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Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

Selling deformed animals... Opinions?

  • Wow! Eyeless animals are cool, I can't wait to be the first on my block to own a scrub that can't se

    Votes: 8 3.7%
  • There is nothing wrong with selling a deformed animal and using it as a breeder, although it shouldn

    Votes: 9 4.2%
  • There IS something wrong with selling a deformed animal or using it as a breeder, it should be given

    Votes: 143 66.2%
  • Why wasn't this thing culled the minute it hatched? It's dangerous and has no monetary value except

    Votes: 56 25.9%

  • Total voters
    216
"It does not need to be killed, period."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Tanith. I disagree, however. I believe the animal should have been culled when it first showed up in the clutch ... especially if there were two of them, as it seems there were.

But, people are people when it comes to stuff like this. You cannot trust them to do the responsible thing with animals that pose a great risk to an entire species. That's why this animal, in my opinion, needs to be culled. Then, there are no accidental breedings or surprises later.
 
sorry for the attack darin...but the animal will not be killed....i can promise you that...as far as breeding it, from what ive read and from what yasser has stated it is a difficult feat to tackle to begin with. yasser appears to know a great deal more than i and if the project of his is ongoing for over 5 years, i'm certainly not going to attempt it.
but to the account of not having the eyeless scrubs appear, as i stated before that is no one persons decision to decide what the entire herping world gets to choose from. what you and i deem to be an acceptable animal to be bred and sold will not be the same 5 minutes later posing the question to another person.

i saw first hand once the animal was on exhibit at the expo this weekend what the response truelly was. it was amazing and their is a HUGE interest from other herpers in owning one...as i said, unfortunatley it would be an almost impossible task for me to do, so it more than likely won't come to forwishen. simple fact is that if i could i would...scrubs are generally only handled by owners who have a somewhat vast experience in handling them due to the "in-general" temperment of this species. the purchaser would of course be made aware that this snake is het for eyeless and carries a gene that seems only to be in the patternless of the species, but can be carried by the other scrubs from the clutch carrying. for whatever reason this scrub does not exhibit the typical demeanor of most scrubs...it is not aggressive towards us as many of the people who got to experience the animal first hand have stated. not to say it won't bite (obviouslly it will and does) bu so has every other snake i've owned.

no one person or collective group of people get to make the decision for an entire worldwide community of owners, breeders and collectors. if the animal were bred and deemed by the market to be worthless, then it would be novelty worth very little money if any that would more than likely show the breeder the error in his ways. OR, on the flip side, maybe the market shows that since these animals are so rare and do not seem to show any signs of deterioration in captivity and are quite healthy, then the market decides that are worth a great deal simply for the lack of eyes.

more than likely we will never know, but as you said...can't be sure what the future holds.
 
I agree with the fact that this animal or any showing any kind of genetic malformation should never be bred. To me that is a non-issue. Anyone purposely reproducing this animal is obviously in this hobby for the wrong reason and cares not for the wellfare of animals.

Wether the animal in question or any other with a deformity should be put down I think is a personal issue and there is no clear right and wrong. So long as the animal is never reproduced, wether it is allowed to live out it's life is a secondary issue that will IMO always be a subject of intense debate.

I truly understand both sides to that issue. Those wanting to euthanize the animal are garanteed that it will not be reproduced either intentionally or accidentally. A clear and easy way to resolve the first issue.

Then there are those who would like to see the animal live out it's life as long as it's not reproduced. That is perfectly fine IMO but unfortunately it can't be garanteed. That animal has to be placed in the care of someone who understands the situation and will never breed the animal and care for it for the rest of its days. Such people aren't found easily and in the reptile world, animals are often sold and traded. To be assured that an animal like this never reproduced means to have it be in the right hands it's entire life which is very hard to achieve and especially garantee.

I tend to go both ways on the issue. But the only person I would trust in the second option would be myself. I wouldn't take the chance of letting such an animal out of my hands and risking that it may eventually fall in the wrong hands.

Now for a question that touches on this issue and that has been on my mind for quite some time is: Can snakes be sterilized safely?

I ask because I will be breeding albino boas myself in a year or two. Should the worse case scenario happen and I have birth defects in my offspring (knocks on wood) I would definitely not sell the offspring that could be reproduced. I would consider having them sterilized as well as the parents and then sell them at reduced rates for what they are.

If it's possible I think it could be a viable solution as the garantee that the defective animals won't be reproduced is there. I'm sure there are quite a few people who would gladly take in a low cost designer sterile snake as a pet, so long as the deformity wouldn't interfere with the quality of life of the snake, i.e. blindness.

So the question is, what are the facts on the sterilization of snakes?

Anny Harocopos
 
Humm! all This About a Scrub!

WOW! Glenn, I was impressed with your Scrub! I would not think any of this makes any difference to any of us who know you. Your animal is a very healthy snake and I'm sorry I did not take pic's of it at my table while you were there. I did not know all this was going on in the BOI's, until my wife said something to me about it.

I can not get into the genetics of this issue over why or what, I am not a rocket scientist LMAO! But as for all who think he does not have such an animal, I'm sorry but he does and it is a nice animal, which was born with no eyes, that is 12' and very healthy! He never showed any signs of being an aggressive snake while I / and others were looking at it.

As for the accidental bite at the show, well it could of happened with anyone wether it be yours with no eyes or someone elses with eyes docile or not. Lynn IMO! made a mistake in having the scent of a food source on her which triggered the bite which is a common mistake that we have all made at one point or another. Lynn is a friend of yours and most all who was there.

This thread is really going nowhere at this point, everyone should either drop it or get it back to where it belongs and think of the questions that were asked and consider all the morph boas and other animals with such wierd defects that people would buy just because of the defect. Six legged turtles, two headed snakes and soforth. Albino boas with defects or born with out eyes that are sold just for breeding reasons! But I am not going to lay down any judgement on any of which. All are just statments formed IMO!
 
Randall, sweetie, I certainly agree you are not a rocket scientist if your are teeling folks on THIS board what they 'should' be doing lol.....
 
Darin Chappell said:
As to Tanith's statement about the painfulness of freezing snakes, well I have no idea how one could know that for a fact, but that is of little import to my position. I care not for the manner of euthanizing the animal, so long as it ends in the same desired result.

I know this for a fact because it is an established standard of modern veterinary medicine. I couldn't cite the research right offhand, but a number of well published authorities in reptile medicine who are presenting their work at veterinary conferences have made a firm point of stating this fact in their lectures and workshops. The freezer is not humane euthanasia for reptiles.

It's also simple physics. A commercial blast freezer can get the core temperature of a thick piece of meat down to levels that could not sustain life in a reptile pretty quick, but a standard home freezer may take more than an hour to freeze an adult snake all the way through to the core. That is what it takes to actually kill them, and in the meantime, cold torpor is paralytic but has no anesthetic or analgesic effect. So the snake can't move while it slowly freezes to death and its outside tissues crystallize. That is considered to be a painful process.


But, people are people when it comes to stuff like this. You cannot trust them to do the responsible thing with animals that pose a great risk to an entire species. That's why this animal, in my opinion, needs to be culled. Then, there are no accidental breedings or surprises later.

Surgical sterilization produces the same results without taking an animal's life. So does keeping it in a cage away from other snakes. But what it really boils down to is that you'd rather kill a snake than pay for surgery or be personally responsible for keeping it. These are legitimate options.

Iguanas are being spayed and neutered quite routinely now, and there are a number of vets who will do this procedure endoscopically. Snakes are also routinely spayed after surgically correcting a dystocia. Two veterinarians whom I have seen give presentations on the subject at conferences are Stephen Hernandez-Divers of College of Veterinary Medicine in Georgia and Doug Mader of the Marathon Veterinary Hospital in Florida.
 
Originally posted by Pixie Now for a question that touches on this issue and that has been on my mind for quite some time is: Can snakes be sterilized safely?

Absolutely yes. It may be difficult to find an experienced reptile veterinarian who can do the procedure, but it can be done. Neutering can be done in a minimally invasive way through an endoscope. Spaying tends to be a little more complicated, but it's still do-able. Check www.arav.org for a list of reptile specialist veterinarians near you.

I ask because I will be breeding albino boas myself in a year or two. Should the worse case scenario happen and I have birth defects in my offspring (knocks on wood) I would definitely not sell the offspring that could be reproduced. I would consider having them sterilized as well as the parents and then sell them at reduced rates for what they are.

I expect the surgery would run from $200-400. This would be a viable way to dispose of non breedable animals - have them sterilized, then sell them for the price of this surgery as what they are - attractive and rare pet snakes with a birth defect that no one will be ever able to breed even if they were foolish enough to try.

You could display and pre-sell the animals, have a would be pet adopter pay the vet bill directly, then the animal will be released to them once the surgery is complete and the animal is guaranteed unable to breed for life.
 
snakegetters said:
Absolutely yes. It may be difficult to find an experienced reptile veterinarian who can do the procedure, but it can be done. Neutering can be done in a minimally invasive way through an endoscope. Spaying tends to be a little more complicated, but it's still do-able. Check www.arav.org for a list of reptile specialist veterinarians near you.

Thank you very much for your response, this information reassures me and gives me a good course of action should the worse case scenario happen with my albino breeding.

I am lucky to have a very reputable and experienced reptile vet in my city and although the surgeries would be expensive, I'm sure there could be a "deal" for having multiple snakes sterilized should the need arise.

I would just hate to have to kill off snakes with a viable deformation (i.e. blindness). I wouldn't dare reproduce either of the parents and they would be sterilized also but to have the option of sterilizing the offspring (I would imagine that I would need to wait till they grew up some first) comforts me.

I know of quite a few hobbyist that would gladly accept a blind albino boa that's been sterilized as a nice pet.

Thanks again,
Anny
 
"But what it really boils down to is that you'd rather kill a snake than pay for surgery or be personally responsible for keeping it."

No, that's not what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth. What I actually DID say in this thread was:

"That being the case, let me state clearly: I believe it is imparative to make certain that this animal (or any like it) never breeds, by whatever means are necessary. If that were possible by simply keeping it isolated as a "pet," then fine, but I have no confidence that such is to be the case here. Even with the best of intentions, one can never tell what will happen "down the road" with an animal as it changes hands. However, once it's been culled, I can KNOW for a certainty that it will never pass the deformity on to another generation."

Tanith,

That quotation came from the very post from which you gleaned the other section of my writing quoted above. In fact, it is the paragraph DIRECTLY above that which you quoted, so I have a hard time believing that you simply missed this. Since this is in complete opposition to what you have attributed to me, I expect you to stop saying that I would just rather kill this snake than to have it truly isolated by responsible keepers. It's not true.

However, responsible keepers are few and far between, and Mr. McDonald, given how he has approached this eyelessness as the next possible step in snake evolution, does not strike me as one who fits the bill. Therefore, given the small genepool of the species in question, in THIS instance, I think that animal ought to be euthanized.

You don't want it frozen? Fine, I agree that other methods may be better. "In the freezer" has come to many to stand as a euphamism for euthanization as opposed to an actual method, I believe. But I do know many that freeze animals that are on death's doorstep or need to be culled for some reason. Granted they are smaller snakes, because those with whom I deal are mostly cornsnake breeders.

However, your analogy to the thickness of the meat being frozen over a long period of time doesn't seem to hold much water for me. It seems to me that once the head is frozen, the animal is dead and feeling no pain, regardless of whether the core on a big snake is frozen or not. The skull, on even the largest pythons, is relatively thin and not particularly well insulated with fat deposits. So, I still think that it is hard for anyone to say that freezing is a horrible form of euthanizing a snake from a "pain" management perspective, but I certainly defer my opinion toward those who are actual experts.
 
Tanith,

Correct me if I'm wrong, as you seem to be very well versed in these topics, isn't there a procedure known as "cryoanesthesia" where cold is used to anesthesize? Don't people that suffer from frost bite will only suffer pain only once their extremities are warmed up again?

Regards.
 
Just to add to the flood of similar comments; while i'm against euthanasia for any animal not in clear physical distress, there is no way I could support an animal with a clear physical such as this breeding.

Ultimately, however, I don't think it matters all that much. Yes, it's somewhat unethical. However, it's highly unlikely to become an issue, since the market isn't that big; and the deformity is not such as to render the animal unviable without special care -- normal pet care should be adequate. Eyesight in snakes is at most a co-primary sense, more often a secondary one; and more important to avoiding predators than it is for finding food. Nor is this animal likely to pollute the gene pool since it is 1) not likely to be released into the wild and 2) will not survive long if it is.

Highly specialized breeding and hybridization has been going on in numerous species throughout history. Nearly all dogs are the result of this sort of breeding, and many have serious health problems because of it. Unfortunate, but not likely to change anytime soon. And since almost none of the more extreme variants will survive in the wild, there is no real danger of contamination of wild species (less extreme variants will interbreed and eventually achieve a set of median forms which will encompass the better traits of the various sub-groups).

Regarding the differences between morphs and more severe traits like the eyelessness; I agree that the differences is one of kind, not of degree. Colour morphs are an environmental adaptation -- while albinoism/anerythrism/leucicism/etc. often results in a less survivable animal, this is due exclusively to the environment, the fact that the animal no longer blends in well with it's surroundings. This is why regional variations exist -- a colour that may make the snake highly visible in one location, may make it almost invisible in another. (There is a study on this phenomenon involving a species of moth, which I'm too lazy to look up right now.) So the morph can actually confer benefits to the animal. Eyelessness, however, is a true disability that can only negatively impact the animal's survivability. It has no benefits whatsoever. There are no naturally-occuring blind reptile species that I'm aware of (the misnamed "Blind-worm" snakes notwithstanding, since they do have eyes and are able to differentiate light and dark patterns at the very least); and deep caves are not environments where herps are capable of surviving, due to the cold temperatures.

Mostly, I just see a lot of over-reacting and demonization from both sides. No, I don't think Glen is acting ethically, but I hardly think that he's likely to destroy the herp world either. There are far worse sellers and breeders out there to worry about. My biggest gripe with him is not the snake so much as it is the possible misrepresentation involved in his advertising of it and possible offspring, should the trait prove genetic.

A couple other notes, sort of pet peeves. Once a trait is bred out, chances are not good that it can be bred back in, unless external bloodlines displaying that trait are added to the gene pool. This is particularly true with traits on the dominant end of the spectrum -- once they are bred out, then the only traits that are left are recessive (with recessive traits, it's far more difficult to tell if they've been completely bred out or not).

A bigger pet peeve is the whole "heightened senses compensating for disabilities" thing. As the term has been used in this thread, it is pretty much a misconception and scientific fallacy. The existence of a disabled sense does not automatically confer superiority to any of the other senses. The reason that it appears to be the case is that those other senses are more relied upon, and therefore is better trained to use those senses as primary.

Incidentally, the only time I have ever seen this claimed is for blind people, never for the deaf, or those with disabled olfactory or taste senses. Humans are predominantly a visual animal, and rely primarily on their eyesight. Sound and touch are secondary senses, as are taste and smell (though the last two are rarely depended upon, and can even be relegated to tertiary senses for most people).

The loss of a primary sense results in the individual being more dependent upon secondary senses, thus training them to a much higher degree than is commonly done. This is not something that is unique to the disabled, however; and it is perfectly possible for non-disabled individuals to train secondary senses to a similar, or even greater, degree. Just talk to any professional classical musician, or even better, Navy sonar operator (actually, I've never known a blind person who had a sense of hearing as highly trained as a sonar jock).

For snakes, eyesight is not a primary sense, or not their only primary sense. And it's unlikely that animals have the capacity to train their senses, since even for disabled humans, it requires a certain amount of conscious effort to do so. And disable animals do not survive long in the wild.

Just for the record, I also tend to oppose inter-species hybridization; with the caveat that we don't really know enough in many cases to accurately determine whether a particular differences is an example of true speciation, or simply a regional variant. (However, I am something of a purist, regardless, so I tend to prefer keeping regional bloodlines, such as my Crawl Caye Boa, pure.) I don't have a problem with the various morphs, even those not normally occuring in nature (like Super-Tiger Retics).
 
alvaro said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, as you seem to be very well versed in these topics, isn't there a procedure known as "cryoanesthesia" where cold is used to anesthesize? Don't people that suffer from frost bite will only suffer pain only once their extremities are warmed up again?

I am no expert on cryoanesthesia especially as it may be used in human medicine. However I do know that:

1. Cryoanesthesia is absolutely contraindicated by modern veterinary standards in reptile patients. It is harmful and ineffective for surgical anesthesia and it is not humane for euthanasia. I have heard many well respected authorities in reptile medicine lecture quite specifically on this subject at veterinary conferences.

2. Cryoanesthesia in mammals would obviously have to stop well short of actual tissue freezing, as this would cause necrosis. So I am not sure how well the parameters of this procedure would apply to a situation where tissue was actually being frozen.

3. Frostbite victims experience much more pain when their extremities are thawed, but there certainly can be pain during the freezing itself.

To address another point about the brain being frozen faster than the rest of the snake, it doesn't actually work quite that way. Some really interesting biological processes begin when any animal is in imminent danger of death by freezing. Extremities begin to shut down as blood flow is shunted to the critical organs - the heart, the lungs, and especially the brain. If you were able to watch an infrared film of a snake suddenly exposed to a very cold atmosphere, you would see the colors flowing and changing as heat moves out of the extremities and into the most vital organs. So it's not a rapid process for the snake, sorry to say.

You can humanely anesthetize and then pith even a large snake with a jury rigged isoflurane chamber. Small snakes go inside the Rubbermaid with the isoflurane inside. Large snakes get a specially made chamber that encloses only the head. Once the iso takes effect you have from five to eight minutes of true surgical anesthesia even without a ventilator. That's enough to perform a humane pithing (brain destruction) on the unconscious animal.

Originally posted by DarinSince this is in complete opposition to what you have attributed to me, I expect you to stop saying that I would just rather kill this snake than to have it truly isolated by responsible keepers. It's not true.

However, responsible keepers are few and far between, and Mr. McDonald, given how he has approached this eyelessness as the next possible step in snake evolution, does not strike me as one who fits the bill. Therefore, given the small genepool of the species in question, in THIS instance, I think that animal ought to be euthanized.

Er....you just said that you want to kill this snake. Assuming you could get this snake away from its current owner, whom I agree should not be breeding this animal, you would euthanize it. Is that correct? If it is, then the statement is true - you would rather kill the snake than consider one of the two humane alternatives.

Spaying and neutering is a routine operation for dogs, particularly for animals with heritable conditions who should not be bred. These non breeder puppies can then be adopted out as pets if their quality of life will otherwise be good. It is harder to find a veterinarian with expertise in the spaying and neutering of snakes, but they do exist and there is absolutely no reason why ethical breeders cannot avail themselves of this humane solution for animals that should not be contributing to the gene pool.

The folks who are complaning most bitterly really ought to take up a fund to buy the snake and have it spayed. Most of that could probably be recouped from the sale of the non breedable animal as a pet only. Damage to the gene pool would be averted without having to kill what is by all accounts a magnificent animal despite its deformity.
 
Tanith,

You first implied that I would kill any snake that was deformed rather than taking other possible steps. That is not true. In THIS particular instance, I think that snake should be put down. That IS true.

However, as clearly as I made myself in that last post, you specifically quoted only a part that made you seem to be correct in your referring to my thoughts on the matter. Cutting and pasting is fun isn't it???

Thanks for letting me (and everyone else) see that you being right is more important to you than getting it right when having a conversation with someone else. It says a lot about you, Tanith.
 
Some really interesting biological processes begin when any animal is in imminent danger of death by freezing. Extremities begin to shut down as blood flow is shunted to the critical organs - the heart, the lungs, and especially the brain. If you were able to watch an infrared film of a snake suddenly exposed to a very cold atmosphere, you would see the colors flowing and changing as heat moves out of the extremities and into the most vital organs. So it's not a rapid process for the snake, sorry to say.

Yes, I have seen the process you refer too but always in warm-blooded animals (those with extremites). I'm not sure if the blood flow "shunt" operates similarly in snakes or other cold-blooded animals where their body temperature is highly dependent on the ambient temperature.
 
Originally posted by Darin Chappell Thanks for letting me (and everyone else) see that you being right is more important to you than getting it right when having a conversation with someone else. It says a lot about you, Tanith.

I asked "is this correct"? in order to attempt to understand and clarify your position. You responded by saying yes, you would kill this snake. Perhaps it is my understanding that is deficient, but I am reading your position as "kill the snake, no alternatives are acceptable". You seem to be taking that quite personally. If I am not interpreting your statements correctly, please feel free to clarify. If it is *not* true that you would rather kill the snake than consider humane alternatives, then just say so.

You are saying that you want to kill the snake, and at the same time you are mad at me for saying that you want to kill the snake. This seems a bit odd to me.

To address alvaro's question, yes, reptiles and amphibians definitely do have a biological mechanism to shunt blood flow to the vital organs and away from the extremities in response to a drop in temperature. Amphibians do it too. Herps are actually better adapted to use this mechanism than mammals because their tissues have a much higher tolerance for hypoxia. They can also cut off blood flow to an area that is injured to reduce blood loss, through a series of valves. It is a complex and fascinating mechanism, and a major part of their thermoregulation as well as compensation for injury.

I have seen a number of infrared photos and films at conferences and participated in one field study where I actually got to see and measure this happening firsthand. The brain becomes a major "hot spot" very quickly in response to a sudden temperature drop. So yes, this is definitely a fact and not a myth.
 
Have to agree w/ Tanith. Blood-flow to brain is ALWAYS the primary function of the cardiovascular system in all animals. In fact, all animals (humans included) ultimately die from a lack of blood-flow to the brain. Yes, that blood-flow may be stopped for a number of reasons, but the ultimate cause of death is lack of blood to the brain.

One other point, just because this snake has a sibling that is also eyeless, there is really no better/further evidence of the trait being genetic. It stands to reason that those two eggs were incubated in the same matter (siblings), so it also stands to reason that both eggs experienced the same environmental stressors which may have caused the trait. For example, both eggs could have been near the bottom of the pile, and as such, may not have recieved as much oxygen as the other eggs did. The lack of O2 could have caused the eyelessness. Or perhaps, they were at the very top of the egg pile, and as a result, were esposed to temps just little higher than the rest.

The ONLY way to find out if it is genetic is to do exactly what many of you are so against........ breed it. Breeding into the F2 generation would give a 25% chance of exposing the trait even if it's recessive and the snake was bred w/ a normal phenotype in the parental generation. If it were bred to it's sibling (which is very possible) we could find out a lot sooner. In that case, if the trait were genetic, all offspring would show the eyeless phenotype. Of course, from the sound of it, we're all wasting our time, because it's pretty damn unlikely it will breed anyway (according to Yasser).
 
Pic Of Eyeless scrub Python!

Here is one of a few pic's of the Scrub Python some of you Requested to see!
 

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Ok guys, I am new here but I am also very upset with some of these posters. Number 1 I am the person that the snake bit at the show on Saturday. It was not Glen's fault. It was mine. I got to close to a snake I knew nothing about and I has been holding a Sugar Glider earlier. You put it together. Warm body with a food smell. It could have been any snake. Also, I was the poster who said that he had my medical records to cotact me. I do not appreciate anyone saything that they have my medical records. I HAVE NO TORN MUSCLES!!!!!!! I got no stitches. I have a very badly bruised arm with a one inch tear in my wrist. Glen has been there for me when I needed to talk about it. I have decided that once my arm heals I am going to take a picture of me holding this snake. I was back at the reptile show that Sunday after the bite and I did another show this last weekend. Does that sould like someone with torn muscles. If you want to know anything about what happened I suggest that you contact me, Glen or Jason. I know that Glen told me Jason was there. Try to get your facts straight before posting. Thanks.:D
 
Hey Seamus Haley, show me where the heck I posted that hte snake bite me and torn my muscles. No you can't can you because I sure do know what my name is and it is LYNNE. Yes LYNNE. I will tell you exactly what happened because I WAS THERE.
Glen was showing the snake to people who wanted to take pictures. I had held a sugar glider a lot earlier in the day and had washed my hands several times. I did not handled any other types of critters including rats, mice, or guinne pigs. I did not realize that the sugar glider oils might be on me. The snake did not seem nervous or anything unsual when I reached out. I have pictures of the bites to prove all of this. Also, there is o way anyone has gotten my medical records. If you did, then you are in for one heck of a law suit.
Also, this subject is really no one's business except for mine and Glens. We have already discussed it and we have made our peace with each other. He is my friend and I am his. I have also met his wife and she is a wonderful lady. They are both very concerned with my health and check on me ofter. Now does that sould like an irresponsible owner. You all are more than welcome to e-mail me anytime about this. I will not be posting my pictures of my bite because I know what some people will do with it.
Also, the bite happeded at about 5:00pm on Saturday and I left for the hospital right away and then I was back at the show on Sunday working my table. It did not stop me at all.
 
I was at a reptile show today and was looking at a Scrubb Python when it grabbed my wrist and bite the crap out of me. I just yelled ow ow and the owned held it away from me to keep it from rolling and another man grabbed it around the neck and made it let me go. Then some stupid woman wanted me to just stand there while they looked for a first aid kit. I told them that I was going to go wash it in the bathroom. Boy when that water hit it hurt like the devil. I knew by looking at it that I had to go to the emergency room. There were 5 women in there trying to help me and the next thing I knew the men came to look at it. One of them works at the hospital with snake bites. He told me to put pressure on it and someone would drive me to the hospital. It put about a 1 inch gash on my wrist by the heel of my hand and it got me on the muscle running down my thumb. Let me tell you that really did hurt. I will be back at the reptile show tomorrow because the owner was so upset. He was almost in tears and I tried to tell him that it was not his fault. I know the risk when I go near a snake. I have never been bitten before and I hope to never be again.

I did the bolding.

Regardless, the bite incident was of minimal importance... I mentioned it specifically because the animal which Glenn was claiming was docile was involved. It's the same animal he was claiming had no problems as a result of it's condition, was in perfect health and ate well... He didn't have the animal long enough to really determine what the temperment was like, he didn't have the animal long enough to determine any of the other statements he made either.

Although since you want to discuss it in a different context... Glenn mentioned several times how the bite was nothing more than a scrape, a surface abrasion- you call it a gash and mentioned immediately knowing it required an ER visit. One of you was clearly lying since the two concepts are mutually exclusive which means any explaination or description at this point can't be trusted.

The thread was started specifically about Glenn's ethics in using a deformity as a selling point and then further about his comments that he wanted to try proving out and spreading the trait when questioned about it. He has lied, he has suggested some pretty dangerous and terrible things, he has refused to obey one of the very few, very simple rules for posting on this board and he's a BAD GUY with craptacular ethics and no concept of anything beyond his immediate and personal gain.

I kinda "know" Rachel and trust her judgement... she assures me that he's not actually as he has made himself appear to be and that his posts on this board do not indicate what he is like in person... Could be true, might not be though. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
 
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