are you going to answer my question in post # 147?

Slow down a little Vin.

 

[Vinny D]

tomo, i cant measure my level of experience, but i do know what im talking about. when i do visit brint at the zoo he is always talking all kinds of scientific stuff and i understand what he is saying. if someone ask's me a question about a reptiles or something i usually can answer it with out hesatation. i have read many many books about reptiles for over 15 years now. and i have learned alout from them and also internet. i DO NOT know everything about reptiles, if i dont know something i will just simply ask. but i do know for a someone that will be 20 next month, i sure know a damn lot about the world of herpetology. husbandry, breeding and many other thing's. i hope this answers your question, but i liked your question it is something that needed to be put out their. and i truly understand where you are comming from. thanks

Vin D

 

[Junkyard]

Vinny you posted this in another forum but it pertains to here, this was in reply to my post to you. I put in bold what I find very interesting:

JUNKYARD, the shed fang was not a bite and the doctor that treated me is one of the best around just ask AL also known as probos. i have talked to him on the phone and he know's about the shed fang accident. the snake was in my trap box and i was mixing up the substrate. i dont know why people on fauna were looking at me as a LIER because im not. i have nothing againced you junkyard. but i did nothing wrong on fauna. i have been here alout longer and people ask me to tell about my envenomations, so they can learn about them. when i say it on FAUNA im bragging. Dr. Fry knows all about me and my bites and says nothing to put me down as well as wolf gang and PROBOS esp. so can we put all of that FAUNA stuff behind us. and you guys did jump on me like nothing i have ever seen thats the truth. like i said before im not 100% sure if i received all 8 vials, cuz i had an allregic reaction to the SAIMR since it was the second time i received it. PROBOS is going to a PA antivenin bank meeting, and he will post everything about my case. and i will make sure you get it. so lets just put this behind us and move on. im not a lier sorry if i came off to be one but im not, i have no reason to lie about anything ok. take care

JGUYER1, i'ts ok i think the VENOMDOC fourm is the best, on fauna when i was simply telling people about my envenomations "I WAS BRAGGING" so if you do go onto fauna be careful what u say. ohh yeah on fauna im also a lier, which is simply not true, i tell people about my mistakes so other wont do the same. i dont know maybe i did come off wrong to them, but that is no reason to be put under the microscope and be brutally battered like i was. like i said before im sorry if i came off wrong to the people on fauna. but im no lier everything i say is true, and if i dont know it i wont say it or i will ask. i just wanted to clear things up..

Link to Thread

You were bragging? A little twist to your reason for posting story? Did you do this because DizmalDan told you what it was really like here? So you really do not want to be a mentor, you want to brag about escaping death from a snake bite. You are not as safe and mature as you tried to tell everyone you really are.

I ask again. How many more mistakes are you going to make before you decide to start learning from others?

 

[Griz]

Vinny, this is not about a young kid who is bragging. This is not about a kid who has been very lucky (or unlucky depending upon how you see it). This is all about a kid who has done some extremely stupid things in his life and has escaped death several times! This is about the good folks here at Fauna trying to get across to you that your "knowledge" is going to get you killed. This is about the folks here trying to get it through your thick skull that you do not know nearly what you think you do. Despite what you may say, I am one of the many who believe that you like to embellish your stories. I firmly believe that you have lied several times when there was no need to. I do not doubt your envenomations at all. But the circumstances surrounding them are filled with half truths etc.

You need to give up the notion of housing venemous and start handling boids etc until such time that maturity catches up with you. You are still a kid and way too young to be handling the animals that you have. I am not saying this in a condescending way rather it is intended to help you recognize your ignorance pertaining to the husbandry of these potent killers.

Griz

 

[reptilebreeder]

Here's another quote about that

another thing about dried venom in shed fangs. on 12-25-05 i was cleanging my puff adder (bitis aretans) cage and i made the mistake of not wearing glovs, i was moving the bedding around and i felt a prick on my upper hand. so i looked at it and it was bleeding, i rinsed the blood off and saw a shed fang was stuck in my hand. i pulled it out with tweezers and instand pain and swelling. i needed 8 vials of S.A.I.M.R. which is a south african polyvalent used to treat BITIS envenomations. i had a full recover, but i have a nice scar where the necrosis was right behind my pinky nuckle. so when ever your cleaning cages always wear gloves or just dump the old bedding out. the shed fang was so bad i had compartment pressure, but i didnt need surgery thank god.

and he likes to drop names

Dr. Fry knows all about me and my bites and says nothing to put me down as well as wolf gang and PROBOS esp

yet here is a post quoted from TTR that was a reply on venomdoc, from Dr. Wolfgang Wuster

I don't know, someting is odd here. If this was some hyper-toxic Aussie elapid, where a few mg are enough to kil you, then I could believe it (there are documented cases of it happening), but with a puff adder?

Put simply, puff adder venom is not that potent drop for drop or dried crystal for dried crystal - to kill someone, you need something of the order of 50-100 mg of dried venom. 8 vials of SAIMR is the sort of dose you would use for a serious bite that injects a large amount of venom (being a tropical antivenom, SAIMR is both cheap and effective, with a reasonable dosage requirement, unlike our First World Wonders of Technology, like Wyeth dishwater or Yes-I-am-happy-to-remortgage-my-house-CroFab).

Let's take this further: how much venom is contained dried in a shed fang? How much of that is dissolved and absorbed into the flesh in the seconds that the fang was stuck in the skin? Surely only a very tiny fraction of what would be injected in a bite - only a few mg at most.

I have seen snake handlers impale themselves on freshly shed fangs of Bothrops spp., still covered in fresh venom, and suffer nothing more than a mildly swollen digit for a few hours - I have a very hard time understanding how a normal person would get a major envenomation from a puff adder in this way.

I am not doubting that the incident took place, but if it did as described, then there is some extra angle to it that we are missing so far.

A bit of arithmetic on the amount of venom in a fang:

- According to the diagram of a rattlesnake fang longitudinal section in Klauber's epic volume, the diameter of the venom canal in a fang is about 1/20th the length of the fang.

- Let's assume a puff adder fang with a venom canal 1 mm across and 20 mm long (generous, to be sure). The volume of the venom canal would be the radius squared times pi times the length of the fang, or 0.25 * 3.14 * 20 = 15.7 cubic millimetres - call it 16 - that is to say 16 microlitres. If this entire volume of the fang canal was full of liquid venom when the fang was shed (and obviously lost externally, not digested), then the 16 microlitres of venom would weigh approx 16 milligrams. In general, approx. 1/4 of the wet weight of the venom is solids, i.e., the 16 milligrams of wet venom would dry into 4 milligrams of dry venom, i.e., a very small fraction of the usual venom yield of 100-200 mg.

- Taking it further, how much of these 4 mg would be absorbed into tissues from a fang that is accidentally poked into the skin? Anyone who has ever had to wash dried-on spitting cobra venom off their gogges or camera lens knows that venom, once dried, is not that easily or quickly dissolved. Moreover, if the entire venom canal was full of dried venom, the inner parts, away from the two orifices, would be out of reach of the tissue fluids that might dissolve it. So, my guess is that less than half of the venom that might possibly be in the fang would ever get into the wound, or in this example 2 mg - compared to a lethal dose of 50-100 mg.

Given that the 8 vials of SAIMR antivenom for puff adder bites (likely to have injected at least 10s if not 100s of mg of venom ) would be considered a large dose, this simply does not compute. Either the patient had some sensitivity reaction (does that make sense from the symptoms?) and the antivenom was given in error, or we are missing something else here.

There have been documented cases of serious envenomation from puncture wounds from dried Australian elapid skulls, so the concept as a whole is not absurd, but this particular case raises more questions than it can answer.

Cheers,

WW

Notice also the date; 12-05, so if it really did happen then he has had three incidents involving hospitalization, and AV, in two years. Technically not a bite, but still a hot related stupid incident. WOW, glad he is an expert otherwise he would have probably had 7 or 8 incidents by now, or be dead.

 

[hhmoore]

mmm mmhmmMmmhmmhmm MMM hmmhmmMmmhmmhmm ummmhmmhmmMmm hmm mmhmmphmmMmmph Hmmm?
(I'm keeping my mouth shut)

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

i have read many many books about reptiles for over 15 years now. and i have learned alout from them and also internet.

Not to pick on You, but reading and comprehension are completely different. Your spelling is atrocious, even with simple words. Usually a lot of reading increases ones vocabulary and spelling abilities.
That being said, are you sure you "comprehended" what was being said in the books? You say you read alout, (it's a lot, or alot BTW) but how many, and which ones? How many do you still have for referrence? Where they written By people with education like BW or Mader, etc? Or small basic info books from keepers who fancy themselves pros? Anyone can get a book published, even self proclaimed pros. The market is full of them. Hell, I could write one if I knew how to spell better. Nah, not My style.

Rick

 

[TomO]

Vinny. One of the most telling items for me is your account of handling a coral snake at six years of age (going by memory here, I think I have it right). I may have missed it, but I did not read any accompanying warning for other children to avoid handling venomous animals. This is certainly a teaching point, and you might consider including a warning when you tell that one. I'm sure you are warming up to it, and will get to it eventually, because I am sure that your wisdom and experience tells you to warn against that one more than bragging about it.

 

[Griz]

One other thing to remember, Vinny, in writing, apologized to the seller of his viper for kissing the snake on the head and free handling it. Does not sound too much like an expert to me. It's only a matter of time Vinny before the grim reaper decides that he's not going to be nice anymore.

Griz

 

[pasam]

everyone who ask's me a question or any of the reptile semanar's i do, people think im great
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know this is old thread but I fear for the children he is teaching, they may be led to believe that you can be bitten by a hot snake and be ok. My kids who love snakes I would hope would not go out catching any snakes, the rules are you can not touch any snakes here. In NV we caught Bull Snakes to relocate them so people would not kill them but it is easy to tell a bull from a rattler, we just moved to PA and we dont know the snakes so the rule is set in stone no touching, poking or anything of any snakes. Some kids may think they can be bitten and its ok after a few days at the DR.

For me It just confirms I dont want hot snakes not strong enough for them. This could be scary and he may get a law suit himself.

 

[Rattlesnake]

You are correct in your assumption WEBSLAVE.

I find it highly unlikely that any bite from ANY EDB that was not a dry bite would not exhibit any substantial tissue damage because of it.

 

[hhmoore]

I can't even bring myself to say it, lol.
I'm being good, Tim.
I deleted my first 3 responses, bit my tongue, taped my fingers together, and moved on.

 

[Tim Cole]

I have

been grateful that he hasn't posted for awhile. Maybe he has gotten the hint?
Lets not and move on.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

You are correct in your assumption WEBSLAVE.

I find it highly unlikely that any bite from ANY EDB that was not a dry bite would not exhibit any substantial tissue damage because of it.

We covered that one too. There are a couple links supplied in earlier posts which offer evidence to his story. Sorry to say, but things are changing in the reptile world, at a pretty fast rate.

Not that I want to

Rick

 

[Vinny D]

First of all i never kissed the bush viper. im not that stupid ok, and im not going to start this again. so why cant we drop it. I havent been on in a while because of school and work and thats why i havent posted." I DIDNT GET THE CLUE SORRY", but i will say. i do know alout about reptiles and again i learned from my stupid mistakes. the semanars i do teach kids and adults about reptiles, and if your not careful what they can do. And i caught that coral snake when i was 6yrs old in kindergarden. i have told you people that im not lying, but i guess you all dont beleve it, so what can i say.

 

[Tim Cole]

You've said enough...

To educate people in the PROPER husbandry skills requires you to know and practice them for many years. Doing it wrong does not constitute PROPER experience on your part. Maybe you should partake in a venomous discussion by listening and learning rather than brandishing your mistakes.

Get a mentor and join us in a couple years.

 

[Vinny D]

Tim, i understand that, but im not going tell people wrong information. i am all about safty in venomous snakes since my accidents. do you people really think i am that stupid come on really. and like i said i dont have hots or work with them as of now, since im going to school. so why dont we just drop all of this. and talk herps, because i have listned to most of your information. and all the talking down on me is just getting old.