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IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

draybar said:
This is still America.
Innocent until proved guilty.
I went back and read more.
The original animal was purchased in August.
If Allen's facility and animals had IBD there would be hundreds of reports of sick animals by now.
There simply has not been ANY other animals from Allen shown to have IBD.
There has been absolutely no proof that the original animal contracted IBD at Allen's facility.
Why should Allen come here and try to prove anything to the "angry mob".
The fact that NO other animals, from Allen, have been shown to have IBD in the last 3 1/2 to 4 months seems to be proof in and of itself.
A non feeder or problem feeder is irrelevant to the issue.
Anyone who has kept, bred or worked with any number of snakes knows there are problem feeders and problems can arise at any time for no apparent reason.
And before anyone comes on here calling me names and accusing me of being "Allen's Tool" let me tell you I have never met him or bought anything from him. Or anyone else posting here.
I just can't quite understand why vendors should ban him and why he should deffend an unsubstantiated accusation or why any vendor not willing to ban him should be condemned.
Click to expand...

Well I had conversations with many people the other day that had FULL tables of higher end snakes as well as conversations with a few people who were just regulars at the PA shows, I was amazed that not one person of the ~20-30 ever heard of "fauna classifieds". With those statistics i would say it is pretty damn probable there could be many problems with the lower end sales of allen belcher or maybe even the higher end sales and nobody would hear about it on this forum.

Also any boa that may have been sold in SEPTEMBER (when the original animal was bought by the way) may not show signs untill the earliest of MARCH. And even then whose to say that any other animal in a collection is not infected untill say...march, signs would probably not be detected untill SEPTEMBER...So you see it is just a waiting game. And I would just like to add that i do not enjoy being called a liar as far as "who" i bought the snake from...I BOUGHT THE SNAKE FROM ALLEN BELCHER OF BIG DADDYS WHOLESALE. If i didnt this thread would have a different name posted with it, well, this thread may not even exisist if i would have dealt with someone who gave a rats ass about their animals in the first place.

Listen im not gonna go thru all my evidence for every "joe" who wants to read a couple of posts then come here asking all the questions that were already answered. Frankly i cant believe that people still question that i got the animal from allen, why and for what gain would i just pick someone out of the blue.

Also i had the snake for 3 weeks MAX, the signs were apparent in two, the snake was 19 days old (allens words) when i got it. Allen admitted himself that his vet said the snake had to have gotten the disease from a parent for it to die within the allotted time. Oh and for the record for the second time...the snake died from an absecess which was secondary to the IBD. So to contract IBD, manifest an absecess and die within 3 weeks, and i didnt have any other boids. Hmmm i dont know if it is even possible i had it to give.
 
Oh and draybar you seem to not really know the REAL way america is regardless of what they say...We are guilty untill proven innocent, I can tell you that first hand.
 
ballfreak said:
Removed - Violation of Full Name Rule
Click to expand...
Well...John, first, you need a last name to post in the BOI or your post may be deleted.

Second, John, is it your contention that the animal for which there is a necropsy proven diagnosis of IBD did not have IBD because you are "good at judging someone"? So your gut is better than the scientific proof from a trained veterinarian? Is that what you mean by "bottom line i really dont believe all of these accusations"? Wow.
 
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Well you can lead a person to knowledge, but you cant make them think.....
 
shrap said:
Well you can lead a person to knowledge, but you cant make them think.....
Click to expand...
So true my friend.
ballfreak said:
Removed - Violation of Full Name Rule
Click to expand...
Let's see now, shall we? Rick says he bought the boa from Allen, he has Allen's business card, he has now ID'd him as the man who sold him the snake. How much more would you like?

The bottom line is maybe you were switched at birth and aren't the son of your parents also. Both are equally likely.

So again, based on your gut instincts, you think Rick is lying? Considering Rick has no apparent agenda and nothing to gain from all this, what is his motivation?
 
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Well...............................

I bought a baby Bp from Allen last year. This was before Bryon's enlightening
thread. Shortly after my purchase, I heard of the horror of the conditions, but had not seen it until somebody had the courage to post it.
At that time I was horrified, and disgusted that my little Bp had come from such conditions.

After this thread came up I was in a panic. I called a good friend that has had experience with this awful disease. I am relieved to know had my little Bp had this IBD he would have been dead long ago.

I also met and spoke with Allen. Yes he is an engaging person. Yes he comes across as a good person. But IMHO he is nothing but a boil on the butt of the herp world.

What changed my mind..............................
The fact that he would feel there is nothing wrong for keeping helpless animals in horrific conditions. The fact that it is proven he has had a case of IBD in his animals, yet continues to send them out to kill other herpers collections. The fact that the almighty dollar is more important to him than everything else.
 
wow

By Ron
And I would just like to add that i do not enjoy being called a liar as far as "who" i bought the snake from...I BOUGHT THE SNAKE FROM ALLEN BELCHER OF BIG DADDYS
Click to expand...

I never called you a liar.
I said you did not prove the snake contracted IBD at Allen’s facility.
There is no real reason to believe you got it from someone else. I’m not disputing that. But even that hasn’t been proven.
Yes, it probably got it from one of the parents. The age of the snake would seem to confirm this.
Do you know for a fact that this snake was bred at his facility?
Just asking so don’t get all defensive again.
You know he does do a lot of trading.
You yourself said the other two snakes were fine.

By Ron
Oh and draybar you seem to not really know the REAL way America is regardless of what they say...We are guilty until proven innocent, I can tell you that first hand.
Click to expand...

No need to get an attitude here.
It would seem you know even less about the “REAL” America then I.
In the “REAL” America such defensiveness could easily be interpreted as guilt.

By Ron
Listen im not gonna go thru all my evidence for every "joe" who wants to read a couple of posts then come here asking all the questions that were already answered.
Click to expand...

Why did you come to the BOI with the thread?
Was it just to make yourself look special or was it to get a warning out to us
“every joe’s”? Isn’t this where we “every joe’s” go to find information about people we may plan on dealing with?
It would seem to me that you are too busy calling names and attacking people simply because they ask questions.
I still have not seen any proof what-so-ever that his animals, at his facility and that he is selling now have IDB.
NONE.

By Ron
Also any boa that may have been sold in SEPTEMBER (when the original animal was bought by the way)
Click to expand...

You apparently made this little point because I said you got the snake in August.
HMMM do you not remember your own e-mail?

By Ron
To whom it may concern,
Back in august of 06 i purchased a BCI from you, from the start regurge, weakness and a few mites. The snake did not last 3 weeks. Being my only boid, i took the animal to the vet to have a necropsy done, preliminary diagnosis was an abscess, i had the Heart, liver, stomach sent to the pathology lab for a better idea of what caused the quick and unusual death. I got the results back today and found Positive for Esoinophilic cytoplasmic inclusion bodies (IBD). I am not at all too upset, i only lost one $50 animal but i am concerned for you, who may have many snakes with the disease. So just a friendly warning, maybe a good time to have some tests done.
Sorry for bad news, Ron Kerstetter
Click to expand...



Now Bill

By Bill
What do you want for proof? Did you read the part with the yellow business card?
Click to expand...
Do you mean this card?
By Ron
My reasoning for
not contacting sooner is that i had no way of contacting you untill i saw
this ad on kingsnake, i did have one of your yellow cards but my girlfriend
threw it out while cleaning.
Click to expand...

Sorry even though I never said the snake did not come from Allen the “yellow card”
That was thrown away????????? How does that supposed card prove anything?

By Me
A non feeder or problem feeder is irrelevant to the issue.
Anyone who has kept, bred or worked with any number of snakes knows there are problem feeders and problems can arise at any time for no apparent reason.
Click to expand...

by Bill
Correct, but there was a test performed on the boa that came back as IBD.
Click to expand...

If you mean the non-feeder and not Ron’s snake then I saw no proof of that.
I looked, I did not see a vet report on that one.
That would be classified as hear-say. Not proof.



Now back to Ron and this really disturbs me the most.
Ron, you are jumping up and down and saying Allen should not sell any animals, no shows should allow him to sell at their venues, you know his animals have IBD etc..etc..


So what do you do?
You have your brother GIVE a possibly infected snake away?
So it can possibly infect someone else’s collection?
Now that is brilliant.
It also proves to me that you don’t even believe they are infected.
If you did, with your high standards, you obviously wouldn’t just give a potentially sick animal to someone would you?
That would be ….well……WRONG..now wouldn’t it.

Your own words..
I had to MAKE my brother give his away for the saftey of my collection and he is 200 miles away from me.
Click to expand...

You didn’t care about anyone else’s animals just your own.

You are as quilty, or even moreso, then you are claiming Allen to be.
 
First off John, please put your full name in every post or they will run the risk of being deleted.
ballfreak said:
Removed - Violation of Full Name Rule
Click to expand...
I spoke with Allen myself when another similar thread was started. I found him to be a very warm, friendly and very personable guy. Nice does not mean disease free animals, nice does not excuse bad husbandry issues, and nice does not mean that the customer and his vet were lying.
But hey, before you think that I'm just another liar maybe you should check out these threads.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65274&highlight=Allen+Belcher
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75369&highlight=Allen+Belcher
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89890&highlight=Allen+Belcher
 
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ballfreak said:
Removed - Violation of Full Name Rule
Click to expand...
Ok so your telling me the other two people that were with me might be confused too? So the three of us who all recieved a business card from him at the time of sale are confused on who we bought the snake from. Get real. three eyewitnesses completely overrules allens " I think he has me confused with someone else" theroy. I do not disagree that allen SEEMS like a nice guy, but from what the veterans of this thread have learned is allen is VERY deceptive.
 
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All in favor of "Jimmy johnson" starting from square one and reading both threads all the way thru, and even looking at the posted pictures of the "tan business card". And yes Jim i did say august because i wasnt sure if the show was the last two days of august or the first two of september....You really need to read everything that has been posted in the past few months before you come here with your 10% knowledge of the situation and jump on me about anything. Your worse than anybody reading only a few posts then skipping a page or two and thinking you know anything. ALSO i didnt make my brother give the other snake away i made him get rid of it, thats what he chose to do with it, besides the kid who has it now doesnt have any other animals, so it can still serve as a pet , for now. Oh by the way, the new owner of the snake knows about the situation. AND YES I AM A VERY HOTHEADED PERSON i never denied that, sorry i cant help it, i was beaten with my silver spoon.
 
Ballfreak,
IMHO= In My Humble Opinion
And as I know and trust the source of the pictures. I would say that the proof in in those photos. There is really no way to refute those pictures.
 
It seems like these two just want to not believe what is here...

What is it that will make you believe???

Other than Allen coming here and saying "Yes, I did it", which we all know will not happen, what more proof do you need?
 
J and J (that's short for John and Jimmy) first off John now others have mentioned this to you but I'll do it again Every post you make on the BOI must have your full name IE First Name and Last Name or when a MOD sees your post they will delete them. Do you understand now? Don't nod your head type your whole name... Not that seeing a blank where your post now are would be all that different.

Jimmy this is just a suggestion but a good one, that being go read all this thread and then read the other threads about Allen and his business. Then you wouldn't look so foolish (well hopefully) when you post here.. I'll give ya one little tid bit your wrote this- Quote
""Why did you come to the BOI with the thread?
Was it just to make yourself look special or was it to get a warning out to us
“every joe’s”? Isn’t this where we “every joe’s” go to find information about people we may plan on dealing with?
It would seem to me that you are too busy calling names and attacking people simply because they ask questions.
I still have not seen any proof what-so-ever that his animals, at his facility and that he is selling now have IDB.
NONE.""
Now just on this one point why Ron started this thread-- well cuz we asked him to IE the infomation was going to be buried in another thread and many of us felt that it should be brought to as many peoples attention as possible. Now get along now you have reading to do.

Randy
 
I am kind of supprised that Allen is still being allowed to post on KS. When I spoke with them, they led me to beleive that he would be removed until he could prove his claim. They never out and said it that way but I sure felt they were going to.

Anyway, so far all the others seem to be doing ok and are still eating good for me so maybe I just beat it, maybe not, only time will tell.

J_
 
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