Jeff Gee -Captive Bred wildlife foundation- Bad Businessman

[reagorfu]

I agree with everything Clay has said in his above posts.

Vic,

You say Jeff has a thing for selling "het for nothing" animals, but in 1993 the hypomelanistic gene was still being figured out. Buying hets on any new morph is a risk if the genetics are still being figured out. It generally takes quite a few breedings to get the exact genetics down. Adults to siblings, siblings to siblings, siblings to normals, etc.. I understand your frustration with Jeff for raising his prices on the hypos, but did you two ever verbally agree on the price of $500 for the male that he was going to hold for you over the phone or did you just ask him to hold a male (no price talked about)?

if it is still being figured out than they should not be sold as hets. that is very simple. i have a very aberrant boa, and when i breed her i am not going to sell the babies as hets unless i keep them for a few years and prove them out. it would be dishonest.

 

[Kenbad1]

Jeff Gee, doesn't make good on anything unless forced to. I too was a victim by buying what he called het's for hypo boas in 1994. he said they were absolutely het's for hypo instead of saying the traits were unknown at the time. Oh yea he was pushing these as het's for hypo alright. I then sent him the money he wanted and told him to send them via UPS next day over night. He proceded to tell me he would not be responsible if anything happened to them if I wanted them shipped that way and I agreed as long as he followed my wishes to the letter and shipped them again "UPS next day over night". Well instead of doing what I asked he dropped them off at a place (store) called package.net paid them and left and the boas were shipped "Via ground service" in 110 degree heat and arrived at my door 10 days later looking like soup I almost had to throw up it smelled so much. Well when I called Jeff, to explain that I wanted a refund because he didn't ship my babies the way I asked he got very angry and told me he was still not responsible for them even though he didn't follow my instructions however he did offer me one regular boa worth about $30.00 to replace the two that I have lost but I would have to send him $60.00 to have it shipped Via Delta Dash. Since then I have heard many similar cases such as mine. I am sorry but I just don't believe Jeff, is a nice guy he just doesn't like loosing and I doubt given the chance will make good on those very expensive het's that have been discussed here. I believe the man in California, who Big Vic, was referring to who had to sue to get his 25,000 back was also offered those F5 hypos it seems nobody wants them or believes they are worth the price.

 

[Kenbad1]

Jeff Gee, doesn't make good on anything unless forced to. I too was a victim by buying what he called het's for hypo boas in 1994. he said they were absolutely het's for hypo instead of saying the traits were unknown at the time. Oh yea he was pushing these as het's for hypo alright. I then sent him the money he wanted and told him to send them via UPS next day over night. He proceded to tell me he would not be responsible if anything happened to them if I wanted them shipped that way and I agreed as long as he followed my wishes to the letter and shipped them again "UPS next day over night". Well instead of doing what I asked he dropped them off at a place (store) called package.net paid them and left and the boas were shipped "Via ground service" in 110 degree heat and arrived at my door 10 days later looking like soup I almost had to throw up it smelled so much. Well when I called Jeff, to explain that I wanted a refund because he didn't ship my babies the way I asked he got very angry and told me he was still not responsible for them even though he didn't follow my instructions however he did offer me one regular boa worth about $30.00 to replace the two that I have lost but I would have to send him $60.00 to have it shipped Via Delta Dash. Since then I have heard many similar cases such as mine. I am sorry but I just don't believe Jeff, is a nice guy he just doesn't like loosing and I doubt given the chance will make good on those very expensive het's that have been discussed here. I believe the man in California, who Big Vic, was referring to who had to sue to get his 25,000 back was also offered those F5 hypos it seems nobody wants them or believes they are worth the price.

 

[Kenbad1]

Sorry for the double post

 

[Martino Reptiles]

I agree with everything Clay has said in his above posts.

Vic,

You say Jeff has a thing for selling "het for nothing" animals, but in 1993 the hypomelanistic gene was still being figured out. Buying hets on any new morph is a risk if the genetics are still being figured out. It generally takes quite a few breedings to get the exact genetics down. Adults to siblings, siblings to siblings, siblings to normals, etc.. I understand your frustration with Jeff for raising his prices on the hypos, but did you two ever verbally agree on the price of $500 for the male that he was going to hold for you over the phone or did you just ask him to hold a male (no price talked about)?

if it is still being figured out than they should not be sold as hets. that is very simple. i have a very aberrant boa, and when i breed her i am not going to sell the babies as hets unless i keep them for a few years and prove them out. it would be dishonest.

Exactly right Reagorfu.

Why market something that has genetically unknown? We rag on people all the time on the faunna selling BP's as "new and unproven morphs" for ridiculous prices, what makes Mr. Gee exempt from this same marketing ploy in 1994?



No good named breeder would do that, especially with his name on the line for commanding the higher price tag.

And yes, verbally we did agree on the $500.00 price tag for the boas. Otherwise, why for goodness sake would make the trek from NYC to PA for just some het. for Albino Balls that Steve Osborne could have easily shipped me prior? Doesn't make much sense considering. The $500.00 price tag was discussed months in advance, and we keep in touch during the course of a few months leading up to the show.

- Vic

 

[viridisnakes]

Really surprised.

I am really surprised that no one has talked about the email from Jeff to Mike.

"Mike. Glad to hear the mites are gone, as I expected. Again sorry for that. Yes they were born in 2003.
Their father was a Albino from Pete Kahl , their mother was a Leopard Boa from Hans Winner. Both are good friends of mine."

You would think it would have been easy for a friend of Hans to verify the genetics of these Boas. It appears that Mike was able to with one simple email, you would really think a friend would have been able to. He represented them as from known proven animals. I don't know. To me this takes it from a simple case of bad business to something more. Am I over reading into this. As a victim of TSE, I really hate to see this kind of thing happening.

Chris Rouille

 

[gideongabriel]

I agree with everything Clay has said in his above posts.

Vic,

You say Jeff has a thing for selling "het for nothing" animals, but in 1993 the hypomelanistic gene was still being figured out. Buying hets on any new morph is a risk if the genetics are still being figured out. It generally takes quite a few breedings to get the exact genetics down. Adults to siblings, siblings to siblings, siblings to normals, etc.. I understand your frustration with Jeff for raising his prices on the hypos, but did you two ever verbally agree on the price of $500 for the male that he was going to hold for you over the phone or did you just ask him to hold a male (no price talked about)?

Jeff was still selling het for hypos last year at the Tinley show. I thought then and I still think he may have had his time, but excuse me for being frank, he is a joke. How can anyone sell het for hypos as late as 2006.., let alone F5 hypos for 5k (those snakes have been online for at least 3 years now).....unbelievable.

Bob McPhee

 

[Martino Reptiles]

Jeff was still selling het for hypos last year at the Tinley show. I thought then and I still think he may have had his time, but excuse me for being frank, he is a joke. How can anyone sell het for hypos as late as 2006.., let alone F5 hypos for 5k (those snakes have been online for at least 3 years now).....unbelievable.

Bob McPhee

Indeed Bob. 1994 it was believable. In 2007, it's just pathetic.

 

[dberes]

Jeff was still selling het for hypos last year at the Tinley show. I thought then and I still think he may have had his time, but excuse me for being frank, he is a joke. How can anyone sell het for hypos as late as 2006.., let alone F5 hypos for 5k (those snakes have been online for at least 3 years now).....unbelievable.

Bob McPhee

If he is still selling het for hypos then that definitely isn't good.

Marketing in this industry has changed over the years. Comparing the BP craze of today to the marketing in 1993 when few morphs were around is like comparing movie special effects from then and now. They started off in a few movies and were crappy, but both have evolved overtime. The difference with todays marketing is <b>some</b> seller's try trickier wording for what the animal could possibly be when the honest sellers just sell the animal for what it is.

I agree it wasn't right to raise the price on the hypo that Vic was going to buy that they had already agreed on. Of course Gee can raise the price, but ethically its pretty low and he gets the reputation he is getting now from it and the other things he's done.

On a side note, I did buy a infamous normal Possible Double Het Ghost from one of the biggest boa breeders of today in 1999. He did do his job and explained the situation about the hypo gene not likely be in the boa, but he was still selling them as a possible double het ghost. I bought the boa, because it was a gorgeous animal (I didn't care for the possible genes part).

As for Mr. Gee. I already said i'll be a part of the lynch mob if he doesn't try to make it right...

 

[Jim O]

I don't mean to go too far off topic here but who made the post captured in the attachment. I'd like to remind you that your full name is required in all BOI posts. Which is it and why are there two?

 

[Martino Reptiles]

If he is still selling het for hypos then that definitely isn't good.

Marketing in this industry has changed over the years. Comparing the BP craze of today to the marketing in 1993 when few morphs were around is like comparing movie special effects from then and now. They started off in a few movies and were crappy, but both have evolved overtime. The difference with todays marketing is <b>some</b> seller's try trickier wording for what the animal could possibly be when the honest sellers just sell the animal for what it is.

Regardless of how you want to compare the two so you can understand it, the practice of selling an unproven morph or selling an animal with a "sly written" ad implying the animal is more than what is, it is unethical. No sugar coding it, no adding any special flavors to the mix, it's unethical. We can discuss clever marketing schemes all day long with how you can sell a ice-cream to an eskimo if you know how to sell, but that type of marketing in my opinion, does not have a place in herpetoculture.[/QUOTE]

As for Mr. Gee. I already said i'll be a part of the lynch mob if he doesn't try to make it right...

Luckily for us we have such a place on the internet to discuss these matters and have a small part of the populus see what is going on. Lynch mob for some, informative avenue for others.

- Vic Martino

 

[Rockford]

WOW! What a loser......sorry for your loss. Hopefully you get some compensation for them but I would go the law route considering if you take of it Clay's way you might just end up in jail for a long time..... and that's no bueno.

Also, don't kid yourself..... he is not a good businessman nor is he a good person. No one in the right mind would offer something for YOU to sell as compensation. He has other things to sell and if he really wanted to get you your money back HE COULD.

It may be a pain in the ass but winning a judgement will get you your money eventually. He is a homeowner and if he re-finances or sells his property you will be paid.

One more thing......MITES?? Are you kidding from someone that's into Boas...mites are thought to carry many diseases including IBD. I had a snake come in with mites that never got out of quarantine(one year and I disclosed to new buyer it diid have them at one point). Maybe we should all give up our snakes and collect coins, huh??....simply and utterly ridiculous in my opinion....

I feel horrible for you. 8K isn't small change and I really wish you the best in this matter......good luck

 

[Combs69]

Thanks Brett and eveyone else who has shown support.
Perhaps there is more then meets the eye with this guy?
Im just trying to keep it cool on my side, I have a family and doing anything other then legal ways to deal with this is not an option for me.
There is a thing such as karma, and Im sure he has the means to make this right, im almost certain at this point, he dont want to.
The only reason i say he is a bad businessman and seems like a good guy, is because of our few phone conversations, but it does seem his actions and history indicate otherwise. So be it.

I only wanted for the public to be aware of the way he has dealt with me from the begining.
Hope to see you all at Daytona!

Mike

 

[blueapplepaste]

I agree, that if he has snakes that are worth so much, then he should sell them and give you the money. It's his burden to do so, not yours.

 

[gideongabriel]

Sorry Jim

I don't mean to go too far off topic here but who made the post captured in the attachment. I'd like to remind you that your full name is required in all BOI posts. Which is it and why are there two?

Actually I made the post, (Robert McPhee)
for some reason I am getting signed on as Bryan Piggott....
he used my cpu last.

Bob McPhee

 

[robertmcphee]

Alright I now fixed it. It will be coming up as myself...Robert McPhee.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Actually I made the post, (Robert McPhee)
for some reason I am getting signed on as Bryan Piggott....
he used my cpu last.

Bob McPhee

In his defense I have a shared PC as well. I've had 1 incident of typing and submitting a post under my name and the actual post come up on the other users screen name. I'm guessing one of the glitches of the server move or other issues that Fauna is having. Hitting the back button on more than a few occasions has also put one of us under the other users screen name.

 

[dzoo]

Yes Viridisnakes I agree I'm surprised this was not mentioned:
From post #5
Jeff Gee writes in his explanation that he was aware the female was non Hans Winner line:

In 2003 I bought 3.3 baby boas guarenteed 100% double het for albino Leopard. The breeder Thomas/Andrea Barthleon of Austria sent me photos of a Pete Kahl Albino male breeding a Leopard Boa female. He made a point os informing me the Leopard was "non Winner line".

But sent Mike this email (post #6):

Subj: Re: Hello part 2
Date: 11/29/2005 10:53:56 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: [email protected] (Jeff Gee)
To: [email protected]
Mike. Glad to hear the mites are gone, as I expected. Again sorry for that. Yes they were born in 2003. Their father was a Albino from Pete Kahl , their mother was a Leopard Boa from Hans Winner. Both are good friends of mine. They were produced by another friend in Europe. We have had them about 2 years now & they have always been great feeders & never had any problems. In fact they are now looking much nicer than when babies, the colors are getting better with each shed. As babies they looked darker, I know both parents were choice animals, so I expect some very nice babies. Too bad you now want to sell them? I think they are a very good investment. I tried yesterday to call you & left a mesage. I hope this helps & if you need anything else just let me know.
thanks, Jeff

Captive Bred Wildlife Foundation
Jeff & Kim Gee

So the person Jeff bought them from specified the female was not from Hans Winner but then Jeff tells Mike it specifically is?

 

[dzoo]

Also, how is someone with "no money" to give a refund going to buy 15 top quality Radiated Tortoises? Don't they go for a couple grand each?

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=43&de=506454

 

[Combs69]

Glad you noticed.
The radiated tortoise thing is a little disheartening.
But what can ya do? All i can do is ask for my money back.
He has offered me some ivory sulcatas. He does seem like he wants to make it right with animals, but does not want to come off the money.
Thats the way it goes sometimes. I will just hope for the best.

Thanks all
Mike