LLL Reptile - Unhappy

[Dennis1]

"But she didnt order fly maggots,She ordered wax worms

Thats like ordering a snake from them and it coming with mites!!!
And i think we all know thats wrong

LLL should call their supplier and DEMAND they get rid of those flies and APOLOGIZE profusly after giving a refund!!! "

Dennis I understand she didnt order fly maggots, I was just makeing a bit of humor out of what in MY OPINION is a waste of all our time.

Anyone who has every been around anything that has died (like say a wax worm) know that if left at optimum temps and exposed to the chance, maggots will appear. Did the wax worms arrive with a cup of dead worms with maggots and LLL refused to refund? Nope didnt sound like that to me. Sounds like user error and plain on "poo" happening to me. Im not sticking up for LLL Im just saying it seems to be a pretty big waste of a thread to me.

I would just like to say that I can see both sides of the story
And that i dont think i would start a B.O.I. thread on FLIES (the same thing happened to me and i didnt)
But i dont complain about second hand smoke either
I wouldn't chastise a person for doing it either
I hate them Bugs

 

[Dennis1]

Ha ha! Silly! It not like getting mites with your snakes. Its like getting a snake and her litter of young. Some would say thats Christmas come early.

Demand an apology...BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

No i think it Probaby be like an anaconda having disease carrying garters as offspring

Denise....youre a riot.

You know i like you chuck so im going to let that Denise thing slide
So before we hijack this post Have you thought about my offer?

 

[Junkyard]

"It is fine that you find it OK to receive infested feeders. I disagree. I did not order them with maggots, thus I should not have received them as such. It has come to that this issue came from either the supplier having an infestation or eggs were laid by breeding flies via shipment. None of us will ever know 100% though. LLL denies their supplier having an infestation. So I guess we must assume that the problem started via shipment.

Thank you for your contribution!"




Should I take this as you being facetious. The last thing LLL cares about is YOU. They will sell what they want and deny any problems. Check the local newspaper articles about them, they are "Millionaires" You have learned a great lesson here, do not buy from LLL again. They will not refund you any money, check their guarantee, by this time you are now stuck.


Straight from their website under Guarantee:
"Notification of dissatisfaction must be made within 24 hours if you notice any problem upon arrival."

"Our guarantee is void if you do not have the proper environment to house the animal in (for example, putting a bearded dragon in a plastic kritter keeper is not appropriate). This includes temperature, bedding, and proper lighting."

You waited a week before telling them about your dissatisfaction and you did not keep them in a proper environment. You are right, you will never know when the infestation started. But if you want, you can post a unhappy about the shipper since you are going no where with LLL. I will even share all my unhappy experiences I have had with carriers.

 

[Jungle Gems]

They may have all of those things on their bodies but guess what? So do you. So do waxworms. See, you are talking to a medical doctor and I am interested in facts, not supposition. What you have posted is supposition or anecdote and when I asked you to support it you answered "just Google" it. So now I will challenge you and say you are wrong. Those fly larvae that are in the SAME media as the waxworms have the same common flora on them. I'm not talking about larvae that you pick off a pile of poo in your yard. And even then, I doubt that you will find a case in the scientific literature where serious human disease in otherwise healthy individuals is caused by a non-biting insect.

Your reaction is an emotional one, as was the reaction of the starter of this thread. She had those waxies for a week. If I were LLL I would not have issued a refund. Especially where she left them out by her own admission.

Ageed. I'd like to point out that one of the best feeder insects available for your reptiles today, the roach is a "known" vector for diseases and such. This certainly does not stop me from purchasing roaches to feed to my animals who relish this excellent source of protein. I'm quite sure that flies are *capable* of carrying deseases just as any other creature in the entire planet would be, but are not necessarily more prone to carry diseases than any other animal simply due to their life-cycle. Catfish, crabs, lobsters and other scavenger animals devour rotting animal matter as their staple diet, but people eat those animals every day without any ill effects (other than allergies in some). Personally, I'd be MUCH more worried about receiving mites and would find that to be a legitimate reason to complain. It seems that small arachnids (fleas, mites, ticks, etc.) are much more likely to transmit serious pathogens.

Also, many countries that practice holistic medicine utilize the beginning larval stages of flies in human medicine to dress deep and necrotic wounds. The maggots consume the necrotic tissue from the patient while at the same time cleaning the wound and allowing fresh tissue to grow.

Gettin hungry yet?

 

[critical bill]

If maggots are dirty disease ridden insect larvae then why are they used in cleaning wounds? Is there a certain species of larvae that is only used for wounds? One that is cleaner than its diseased counterparts I keep hearing about in this thread?

I would think the adult fly is a more likely transmitter of disease having the easy ability to come in such contact with them and travel on to spread them. Would this disease be passed on through the larvae? If not then all the fly did was land and lay its eggs. Bye fly bye disease. No?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm not sure why this keeps being asked...

But the only time these waxies were left out after I received them was 10-12 hours in my air conditioned home (more specifically, my reptile room). As it has been said; that is no where near enough time for the laying cycle of a fly to become complete. In fact, due to them being kept in my fridge for 4-6 days...It slows the process down.

Junkyard --- I was not being facetious. I really have no other experience with LLL. I will not slap blame on them for something that technically is at the fault of their supplier. I am NOT pleased with them simply brushing it off and telling me that unknown larva is ok to feed to my animals. I sent them a picture and they weren't sure what they were even then...but insisted it was ok to feed them to my leos. I also am NOT pleased because they INSIST that their supplier couldn't possibly have an infestation problem. Also, I did not keep them in the "proper environment" according to THEIR opinion. It has been said here (along with my own personal experience) that it is common practice to keep waxies at room temperature.

Thanks everyone!

 

[montezuma]

Wow, and again its back to step one... should this keep going on in circles as it has been?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

EXACTLY...and I hate to keep repeating myself! I just see posts where I think the poster hasn't read through the whole thread (though why would any one want to go through 18 pages???).

 

[Junkyard]

I found this website, about a flys life cycle:

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/flies/life_cycle.htm

Eggs
* present in clumps of up to 300
* laying to hatching takes 1 day

Larva - 1st instar
* initially feeds on fluid exuded from the body
* migrates into body
* hatching to first moult takes 1 day

Larva - 2nd instar
* moves around in maggot mass
* first moult to second moult takes 1 day

Larva - 3rd instar
* still moves in mass
* greatly increases in size
* second moult to pre-pupa takes 2 days



Just a quick reference guide to flys. 10-12 hours is long enough for one fly to lay eggs, 300 or not. Flys are dirty lttle buggers they do a lot of things in a short amount of time. The blow fly at 70 degrees can be a larvae in 23 hours, pump the temps up to reptile room temps and I am sure the times it takes to hatch a fly egg is reduced. Of course if the fly layed its eggs when you first opened the cup the day day you received the waxies then it makes sense as to why they would have hatched between the 10-12 hours you had spaced between opening the container the 2nd day.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Junkyard - Thanks for the information. My house is kept at 73-74 degrees...Including the reptile room...No high temperatures.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

*sigh* I just typed a really long post...and clicked on an email and this post got rebooted. Let me try again...

I just took a longer look at the website you provided (and made the mistake of clicking on the "maggot" section...ICKY PICTURES!). According to the site, it takes 21-48 hours at 68 degrees for eggs to turn into larva. Since I don't know the particular species, let's estimate 30 hours (right in between there). Even at 6 degrees higher then the recommended "incubating" temperature, 10-12 hours is still too short for hatching. That would be cutting "incubation" in half over a few degrees! Fridges are kept at what, 30 degrees or so? I'm surprised the eggs went dormint and didn't simply die. I guess though they have to be strong little buggers!

I wanted to note...It would have been impossible for a fly to lay eggs in my container upon first arrival...The only time it was open was when it was in my hands!

Now, I am going to try and stop running around in circles on this thread. I don't want to be inconsiderate to individuals who continue to contribute...but this really is going no where.

I will let it up to whomever reads this to decide whether to take LLL's advice and feed unknown larva to their animals. I also will let those same people the opportunity to decide if they want to risk receiving infested animals from LLL and/or their supplier. As for feeding maggots to your reptile, to each his own! I don't wish to...Nor do I wish to have them in the feeders I do purchase!

** I also wanted to add, since I got questioned privately (thank you) and I don't want ANY misinterpretation...I do NOT keep my reptiles at 73-74 degrees...This is the temperature of my HOUSE...Each rack and/or stack of caging is heated via heat tape and/or bulbs and controlled by a thermostate to achieve the proper thermoregulation per species **

Again, thank you to all who have contributed!

 

[Dennis1]

Please Dont Try Anything On This Post At HOME!

Ageed. I'd like to point out that one of the best feeder insects available for your reptiles today, the roach is a "known" vector for diseases and such. This certainly does not stop me from purchasing roaches to feed to my animals who relish this excellent source of protein.

Maybe i should go downtown and gather some roaches for people and sell them I wonder if i would get rich?

I'm quite sure that flies are *capable* of carrying deseases just as any other creature in the entire planet would be, but are not necessarily more prone to carry diseases than any other animal simply due to their life-cycle. Catfish, crabs, lobsters and other scavenger animals devour rotting animal matter as their staple diet, but people eat those animals every day without any ill effects (other than allergies in some). Personally, I'd be MUCH more worried about receiving mites and would find that to be a legitimate reason to complain. It seems that small arachnids (fleas, mites, ticks, etc.) are much more likely to transmit serious pathogens.

And if anyone eats those things raw they will most likely get sick.

Also, many countries that practice holistic medicine utilize the beginning larval stages of flies in human medicine to dress deep and necrotic wounds. The maggots consume the necrotic tissue from the patient while at the same time cleaning the wound and allowing fresh tissue to grow.

Gettin hungry yet?

Like i said i Dont Pretend to be a doctor,But i would think its a safe bet the medical profession doesnt collect just any maggots to eat the dead tissue of their patients,I doubt they even collect them, i will bet they are bred and screened(for diseases and such) for that particular purpose

I would like to go on to say That i am in no way picking on Ms.Webb or any of the others that posted contrary to my posts,I just disagree with them

I am fairly new to fauna,And i dont wish to presume that i am giving anybody thats been a long time poster advice,
But i would like to give some advice to the new people in this hobby

Some people may read this post and think its allright to do these things
Please Dont Try Anything On This Post At HOME!
Dont eat raw bottom feeders(you will most likely get sick)
Dont feed uncultured insects to your reptiles(your pet will most likely get sick)
Dont put Uncultured maggots on your wounds(you will most likely get sick)

 

[Jungle Gems]

I don't know of any wild animals that cook their food before eating it. I don't know what nature shows you've been watching lately (perhaps Evolving Animal Planet).

Of course since the maggots in question are raised for medicinal purposes they aren't just gathered off a farm out of a manure pile, but they are raised the same way feeding heartily on ROTTING FLESH. Just something to ponder...

 

[Jungle Gems]

Some people may read this post and think its allright to do these things
Please Dont Try Anything On This Post At HOME!
Dont eat raw bottom feeders(you will most likely get sick)
Dont put Uncultured maggots on your wounds(you will most likely get sick)

*Most* people on this board at least have a small degree of common sense. I don't think my post necessitated a warning label.

By the way, welcome to the BOI.

 

[Dennis1]

I don't know of any wild animals that cook their food before eating it. I don't know what nature shows you've been watching lately (perhaps Evolving Animal Planet).

Of course since the maggots in question are raised for medicinal purposes they aren't just gathered off a farm out of a manure pile, but they are raised the same way feeding heartily on ROTTING FLESH. Just something to ponder...

Now im just confused

 

[Burma Boy]

I believe even in the US the use of maggots on necrotic tissue is practiced. Especially on burn patients.
And the reason pathogens are not passed on, is that as the maggot processes the material, ammonia is produced. An antibacterial.
And for what it's worth, while hunting in warm weather, game is dressed immediately in the field. By time the game is carried back to the vehicle, there are already maggots on it. Far less time than 10 hours.
I'd feed the maggots to my animals...or at very least use them for bait.

 

[Dennis1]

I believe even in the US the use of maggots on necrotic tissue is practiced. Especially on burn patients.
And the reason pathogens are not passed on, is that as the maggot processes the material, ammonia is produced. An antibacterial.

I guess i do learn somthing everyday

And for what it's worth, while hunting in warm weather, game is dressed immediately in the field. By time the game is carried back to the vehicle, there are already maggots on it. Far less time than 10 hours.
I'd feed the maggots to my animals...or at very least use them for bait.

I cant argue with your logic ive heard horror stories about that
But i think we would all think twice before wiping maggots off of our bigmac
and eating it...lol Maybe Micky Dees could charge more for the maggots

 

[Jim O]

Actually maggots are not uncommonly used in massive tissue trauma be it from burns or major crush injuries. Sometimes they are even sewn into wounds to aid healing. In all fairness though, they are raised in labs under controlled conditions and subject to FDA standards. They don't pull them off a freshly killed deer (or day old Big Macs).

Leeches still have some medical uses and not that long ago a leech derived anticoagulant was tested for use in heart attacks. One new project is testing a component of gila monster venom to treat diabetes. And don't forget that Dr. Fleming discovered penicillin when a mold growing in a culture of Staphylococcus aureus had an area of clearing around it. Many if not most antibiotics are derived or synthesized from fungal products.

 

[raiquee]

I have only read to page 4 but thought i would throw this out there.

I work in a local pet store, and we order waxies every 2 or so weeks. About 4000 at a time. We NEVER had put them in the fridge, and i never do at home either. I tried it once before, and they seemed to do terrible because they are such...well i guess delicate larva. Not like a mealie with all that chitin (sp?) coating

Just throwing it out there. We have yet to get maggots.

I personally don't like maggots but wouldn't have that much of a problem. I would let them know of their infestation and that i was upset, but after that just leave it be. I wouldn't feed maggots to my leos either because well...i don't like 'em! hehe.

 

[Borewyrm]

I don't know of any wild animals that cook their food before eating it. I don't know what nature shows you've been watching lately (perhaps Evolving Animal Planet).

Of course since the maggots in question are raised for medicinal purposes they aren't just gathered off a farm out of a manure pile, but they are raised the same way feeding heartily on ROTTING FLESH. Just something to ponder...

You would be wrong. They are not raised on rotting flesh, rather they are fed a special gut load that does not consist of animal flesh. They are also sterialized before shipment. There actually is no major supplier of maggots in the US anymore as the cost was prohibitive.