IBD Allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

The point is that I’m not asking for proof of eradication in a breeder of which I’m unaware of his IBD status. But, when there is one where the disease has been diagnosed then yes, he should be asked to demonstrate that he has achieved complete eradication. Do you see where I’m coming from? One is an unknown, the other one has been confirmed in the past. Bear with me that I’m not asking for anyone to quit with their business. What I expect is for them to put things on hold until they can demonstrate they are free from the disease.

In MHO whether a state agency steps up or not is irrelevant as far as the seller is concerned, simply because he will cull himself from the pool when his animals die of IBD. The problem is that by not policing ourselves (in absence of other regulatory agencies) he will infect several collections before his own is wiped out. In all honesty I’m not holding my breath for the seller. Nature will take its course and take care of his animals due to his negligence. What worries me though is that in the meantime he is allowed to sell at a show side by side with other individuals that never had a problem. Are they all free from IBD? We don’t know. What we do know is that he is not. This is reason enough for anyone with enough power to stop the dissemination to do so.

You asked the question on who would I rather buy from: a vendor A that had been identified as having had IBD months earlier, and had reasonable documentation that they had followed a strict cleansing and quarantine protocol afterwards, or a vendor B, across the room, that had the same animals at the same price, and never had their name mentioned with IBD. Knowing now the care with which show promoters protect their “clientele” neither one offer enough guarantee. My answer would be: probably from neither one. Now, having said this, one of the big breeders was mentioned in this thread as having battled IBD in the past. I have bought from this person and will continue to buy from him with ABSOLUTE confidence. And there’s where the high expectation from a high-end hobbyist you mentioned comes into play.

Regards.

 

[Wilomn]

It's the responsibility of all who breed to protect their ability to sell. This is done in part by policing ourselves and when a problem such as this is encountered, there is ONE right thing to do; stop selling, quarentine, test, retest, wait at LEAST 6 months, test again, and then proceed. It's a multistep process but it is the ONLY right thing to do.

One yahoo can ruin shows for EVERYONE who knows he sold at them. Already in this thread we have people saying they will not DO shows and will not BUY at shows because ONE promoter cares more about selling tables than protecting his business' viability. One bad apple ruins the barrel.

The almighty dollar is not the end result for everyone. It's a nice, sometimes very nice, byproduct of what we do, but isn't the only reason some of us are in this hobby/business. Except for allen and his tool terry, they seem to care for nothing but making a buck, no matter how many innocent people suffer.

The worst part is the incubation period with IBD. If you do more than one show a year, it could come from sooooooooooooooo many different breeders, and the ones like allen would NEVER say word one about it, leaving someone else to lose his business or love of a cherished hobby because of greed and stupidity.

We ALL know what the right thing to do here is.

We ALL know what the easy thing to do here is.

allen is taking the easy way, which is basically wrong.

 

[airtrixx]

Well i just got back from the hamburg PA show. This Story begins Two weeks ago...I email David Hess of the NORTHWESTERN Reptile expo to warn/ask him if Allen belcher will be at the show, He replies with "I have never heard of allen belcher/Big daddys wholesale, nor will he be at my show" (i feel like such a dumb ass but i erased my email and his) In my email i told him about my vet report and about allen, then gave him a link to both of the threads here on fauna. So feeling pretty safe i went to the show today...and guess who was the first table in the door...Oh yes you guessed it. I found Mr. Hess ( the promoter ) and explained that i was the guy who emailed him about allen and that he had lied to be about allen being there, he responded with what started to sound like " last minute he showed up" but quickly turned into a mumble and turned away from me to stick a chicken finger in his mouth. Then he says I checked his table and it seemed ok to me, i said " Well buddy you cant see IBD" then i was completely ignored but i think i got the attention of a couple of his buddys who were sitting right there. I wish i would have had the balls to actually go near his table and check out his animals but im not that stupid. I think this might touch a couple people especially since i picked up this paper at the show...I wonder how many people got cut out of the show before he was let in " last minute"

 

[airtrixx]

And so there is no " Was he really there "...

 

[airtrixx]

.

One yahoo can ruin shows for EVERYONE who knows he sold at them. Already in this thread we have people saying they will not DO shows and will not BUY at shows because ONE promoter cares more about selling tables than protecting his business' viability. One bad apple ruins the barrel.
QUOTE]


Make that 2 promoters Wil

 

[Chameleon Company]

The point is that I’m not asking for proof of eradication in a breeder of which I’m unaware of his IBD status. But, when there is one where the disease has been diagnosed then yes, he should be asked to demonstrate that he has achieved complete eradication. Do you see where I’m coming from? One is an unknown, the other one has been confirmed in the past. Bear with me that I’m not asking for anyone to quit with their business. What I expect is for them to put things on hold until they can demonstrate they are free from the disease.

All well and good to wish for. As to "seeing where you are coming from", I think I would have to point out that the discussion began with what standards could be expected of a promoter. That being, what ethical and legal threshold could a promoter mandate before allowing (or conversely banning) a vendor. This included both the standard to verify the disease, and then the protocol to follow to eradicate it, and where in the process the promoter should ban the vendor, and then allow their return, if ever. Everything you state might be fine as what would be necessary for a vendor to win back your business. You acknowledge that the state can't be looked to for a solution. Maybe you believe that the protocols you outline can be adopted by a promoter to impose on a vendor. I don't see a snowball's chance in hell right now. The promoter must consider the legalities. While I think that, in the court-of-public-opinion, the likelihood that Allen had IBD in at least one of his animals is probable, it was not proven to a legal standard. Not even close IMO. Without the involvement of any state regulatory agency, current restraint-of-trade statutes and plenty of other considerations limit the promoter in what they can do. You, on the other hand, have the utmost flexibility to vote with your $. Maybe in the years to come we will see something evolve regarding promoter-vendor IBD protocols. Do you see where I'm coming from ? Thanks.

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

Now you can slam the Hamburg show,and the list will go on and on. Dont forget Daytona and Keep sneaking around taking pics of Allen at shows.I wish you had the guts to go talk to Allen at Hamburg!Well go hide behind your keyboard.

 

[airtrixx]

Now you can slam the Hamburg show,and the list will go on and on. Dont forget Daytona and Keep sneaking around taking pics of Allen at shows.I wish you had the guts to go talk to Allen at Hamburg!Well go hide behind your keyboard.

First i wasnt sneaking around taking pics of anyone, they both looked right at me and didnt say a word, but if you think im going anywhere near his table...you must be out of your mind. And no, i have no reason to hide behind my keyboard, i only would like to hide from tainted snakes and merchandise. And if you want to talk about "guts" I wish allen would have the guts to actually be a man and do some real action. Maybe you should come to the next PA show and i will show you what my guts are all about...

 

[BryonsBoas]

Bryon,if I sold you a snake and you were not happy with it and I asked you to send it back and you refused what would you expect me to do ?

If it was healthy enough to attempt shipping then yes , I would return it. But it would be over refusal to eat in a certain time period , not represented well , etc. What we're talking about here was a very sick animal that never should've been shipped to begin with. If you sent me an animal that became ill due to shipping delays , rough handling causing stress etc. , then I would expect the first thing to be said by you is " Take it to a vet , get it treated , get it healthy and then we'll decide on shipping or a partial refund , covering vet expenses and so forth. If you still demamnded the SICK animal to be returned without treatment then you would be taken off of my " purchase again list " faster than Oprah can eat a twinkie.

It is obvious that you have it in for Allen and no matter what he does you will find fault, just as you are doing with me.

I don't have it in for Allen, I have it in for his INACTION in the whole thing. I don't have it in for you either, I have it in for your INACTION in the whole thing. More than enough evidence has been brought forth between this thread and the original thread for any vendor to reconsider letting Allen in their door to sell potentially infected animals.Yet , you need even MORE proof. Judging by your posts there would never be enough proof unless the animals you bought from Allen killed the rest of your collection.
It's your show , run however you like but the " POTENTIAL " customers that could come through the doors are speaking up and telling you they don't want vendors ,with evidence that they have potential deadly critters ,at a show that they pay to get into to buy animals for their collection. 1 + 1 = 2 , very simple. At the current time your backing a sinking ship and it will cause your reptutaion to be lashed to the anchor as it goes down. The guy your defending is doing an animal dump , still going to shows etc . and seemingly doing nothing about a very serious situation .
Do you really want to be associated with IBD coming from YOUR show? Up to you bud. Do your damage control until everything is too damaged to control. Do you not think that this is getting around by word of mouth? IBD is talked about by the community quite a bit. I.E. Guy A tells his buddy GUY B about the IBD , who has it and what shows/forums are letting him sell . Guy B then tells Guy C who then tells Guy D ...... you get the idea right?

As far as finding fault , yes , I do. With Allen and with you. I haven't called either of you scumbags or slimeballs or anything but what I have done is call you both on your inactions. Dunno why your here defending Allen when he won't even show himself. Generally folks with nothing to hide don't mind answering the tough questions. He did say he was getting testing done , wheres the results? How can he really get testing done if the animals are being sold? He couldn't remember the one guy with the dead boa but everyone else he sold too . Do you really think he'd remember anyone he sold infected animals to while having testing done and then have the nanas to call them to tell them? Doubt it. Hes done nothing but deny , deny and sling crap to buy time, its all hes done since the original I posted. When that stopped working, he posted ads under another name and refuses to come to task about what hes doing.

Jim
I fully understand where your coming from. As far as I know your not a boid keeper so you can pretty much look at this from an unbiased point of view. However us boid guys put a ton of money and effort into our collections because we love it , love the animals and love sending healthy critters to new homes for others to enjoy. Its natural for us to be very defensive about something this serious that could wipe that all out in very short period of time. I'm sure you'd shed a tear or few bunches if your chams were taken out in such a manner and all you could do was watch them die. We will shed tears over our critters. either inside or outside, and feel the need to monkeystomp the a-hole that looked the other way and let the money cloud his concious so the disease could spread. I would take the comments as they are , made with a deep passion and love for animals that could be taken away and in doing so causing just as much grief as a lost love.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bryon,
I don't have any trouble understanding your position on this, or at least the passion that motivates some of our differing opinions. I had boids many times in the past, to include before you were born. My opinions, especially regarding the legalities, are based on my knowledge of the law, and not passion, yay or nay. I agree with Terry's take about what you can expect from other shows given what is known, and the current lack of much in the way of any oversite protocols, whether self-policing by the industry, or an actual state agency with enforcement powers. My opinions on the ill snake were regarding the legal aspects of TOS violations, which could be used to have someone banned from some marketing venues in some circumstances.

Passion is great for some things, and unavoidable in others. It can interfere with objectivity at times, and is usually best minimized in pondering most business decisions. For better or for worse, passion has a way of waning as you age, hopefully yielding to a suitable upside. Winston Churchill may have put it best: "If you are not a liberal when you are 20, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative when you are 40, you have no brain", liberal opinions usually identified as being more passionate. Its not an indictment of one or the other. Without the name-calling, etc, its a pretty good discussion. I also like Jefferson's quote below.

 

[Jon Mitchell]

Just asking, but what was the other name Allen was using to sell his animals? I looked on KS but I didn't see anyone from Smith Mills AL nor did I see Allen's ads. Just want to make sure I avoid them as well.

J_

 

[BryonsBoas]

Point taken , after reading some of the posts I was going with a step or 2 away from a pissing contest was just taking a shot at hopefully calming the waters a tad. Difference of opinion is cool , just sucks when it escalates to more than that.
I'm far from fluent in law or legalities so i won't try to throw any in here. I just look at things from a redneck point of view, straight , simple , too the point and what I consider the right thing.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Redneck viewpoints have their advantages We may disagree on some opinions, but it doesn't make either wrong. Lawyers may be the first to tell you that they make terrible businessmen. Usually not prone to the entrepeneurial hallmarks of aggressive decision-making and risk-taking. Good luck in all.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bryon et al,
You and others can certainly continue to pursue voting with your dollars, letter writing, boycotts, etc. Doesn't matter what I think there anyway .... I just won't be joining you. One possible option for promoters came to mind, that takes into account the legal difficulties of banning someone because "they might have IBD", vs. respecting the concerns of others who may be affected by it. It might pass the legal muster too. A show organizer may be able to establish a policy that allows a vote by fellow vendors. They are very much affected by the risks of exposure, as well as the knowledge that they too may some day face a kangaroo court or weak allegation. Doesn't make them the fairest jury in the world, but they have an interest on both sides of the fence. Maybe a motion for a vote would have to be submitted by 10% of the vendors, and then a vote of 60% or more to ban. I only put this out there as a possibility, and it has a couple of legal problems. The accused could be given 30 days to respond, lobby for votes, take steps to rectify the problem to the satisfaction of other vendors, etc. If the process is objectively defined, its one possibility.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

So many experts ,I wish I had come here before I ever started a show so all of you could tell me how to run one.Bryon,if I sold you a snake and you were not happy with it and I asked you to send it back and you refused what would you expect me to do ?And if it ,s about the snake and not the money why is Jon trying to find a way to sue Allen to get his money back.It is obvious that you have it in for Allen and no matter what he does you will find fault, just as you are doing with me.Terry

Terry

One point that every one seems to be glossing over is that Allen did not say "send it back and i will refund you" He said "send it back and I will get it started eating for you" I would be hesitatnt to do that too if I were sent a substandard animal even without the IBD issue rearing it's ugly head. Bottom line is that the animal was sold as healthy and feeding. A full refund was in order.

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

First off Allen wont come on here because of the people who post here .Second condem me if you like ,call me names or whatever,it doesnt bother me.I have owned the Dixie Reptile Show for 11 years.There is no good way to handle this.I have been to Allens house and facility and he comes to my show.I have not had a problem with him or his animals so far.If I barred every vendor on suspicion the show would shut down.I am concerned about this but my actions will not be based on the B.O.I. I suggest any of you to call Allen and Talk with him instead of trying to destroy him here. Terry

 

[Wilomn]

SUSPISCION???

Perhaps your definition of that word is different from what EVERYONE else uses for it.

There is PROOF of IBD in his snakes.

Your inability to make the proper decision is pathetic.

Try going here, look up the big words in this post.

www.dictionary.com

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

And by the way Ron I do come to Hamburg on business from time to time.So I will let you know next time I come up.Terry

 

[Dixie Reptiles]

Wes prove to me there is I.B.D.in his snakes right now.

 

[Wilomn]

If you're too stupid to read and comprehend this thread, I'm not going to beat it into you.

Did you look up pathetic yet?