Bad Guy Matt Martin-Monster Cages sold fake genetics, and now won't answer for it.

[JustChad04]

How did these snakes magically become double het blizzards, when you started selling them as het albino....

1. I dont see why you are complaining about this? If the animal(s) was purchased as a SD het albino, and it was later changed to SD het blizzard ( het albino, PH anxantic), I would not be complaining I would be thanking.

2. You boast as if you know soo much about hets, and come off disgruntled about allegitely not being told it was Poss het, so my question to you is why didn't you do your homework????? c'mon If there has never been a DH for blizzard before you werent a little suspicious about it being proven?

3. this is all off the "assumption" you make that your brother bought them sold as DH Blizz, you ask matt for proof of emails of him telling your brother it was PH, yet you nor your brother has yet to provide one single email yourselves of this. The only evidence you have provides us was a screenshot of matts website listing the animals, which where being sold as SD HET ALBINOS!

This is why I keep all my emails as records... A common practice the majority of us do, and yet you who boast as an experienced person in this industry has not and are making outrageous claims and demants to Matt? This is not better than the woman who sued McDonalds for spilling hot coffee on her lap... I dont blame him for not responding.

Your story is broken, you have no proof yourselves, and you demand proof of what you should keep yourselves.

Have your brother provide the email traffic between Matt and himself, If he does not have them than your losses.

And please stop saying "You have yet to answer my original question Matt" because you already answered it yourself.

 

[Stone Reptiles]

I can completely see why. after selling you snakes. Matt and his Kru would want to cut all ties with you. It's obvious to everyone. I'd be surprised if any big breeders ever dealw ith you after this.

 

[DesertRat73]

Given your difficulty in understanding "poss het/unproven genetics", I'd take that little web search of yours to a lawyer and have him straighten you out. You're not in the position you think you are with the wire tapping bit, and you've put it out here for all to see.

Sure have been a lot of "Bad Guy" threads started lately with no more foundation other than someone not jumping when someone else snapped their fingers. And this one... being upset because he may have something better than he expected...ROFL

 

[Revelation]

Here you go. And because Matt lives in the state of Minnesota, which only requires ONE party to know the conversation is being recorded, its legal.

Under United States federal law and most state laws there is nothing illegal about one of the parties to a telephone call recording the conversation, or giving permission for calls to be recorded or permitting their telephone line to be tapped. However, several states (i.e., California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington) require that all parties consent when one party wants to record a telephone conversation

(18 U.S.C. §2511(2)(d))

Angel Rojas- Location: Wyncote, PA

 

[Angel Rojas]

Here you go. And because Matt lives in the state of Minnesota, which only requires ONE party to know the conversation is being recorded, its legal. There were 2 parties in the convo, my brother and matt, and my brother knew the call was being recorded......That's all that's needed....a simple Google search, and I'm sure you won't need any more proof.

Do you people read, or just post on a whim. Revelation, how about you read the bottom where it say answer....smh.....see I can quote too. Also that email was sent to me AFTER my brother had already had the snakes. That email was also sent to me when I contacted Matt about buying a pair myself.

 

[Angel Rojas]

And I find it funny how people are derailing this thread, and getting matt off the hook when answering questions. So Matt once again here are the questions...and don't try and overlook them as you have been doing.

1. How could you sell the snakes as double het blizzards, when you yourself hadn't proven it out yet.

2. Where is your proof that you told my brother about the possibility that it wasn't genetic.

 

[Angel Rojas]

And for those of you that keep talking about the genetics.....please remember that these snakes were sold as 100% het for blizzard.....not poss hets or anything else.....100% HET BLIZZARD

 

[reticguy76]

two things: please post the paperwork with 100% dh blizzard that guarantees genetics. also, you realize even when you breed a pair of dh anything, there are always great chances not to hit on the ultimate gene. look at ben renicks ghost/gstrip. he tried it for years before another breeder hit on it earlier this season. hets, poss hets, double hets, etc (even though they may be "100%), you are not guaranteed the ultimate genetic outcome of those hets.

also, if one knows (going from what has been said here numerous times) that the genetics arent proven, why would you buy them presumably as 100% hets and then come here and bash the breeder/seller.

you asked where the proof is by matt about the possilbilty of the snakes not being genetic, where is your proof that it was (ie, paperwork).

waste of yet another thread. unless you deal directly with the visual version of any morph, nothing is a full guarantee. come on now, some common sense.

 

[Riyeko]

All of this, can be explained with this.

 

[laterob]

My brother and I invested into a pair of Matt Martin's "double het blizzard" retics.

(Post 1 - Angel)

I invested a lot of money into this blizzard project

(Post 10 - attributed to Jesus, not Angel)

and the conveersation was recorded and will be posted here soon

(Post 51 - Angel)

Also that email was sent to me AFTER my brother had already had the snakes. That email was also sent to me when I contacted Matt about buying a pair myself.

(Post 105 - Angel)


Angel - 1.) What if the odds simply didn't hit this year and this combo proves genetic next year? 2.) What are you looking for, as far as restitution or resolution? 3.) Are you going to post that conversation? I am curious what could have been said that was so damning. 4.) Given, for a minute, that the snakes are only Het Albino. In terms of trade value, how much did you/Jesus lose (and who's snakes were traded?) 5.) Who bought the snakes? You? Jesus? Both? (Did you ever prove you aren't the same person?).

You may have fair points about the paperwork and these hets POSSIBLY being 'amped-up', but a lot of folks have said they understood these to be possible hets. Even if 'proven', your odds are 1 in 16, so it's probably not your retirement on the line.

I think you use the Angel/Jesus thing to your advantage, trying to twist things around on other people. I thought you were headed in a good direction, becoming more active, building more karma.....but then you went and tantrumed again. I think people are doing this to you, and I do understand why.

 

[Stone Reptiles]

Jesus, Angel. I think you have a split personality. No need to post fake family photo's. thanks.

You paid 3k for a pair of guaranteed DH Blizzards what two or three years ago? You didn't smell something fishy?
You don't mention a frigging thing about this untill you ask a question on the Kru page, and someone who doesnt like you/your brother. deletes your post. Suddenly ALL of this starts?

Again. you said earlier. you paid $3k for a pair of DH Blizzards? Your either Lieing Or you/your so called brother are clueless and should give up on this hobby.

And please stop using the Jesus/Angel Angel, Jesus crap to spin in circles. Try terms like "we" and it'll stop appearing to people like your simply running circles.

Liars Will always be dramatic liars it seems.

 

[AggielandReptiles]

Hmm.... Lets clear some things up about hets.

First we'll look at a single trait. Lets start by assuming both parents are heterozygous for a this trait. We need to use binomial probability to calculate the probability of offspring being produced that are homozygous recessive (phenotypic) for the trait in question. This formula is: P(k out of N) = N!k!(N-k)! / (pk)(qN-k)

So.... if only 1 offspring hatches, its easy. We have a 25% chance of producing the phenotype we're looking for.
Lets look at the following chart. All probabilities given as P(k greater than or equal to 1):
2-.438
3-.578
4-.684
5-.763
6-.822
7-.866
8-.899
9-.925
10-.944
11-.958

SO, in statistics, normally we like to have a confidence interval of at least 95% in order to assume something is "significant". So as you can see, for a single het trait, 11 offspring from this pair would need to be produced in order to be "sure" they aren't truly hets.

Now, lets look at 2 traits.... even better The probability of a double het cross produces double heterozygous recessive (the desired phenotype), we have a 1/16 probability, or .0625. For simplicities sake I'll just calculate our 95% CI.

At N=47, we get a P(k greater than or equal to 1) = .952

So, to TRULY prove a double het cross aren't really double hets you would need to produce 47 normal offspring without producing the double homozygous phenotype. It takes a lot to say for sure a double het pair isn't double het...

P.S. If you have any questions about genetics, probabilities, etc, I'm always happy to help.

 

[reticguy76]

that sums it up pretty well right there. just because matt didnt produce a "blizzard" from his double het breeding his first time, doesnt mean anything. it might not hit the blizzard odds for another 5 years or 22 tries or whatever.

this thread was way premature and pretty much a wasted effort. Now, as so scientifically said above, if after 47 tries and no blizzard is produced, this thread would probably be warranted and justified. until then, hets can be and are a patience thing and never a guarantee (with one recessive, let alone getting into mulitple recessive genes in one pairing)

 

[Stone Reptiles]

Very well written up Nicely done.

Still won't be understandable for the Op. Thick headedness is not something you can teach out of someone.. This person seems to insist they are right and everyone will listen, and they won't give up until everyone agrees

 

[Angel Rojas]

Jesus, Angel. I think you have a split personality. No need to post fake family photo's. thanks.

You paid 3k for a pair of guaranteed DH Blizzards what two or three years ago? You didn't smell something fishy?
You don't mention a frigging thing about this untill you ask a question on the Kru page, and someone who doesnt like you/your brother. deletes your post. Suddenly ALL of this starts?

Again. you said earlier. you paid $3k for a pair of DH Blizzards? Your either Lieing Or you/your so called brother are clueless and should give up on this hobby.

And please stop using the Jesus/Angel Angel, Jesus crap to spin in circles. Try terms like "we" and it'll stop appearing to people like your simply running circles.

Liars Will always be dramatic liars it seems.

Mr. Stone, none of your posts here are legitimate, and only incite more drama..... and please show me where I said I paid 3k for them.... And I simply cannot believe the hypocritical people on here. I'm willing to bet anything that if YOU had posted something on a breeder's page about HIS snakes AND HIS genetics, and they were deleted EVERY TIME, you would think something shady was going on to.....so please stop with the holyier than thou attitudes

 

[reticguy76]

they were probably deleted to avoid the drama on his page for premature and illegitimate accusations and claims.
facts: they are not proven genetic double hets until a "blizzard" is produced.
because they werent "proven" with a blizzard his first breeding, doesnt mean they
not proven.

please provide proof in writing where he said they are 100% double het blizzard. blizzards havent been made yet. if the axanthic/anery gene is proven, thats one thing, but if its not compatible with the albino gene. all that makes them are double het axanthic, anery/albino. kinda like the amel and clard albino genes for example. both are proven genetic, but they are not compatible (as of right now) so, all you will get when breeding them is double hets for amel/clark albino. since matt has metioned about suntiger het amels, i am assuming that there was a trade worked out. i never saw where you paid 3k.

again, the fact is they may or may not be truly genetic morphs, the may or may not be compatible to at some point produce a "blizzard" retic. but until then, they are possible double hets and i have never heard or seen anywhere where they were referred to as anything but possible and unproven double hets.

 

[Serpent Syndicate]

Matt Martin

WOW!!!

I have seen these snakes in person, I have seen them after shedding. I can tell you that there is something going on with them. I have also seen the original father in person. These babies have the same pattern and color to some degree as the father. I can clearly pick out the normals from these darker patterned siblings. I know that the odds of hitting the dbl het visual form was very low based on the amount of eggs that hatched, however, I can tell you that with what did hatch, the odds of albinos, and the darker axanthic looking babies were right on target.

I had a buddy that took him 3 years to prove out his het albinos were truly hets. Just because we don't see a way different snake in this clutch may be because he didn't hit the odds this try. I will tell you that I would not give up on this project because there is more than meets the eye with these darker babies.

The person who made this post has definately jumped the gun and really needs to calm down and grow up a bit. Call any breeder and ask him if he hit the odds every time on his projects. I gurantee you that they will all tell you that sometimes it takes more than just one breeding to get the desired end result. This post is bogus and has been started by an immature child who had a fit cause he didn't get his way. Grow up, learn to be patient, and you might want to apologize before you dig yourself into a hole where no one will ever sell anything to you.

Brad Willoughby
Serpent Syndicate

 

[Angel Rojas]

I love how everyone keeps talking about unproven genetics......And what I find funny and quite strange is, if matt has not proven these genetics out yet, why is he already giving the babies a new name and calling them a new morph "Abyss"....... So they go from double het blizzard to possible double het blizzard to a new morph now named "Abyss".....so who's lying now...smh

 

[Angel Rojas]

I guess after he sells these to more unsuspecting people, they will all of a sudden be possible het Abyss right

 

[reticguy76]

people have given different, new, unproven, whatever you want to call it, potential genetics, names. names mean nothing. i mean somebody can start calling lavender phase albinos, wall keepers. giving names to genetics or potential genetics means nothing. there are names given to genetics all over the entire animal breeding world that arent yet "proven"