Jeane Best / Wendy Childs...Beware

[Hues1]

I was directed to the following ads by a customer of mine, the ads state that this animal for sale was produced from adult animals acquired from myself and another breeder.

I have NEVER sold these people any Mack Snows, I e-mailed these folks and was told by them that they acquired their adult breeders from a guy in Idaho by the name of Mike West. I have never sold any Macks to a Mike West in Idaho either.

I have repeatedly asked them to remove my name from their listings as I do not wish to be associated with a animal that may not possibly be a true Mack Snow. They have not removed my name from their ads. So I am left with no other alternative but to post this here.

 

[Gecko_Den]

Considering how she uses lineage and family tree, etc as such a big selling point in her ads you would think that she would want to be 100% sure. My favorite quote from the ad has to be "Don't fall for these cons selling fake macks and fake super macks."

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, this is interesting.

I have NEVER sold these people any Mack Snows, I e-mailed these folks and was told by them that they acquired their adult breeders from a guy in Idaho by the name of Mike West. I have never sold any Macks to a Mike West in Idaho either.

The ad clearly mentions Lizard Lair as part of the connection. Can you show that Lizard Lair has no right to make the claim that they had any Mack Snow? Did you ever send any to Shelly or others there?

I have repeatedly asked them to remove my name from their listings as I do not wish to be associated with a animal that may not possibly be a true Mack Snow.Alex,

"May not possibly?" I do not know what you mean. Are you saying "in no way possible"? Or are you saying "its possible they are not", which could also be read as "its possible they are"?

Alex, I understand your concerns. I see my name and lineages in ads often enough, with links to animals that have graced the covers of magazines, etc. Sometimes its bogus, sometimes its possible but likely bogus, and sometimes its rock solid. I am curious how this one plays out.

 

[[email protected]]

Has anyone done any background checks on Mike West? He's a real charmer here in the Northwest, I would not doubt that Mike lied about buying them from you.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, what gives? Did you not sell the bloodline to Lizard Lair?

 

[Chameleon Company]

For the benefit of the reader, Jeane and Wendy are out of state today celebrating a 60th wedding anniversary for Jeane's Mother. They may not be able to respond to this thread until tomorrow. In the meantime, I do still ask Alex for some legitimate clarifications, as mentioned in my earlier post. Perhaps Alex is busy today as well.

 

[Hues1]

Jim, just what needs to be clarified? Their ad plainly states the animal for sale was produced from breeders "acquired" from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue. I've already said I've NEVER sold them any Macks and I've never sold this Mike West guy any Macks either. Its pretty clear in my opinion, I dont know either one of those parties, I've never sold either one of those parties any Macks....and because of the fact I've never sold either one of those people any Macks, they shouldnt be claiming that some of their adult breeders were "acquired" or originated from me.

They have already admitted that they purchased these adult breeders from this Mike West guy, if anything...they should list him as the person whom they acquired some of these animals from....not me.

If you want to argue the "lineage" thing, well lets do that too......the proper and morally correct way to word or phrase their ad would've been..."our adult breeders were purchased/acquired from Mike West and originally produced by Alex Hue and Lizard Lair" or something to that affect. But guess what? I 've already said that this Mike West guy has NEVER purchased any Macks from me.

As far as I'm concerned, my name should've never been placed in those ads, the ads are some what misleading. Anyone reading those ads would assume that some of those adult breeders came from me directly which is not the case.

I've already told these people that I never sold this Mike West guy any Macks and that I wouldnt be able to say that those animals originated from me in any way form or shape. Now if this Mike West guy lied to these folks and stated that he acquired some of those adult breeders from me.....the morally correct thing to do would've been to remove my name from those ads anyway because they now have verification that this Mike West never received animals from me. Just to clarify my stance on this, they say this Mike West guy sold them animals which he claims he got from me, I've already told them that Mike West did not get them from me....the red flags have now been waved, I've asked that my name be removed from their ads...instead they relisted those ads with my name in them yet again after being given the info that Mike West did not receive his animals from me....how should thier actions be interpreted?

As far as Shelly from Lizard Lair is concerned...that has nothing to do with my name...now does it? If Shelly wants to get involved with this thread...thats her perogative, what I can say is that these people have also admitted they did not purchase some of their adult breeders directly from Lizard Lair either.

The purpose of this thread is to let people know that those animals did not originate from me as it appears in their ads, even more so now since I've already told them that Mike West did not purchase any Macks from me either.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, you were here and you chose not to clarify !!

In the meantime, I'll post a portion of an ad by Jeane and Wendy that can be found in the Kingsnake Classifieds, Leopard Geckos. It was posted early this morning. Its is the second version of the ad, as Jeane and Wendy made changes in the first one at the request of Alex. Alex also posted two ads just above this one, and I will go so far as to say that he was aware of these exact words from the ad:

Produced by me from breeders by Lizard Lair and Alex Hue. To clarify this statement. I have signed paperwork that serves as proof that backs up my claim of a trade for the breeders that produced this animal. One of which is said to be Lizard Lair and one of which is said to be Alex Hue. I also have direct knowledge and email documentation of the purchase of those animals directly and indirectly with above said breeders. I have no reason to believe these documentations are falsified in any way. The quality and appearance of the listed animal speaks for itself. I will not be backed into a corner and forced to remove information from my ads. Alot of dragons were traded ay a great cost to obtaining these breeders and I have a right to sell their offsping for whatever price I choose for what they in fact are.

This ad was posted 4 hours before Alex started this thread. He posted his own ads over it approximately two hours after Jeane and Wendy's ad, and still two hours before the thread starter here. It clearly connects the dots, and also claims that they have the documentation to prove it. It also alludes to some other issue, which for the benefit of the reader was an ongoing email exchange between Alex and Wendy, where Alex had been provided with the information. But in reading your initial thread starter Alex, you seem ignorant of what is stated here in the ad, omit what would be seen to be very significant information IMO, and lead the casual reader to believe that Wendy and Jeane have no claim. I am confused. What's up ?

 

[Hues1]

Jim...lets connet the dots...

here are ads that are still running in its entirety

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/pp_classifieds/showproduct.php?product=17928&sort=1&cat=28&page=2

this one is particularly interesting

http://www.reptileauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=3551

that one was listed Mar. 16, 2006 15:43:31 EST

Any change of wording in those? better yet....how can you possibly argue the fact that I've already stated they did not purchase any from me directly? or that Mike West purchased any from me directly?

 

[Hues1]

Produced by me from breeders aquired from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue

what would a person assume with that statement???

 

[Hues1]

Jim...if you want to be the knight in shining armor sort of speak....then you need to go play in Mike West's sand box and not mine

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, if I were going to start a bad guy post on someone,

I might be so informed as to provide the facts as I knew them. Your first post was a little bit weak there. You conveniently omitted the connection to Lizard Lair that was clearly stated in an ad that you had full knowledge of. You made it quite clear that you did not sell anything to this West kid, while the ad that best explained the link, not to mention what you may have had in email communications, showed that Lizard Lair was the claimed provider to West. Unfortunately, unless Shelley decides to provide some detail, we have to wait until tomorrow to see who made what claim falsely, if in fact that is the case. But Jeane and Wendy did name the exact source in their ad just as soon as you challenged them to. Lizard Lair is a specifically identifiable entity, not some fabricated entity that cannot be tracked down. I will be waiting with others to see if someone is lying here. You intitial post indicates that Jeane and Wendy are in the wrong. The information you omitted clearly demonstrates their claim to Lizard Lair being the link. I guess since their ads were competing with yours, they should still be the target, eh? You are welcome in my sandbox anytime Alex.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex,
To clarify my own position, I do not pretend to know the facts here. I do think that the crosshairs were hastily aimed though. I have left both a voice mail, and an email, with Shelley (Lizard Lair), explaining things as they now sit, telling her of the thread, and asking her to either contact me or post here. If you already have specific communications with her, could you share them? I will certainly pass on whatever I get.

 

[Hues1]

Keep reaching there Jim...

Envelope-to: [email protected]
Delivery-date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 14:57:03 -0500

From: "Roger & Shelly" <
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hey Shelly...
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:58:32 -0700

I just talked to the guy in Idaho and he said he did not sell her any of
his Macks. He would never part with them. He has met her and says she
is very good a her upkeep of her animals, but to his knowledge she has
only been into geckos for a few months. He was at her house and didn't
see any there. But he also said that didn't mean she didn't have a set
up in the basement she didn't show him. Perhaps she bought some
breeders from somebody else who bought from both of us. Anyway, the guy
in Idaho is looking for her name and when he find it he will let me
know. I don't have records of selling to her but would like to double
check my records for her name. You wouldn't happen to know it would
you? Also, I e-mailed her from her Kingsnake ad selling the same leo
asking her to contact me

Your gripe is with this Mike West dude....like I said previously...go play in his sand box. If Shelly sold mike some Macks...thats all fine and dandy...doesnt change the fact that I did not, doesnt change the fact that they didnt purchase those animals from me either.

See the quote above there Jim ? Here it is again...

I just talked to the guy in Idaho and he said he did not sell her any of
his Macks.

So it's either them or this Mike West guy doing lotsa lying....but it doesnt have anything to do with me...now does it? You really think I want my name associated with these people at all?

Its really simple if you think about it....they've created a big ole mess for themselfs and in doing so have brought both I and Shelly involuntarily into this mess, I do not wish to be associated with this mess....get my drift? All I asked was that my name be removed from their listing....no more no less...keep reaching there Jim and I may surprise you and post a few more things I know about these people, Mike West and their transaction....which one again has nothing to do with me...got it?

How would you feel if I posted some chams stating I "acquired" my adult breeders from Jim at Chamco? Heh Jim? Wouldnt make any sense now would it?

 

[Hues1]

and for more clarification....where in this entire thread did I ever make a comment or statement that these people were "bad guys"?

All I stated was "beware" and based by the wording in their ads and "assumed" connection to me, its my every right to let people know that I do not wish to be associated with those people or their animals. what they do with their time, energy, space, animals, life or anything else is purely by their choice just as is my wishes to be not associated with them.

Jim...so I ask you again....

based on that statement...what would you assume?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, we seem to be getting further from the point.

Is this your beef?

I do not wish to be associated with those people or their animals.

If you did not sell any animals, or trade them, etc, to anyone up there, and if the bloodlines are in fact not yours, then that makes all the sense in the world. But if the bloodlines did originate from you, then your name is with them wherever they go, like it or not.

I believe this West kid is 16 years old. Here's what Shelley says:

I just talked to the guy in Idaho and he said he did not sell her any of his Macks.

So he really does have Macks now? Did anyone else out there get the impression earlier from Alex that this kid did not? And what if the receipt says that they were part of a trade !!!! Or what if the kid says he lied to you or Shelley because he promised Shelly he would not part with them!! He's not obligated to tell you the truth !! If he signed a receipt, case closed !!!

So, just pure conjecture here now on my part, but it seems the kid has Macks !! Is his sin that he sold them, or traded them? Is the sin of Wendy and Jeane that they did not get them directly from you, or get your permission ??

Alex, if its all about them wording things such that one might read that they got them directly from you, and they did not, that in fact they went through 1-2 other documented parties, then I can understand the request for them to make a clear distinction in their ads. If that's what has you all wrapped around the axle, OK, to each his own. An easy reading of the ad would give many others a different indication.

I will not bother to dispute the difference between "bad guy" and "beware". As soon as I figure out which one is favorable, I will let all know. Until then, they seem on the same side of the fence to me, kissing cousins in fact.

Lastly, this hypothetical that you pose:

How would you feel if I posted some chams stating I "acquired" my adult breeders from Jim at Chamco? Heh Jim? Wouldnt make any sense now would it?

I believe that I would ask you if I couldn't figure the link from the ad. If you then explained that you meant that you got them from someone I sold them to, had documentation, and I had a record of having sold them there, I may let it go at that point, or ask you only to make the link clear, lest someone had substituted animals along the way, as with poss-hets, hets, etc. But if you said you had a receipt, or written confirmation of trade, with a person who I knew had my animals, or could be shown to have acquired them, and this was a 16 year old kid who maybe betrayed a trust, the receipt would trump whatever the kid said.

We may just have to agree to disagree Alex. I take great exception to you wanting to come here to question the integrity of another vendor who has the documentation to show that they have a specific bloodline. You have made well-deserved money selling it, but once sold, it goes with the animals. What you have is second-hand heresay from a 16 year old kid. Wendy and Jeane have his signature. Oooops, he wasn't supposed to part with the ones he got from Shelley !! My problem is not with a 16 year old, its with you Alex. Why would anyone ever buy your bloodline name if they were going to get such a hassle trying to resell the animals, or the bloodlines?

 

[Hues1]

I guess what part of this big ole mess I dont want to be a part of dont you understand?

You've got a group of people using the phrase "acquired from" giving people the impression that they came from the breeder(s) listed, they say they bought them from this Mike West, this Mike West says he never sold them any...either way you've got somebody lying their butt off.

I sures the hell know I didnt sell any animals to these people or Mike West, so is it too much too ask that my name be left out of their listings?

So you say these people have receipts and signatures...blah blah blah blah blah....so what? The guy they purchased them from doesnt even acknowledge the fact he sold them !!!!!! Then on top of that he claimed he got them directly from me...so when the poop hits the fan and lets say those animals Jeane and Wendy received from this Mike West were fakes....well HELLO! but but but but....they were from Lizard Lair and Alex Hue. Excuse me for being concerned that my name is attached to those animals

But yet no mention of this Mike West in ANY of their listings....Hell why dont they just say they got them directly from John Mack !!!!! Considering he originated the line!

I dont really give a rats butt if they list them or not....just as long as they dont imply the animals may have come from me directly....so I ask you again Jim....

"Adult breeders acquired from Lizard and Alex Hue"....doesnt that sound like it implies the animals were purchased from me directly???

And if you really really really do your homework....you'll find out that I never once asked them to remove their ad, rework their ad, or anything of the sort...All I've asked for is that my name be left out of their listings due to the fact that the claimed one thing and this Mike West claimed another. Poop rolls down hill as if you didnt know.

Heres another shocker for you.....

I asked if they could e-mail a copy of the receipt just so I could see if they got taken by Mike West...and you know what...I never received it. You state above that they have all the paperwork and signatures...then I wonder why I would receive this e-mail

Reply-To: <[email protected]>
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Jeane Best" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mack snow female
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 02:47:34 -0500

Thanks again for the reply Wendy, let me know when you get the
receipt...its nice that people are interested and excited with the Mack
snows but its also a tarnish if people are trying to pass off regular
leopard geckos as Mack snows...it hurts us all, hopefully this will end
in a respectable resolution.

17 Mar 2006 07:34:27 +0000
X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]]
X-Sender: [email protected]
From: "Jeane Best" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mack snow female

I sent him an email right after I sent yours to ask him for his invoice
info on exact purchse dates, seller, ect..
I know they go to all the shows and deal with a lot of people. They
sell to all the stores here except for petsmart and petco. I know he
wouldn't make it up. I have seen their facility and his animals and they
are absolutely amazing. He runs a tight ship.
If anything, maybe he acquired some of them from someone you've sold
to. Like me I don't know. I am only speculating.
I am sure he will get back to me by tomm. But at the very worst case,
they delivery here on thursday and he will be here himself to pick up a
chameleon from me.
I will let you know as soon as I talk to him and his response. But I
can promise you that no one is in any way trying to use your name to
scam anyone if that is what you are thinking.
We have been dealing in reptiles for 7 years now. We know quiet a few
people in the circle. Anyone who knows us knows that we spend a lot of $
buying the very best animals out there. We conduct ourselves honesty and
with integrity. We don't buy low quality animals, and we don't any
animals without a bloodline guarantee. I don't believe in line breeding,
so I have to know where they come from.
That's why I only have the one pair of these. I bought them because
they are my favorite besides the bold striped you have made. There are
few too little available out there for me not to end up crossing lines
if I got into a big project with them. So I decided to breed them just
this season to make back some of the $ I put out for them. Then that's
it for me. To date they were the most expensive Leos I have purchased.
I plan to up the anny though and buy a bold stripe from you in the
future.

Care to comment on how they have all the paperwork as claimed in their ads that have been running for at least 2-3 weeks but yet they have to e-mail this guy in order to obtain it?

They claim this animal thats available was produced by them and is approx. 15 weeks old, that would put this baby at a hatch of around the first of week of January or so, Shelly sold these animals to Mike West in Early late August/Early September....they were all around 20 or so grams when Mike west received them., they were not breedable at the time. In order for these animals to be produced within that time frame...the animals Mike West received would've needed to be adults and in breeding mode, even then eggs maybe would've been laid around late November or Early December, than you take into account incubation takes approx. 40-60 days...going by those dates and numbers...its highly unlikely that those Mack Snows from Shelly could've produced this baby she is offering.

Jim...there's alot more to it that you dont know and for you to come out trying to turn this around is just plain ole B.S.

I put this up as a warning for prospective buyers and to let people who thought these originated from me know that they in fact did not originate from me. I'll say it again...no more...no less.

At this point in time there are too many inconsistencies with both Jeane/Wendy and Mike West that warrants the concern my name is attached to these animals in one form or another.

I'll say it again since you just dont get it....what they do is their perogative, I could care less.....however I do care about the fact that my name is being used to give people a sense of validity on animals that I will not validate.

I've had 3 people e-mail me asking for validity on this animal, thats how I heard about it...all the people whom e-mailed asking for validation stated that they were led to believe that one of the adult animals used to produce this animal originated from me directly.....well, thats false.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Alex, I will not disagree that once you sell a bloodline name

Others out there in the reptile world may use it a bit more loosely than you would like. While it is my belief that Mack Snows are a visual thing, and that the buyer should be able to look at them and know what they are getting, it seems reasonable that the middlemen in the bloodlines (such as yourself) may not be able to safeguard your name as well as you would like. Once you sell it, its out there.

We can let Jeane and Wendy debate their emails with you and others with you and others! That will likely happen tomorrow, once they are back at their computers.

I can understand not always liking the use of your name in places. With your very first post we have this:

I have NEVER sold these people (Jeane and Wendy ?) any Mack Snows, I e-mailed these folks and was told by them that they acquired their adult breeders from a guy in Idaho by the name of Mike West. I have never sold any Macks to a Mike West in Idaho either.

But at the time of this post, you were in possession of this communication from Shelley at Lizard Lair:

I just talked to the guy in Idaho and he said he did not sell her any of his Macks. He would never part with them.

So clearly, Shelley has mack snows. And what if he did part with them, even though he "never would" (sheeesh)! Simple question:

Did Shelley have mack snows from you?

Infer what you will about my lack of understanding, but can you clear up that one point? I have armor to shine. Thank you.

 

[Hues1]

So what if Shelley has Mack snows from me??? Hello.....they were claimed as originating from me directly. Mike West claimed to have purchased them directly from me, HE DID NOT. He sold them to Jeane and Wendy as animals that were from me, hard to do when I never sold him anything. I told them that I had not sold anything to a Mike West, morally correct thing to do would've been to remove my name from their listing..........are we there yet?

Fri, 17 Mar 2006 06:56:33 +0000
X-Originating-Email: [[email protected]]
X-Sender: [email protected]
From: "Jeane Best" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: mack snow female

Hi Alex. You are correct , I did not get him directly from you. My
mother (Jeane Best) DragonLady did a trade for him for my B'Day present.
She has got allot of animals from him over the last few years. He buys
large lots usually. They trade beardies for stuff. I have gotten several
leos and chams. Their family runs a large bugs cricket, supers, wax, and
mellies wholesale.
I know the uncle does the bugs, dad does the distribution and son is
the one who is into all the breeding, sons name is Mike West personal
email [email protected]'s<mailto:[email protected]'s>
all I know. I am not sure if he is the purchaser or the uncle or father
is. They are in Idaho.

But she(Jeane) gets home at 1:30 am from work, I will ask her his info.
I have been to his facility. He has Chams and Leos only. He has about 40
macks and super macks. He has been trying to talk me out of some of my
bold stripe jungles to make one like you have!
The one from you is beautiful! I feed him at midnight, I should send
you a photo then. He is 7 1/2" and 71 grams. Perfect patterns. Large
spots. I love him! These 2 (one listed) are his first. Since she has
laid 2X more. I just set her back to slow her down.
I will email you in a bit!

Did you even read my previous post??? The animals Shelly shipped to Mike West were 20 grams or so.....which means I didnt produce them....hello are we there yet????

 

[saltwaterreptiles]

Honest to god... and please feel free to tear me a new one or disect my post as well if you please. This seems pretty cut and dried to me. Regardless of the moprh, it could be any ol' thing, a snow, a sht, a bell.... whatever.... bottom line is these people said they came from Alex DIRECTLY, which they obviously did not. Alex wants his name removed from the ad as the ad is stating something that is wrong. He is in his rights to ask this in my opinion and it should be taken care of.