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Mike Fortier- Sand & Sun Reptiles- Need the Boards Opinion

Eric your post does nothing to help this situation.

I had valid points that should have been stated.

Eric and Mike F. the just because I am a kid response are not warranted.

Mike B. I took your advice that you gave as where to buy my rack and it was great advice.

I have not mentioned anything about you being a minor. This puts you in a very defensive posture and should not go that route.
 
If I missed this information while reading the thread, sorry in advance. Were the animals kept in heated enclosures after arrival?
 
Mike F. I hope you have placed the newly expired snake in the refridgerator. Let Mike B. have a necropsy done on it. I can't see any reason whatsoever to say he should not do so??!! Refusing this more than generous offer puts your actions and motives in doubt. I would say this if you were 115, or any younger age.

What struck me as odd was your saying that the animals MUST HAVE been parasite laden when shipped to you. This is a statement that requires some backup to it. That is why I feel that the necropsy is the only way to either vindicate you, or vindicate Mike B. It could be that there will be no clear-cut cause of death. But without any sort of idea of what is causing the deaths, it is hard to say.

Wes, you said:
Trust me on this if nothing else, you are at a crossroads with your future reptile career. The signs say good guy turn right, bad guy go straight ahead. I recommend taking the left. I hope you do.
Click to expand...

Um... you meant you wanted him to take the good guy route, yes?


Mike F. Some people have a hang up about age. As a teenager, you yourself have undoubtedly seen this many many times. It probably doesn't seem fair. But alas, that is indeed the way that the world IS. Young people keep popping up, and the older ones keep being condescending to them. There are valid and invalid reasons for these behaviours. YOU cannot change your age, you can only be in charge of your own actions. You also cannot change the perceptions of those who will always and only see your age. That is THEIR LIMIT... NOT YOURS. So please, realize that the important thing is to figure out what went wrong with the snakes so it doesn't happen again. If there is no discernible cause of death, then just move on. It's sad. It happens.
 
Sasheena said:
Wes, you said:


Um... you meant you wanted him to take the good guy route, yes?


.
Click to expand...

Oops. I guess I should just stick with milk hand and cookie hand. But some of you guys dunk with your left hand.

Right or left makes no difference right now. The road you're on is not a good one mike f.
 
I agree with Sasheena. A necropsy should be done to determine why these animals died. Mike F if there is something wrong in your place, wouldn't you want to know about it? Likewise, if there is something wrong with the animals Mike B sent, don't you think HE would want to know about it? Either way, three otherwise apparently healthy snakes are dead. Have the necropsy done to determine why, so if there is a problem IT CAN BE FIXED, regardless of which side of the transaction it is. THAT is the important part, don't you think? The welfare of the animals, over who is right and who is wrong? Just my 2 cents on the subject.
 
Mike F and Boaaddict, Put your little pointing fingers away now, let's really examine the facts...

In the 5 years that I have sold reptiles proffesionally I have never been one to lie, if you disagree please show me where I was at fault. Mike F. is an ammitted lier whom has not only lied to me once, but multiple times now. I don't see how I should believe Mike F. in one thing and not another. Mike F should not be allowed to pick and chose his lies, what is real and what is really real. Mike F is now saying he made mistakes as he was a 'excited kid' of course now meaning that he should not have fed the snakes withing 3 hours after the stress of shipping, meaning he should not have posted all those good things like they were 'nicely heated' when he meant they were cold. Or if he says they are perfect he means they are horrible. What should we all believe?!?!?!? Mike F your story changes everyday to fit your lies, if you don't like what you said, just pass it off as an 'excited kid' and change your story. I for one wish I had known in the begininnig that you were a lying, excited child and I would have never sold to you in the beginning. As for threatening me with the law, please do, on what grounds, that is as laughable as your lies.

As for Boaaddict I suppose Mike sent you the email of him 'threatening me' to bring this here. Well let's just post it for all to see now.... shall we....

QUOTED EMAIL I cut and pasted it but it is original and untouched...

Mike,
I think they were all sent with a parasite of some sort. The last remaining female looks like she may be within a day or 2 of death. I am not even sure if she will make it through the night tonight.
I don't know how we're going to handle this, but I am 100% positive that this isn't anything of my doing. I have experiance with corn snakes, I bred corn snakes, I successfully hatched babies, and I have cared for hatchlings before as well. They were all kept in stable enviroments, with fresh water provided.
I am not sure as to whether you have had prior knowledge to this problem, or not. I need you to respond very soon. I will have computer access only until about mid-day Saturday, and that will be it until Tuesday.
I think we should handle this privately, I don't want to take this to the BOI, but if necessary I will. I really dont want to make this into a messy ordeal, and I'd rather just get a refund for the snakes, and have this end where it is.
Mike Fortier.


Ok let's examine the sent email,,, Let's first add a little hind sight... I have never once giving Mike F a single bit of disrespect or anything unprofessional, I bent over backwards to help him, even after catching him in his fist blatant lie. Even after the first snake died I offered a refund with no proof!!! Just to make him happy even though it was odd it happened. If you don't consider it a threat that he wanted something done now or he woud take it to the BOI why even mention it?!?!? I did nothing to warrant that, I never said I would not work things out, maybe this is a case of 'excited kid' syndrome? And I suppose there are no accusations saying I may have had prior knowlegde that they had parasites, in my entire time dealing in reptiles I have never been so disrespected, especialy from someone I helped for MONTHS with info, pics, careguides, and countless time, no too mention after he had already lied once to me. And in the email, what about the fact he says he has all this knowlegde of corns, but the second they arrive he throws all that knowlegde out the window and doesn't even allow for one day or rest before shoving food down thier throats? I have giving Mike F the benifit of doubt and kindness too long, heck I even didn't title this thread Mike F lier.

Michael Beberman
 
Don't know if anyone else noticed this too but. In Mike Fs first post on 1-15-05 he states a necropsy should be done on the third dead snake.. Yet on 1-16-05 in his last post he says at the end, let me go check on the third snake, and 'yep, it's dead' !?!?!?! SO you have been nursing a dead snake for 24 hours???? Hmmmm anyone else notice he is skirting getting a free necropsy done.
 
Mike Fortier, animal killer

OK, now you have killed snakes.
You shouldnt even be allowed to have animals anymore.

Maybe the first one caught you off guard, but how much time has passed from the first death? Why were the other two not taken to a vet?
Is it because Mike B. had already offered up a refund on the first one, and you figured "Screw it, if he will pay for the first, I will just let the other two go as well"?
I am not putting words in your mouth, so don't go there."Why no necropsy?" is a damned good question, but why the hell not take them to a vet BEFORE a necropsy is needed? I think a vet visit would have shown something wrong in your husbandry that could have been fixed, but you would have been out one of the snakes at least, with no refund, plus the vet bills. Letting all three die and trying to weasle a refund is a lot cheaper huh?
 
I don't think the necropsy should only be viewed to clear up one side of the story.

Mike F should have it done since if there is a strange mutant virus in Mike B's stock, Mike B should know about it. Maybe if Mike F doesn't have such a defensive attitude he will be more than willing.

Also since originally before the shtuff hit the fan, Mike B offered a refund, to me that makes the initial dead snake Mike B's property and no longer Mike F's.

Mikey you know I like you, but holding back the corpses is just making you seem creepy.

And Mike, my offer last night still stands, she will be safer here ;) ;)
 
BIG MIKE vs wittle mikey

Since Mikey wants to throw himself a pity party and say that everyone is taking the big guys side, I would like to invite Mikey to do searches on reputations of the people coming to Mikes defense. These aren't people who jump on every little guy out there. These are people who know Mike B's reputation and are going to bat for a friend.
I could just as easily have taken Mikeys side, as I have known him longer than I have known Mike B. However, I know his past dealings, and the issues he had with them.
It is hard to choose the side of someone with no credibility even if they are a friend, although I doubt I will ever be getting IMs from Mikey again.
Age is not the factor, as up until now Mikey had many people fooled as to his age by acting very mature. Mike B didn't know his age at the time of sale(so he had him fooled), but that is irrelevant, because Mikey mentions that his mom did OK the deal.
Since she was ok with it, maybe she could come on here and post as well. That way, the offer of a necropsy could be made to her, and this can be done.
My offer stands, although I no longer have to pay for the necropsy, as it is free. If something is found that proves that the condition was preexisting, I will pay for the cost of the corns.
 
Sand&SunReptile said:
I'll start with the deal Davey brought up of buying from Cathy, from an AOL chat. She recieved her payment timely, and gave me a run around for 2 weeks about sending the snakes. I feel she was honest though, and truely did have a family crisis as the snakes were sent out after a period of about 2 weeks. They showed signs of parasites from day 1. They were excreting a white, very foul liquid from their anus. This happened multiple times the first day. The first death occured over the first night. The second female was taken to a vet, and the vet gave me a list of problems. Hemridging (sp?), pneaumonia, and an array of possible internal parasites. The vet clinic I took this girl to was the Boston Road Animal Hospital, on Boston Road, in Springfield Massachusetts. Maybe Seamus has any imput on this Vet Clinic, as he is has been in Mass, and lived here. I don't have the vet's name.
Click to expand...

Mike F, what was the time span between this problem with dying snakes and the snakes from Mike B?

Also, you took the above mentioned snakes to the vet but you didn't mention taking the snakes you received from Mike B to the vet. Were the snakes you received from Mike B taken to the vet?
 
Danni you little vixen you! She's all mine and staying right here!

Davey my friend, I appreciate your advocating for me and the offer to pay for one, a necropsy and two the snakes if something was truly wrong with them, again all is appreciated, but I will clean up my own backyard if need be it.

I think that if Seamus is still offering to be kind enough to pick these deceased animals up and get a necropsy done it is the only way to determine whats going on. I firmly believe that snakes with a sufficent parasite load to kill them within 48 hours wouldn't eat flawlessly after shipping, wouldn't be perfect looking as I stated, and Mike F. stated on numerous times.\

If the snakes truly are dead I am sorry, and it really is a sad thing as they were gorgeous animals. I pick up around 100+ babies every year from the same private breeder who takes maticulous care of here animals. I get charts with each animal including hatch dates, parental lineage, every shed date, every feed date, on EVERY snake, personal notes on attitude, and this person does this for even 25+ normals, every year for me. I purchase very few other corns to sell during the year as I have been a firm believer in this breeders practices and care. Why do I state this? Well, the breeder contacted me today after reading this thread to inform me that 2 clutch mates of the male I sold Mike F., and 3 clutch mates of the 2 females I sold Mike F. are still doing incredible and having no problems. I still have siblings here that have had no problems. The dealer and I both live in florida so temperature fluctuations are not as boldly present. I must also add though in all FAIRNESS that a customer who does live in the northern areas with temp fluctuations who bought a few of these corns had one instance. One did pass to what he thought were due to those formentioned temp fluctuations, I offered him a refund or some form of compensation and he declined, as he said it was not a problem on my end and was out of my control, the remaing snakes he has are doing well and he will not be paying shipping on his next order, even though i'm sure he will insist.

Michael Beberman
Mother Gecko Reptiles
 
i been wondering after reading Mike F's posts. In the one sick snake situtation you immediatly brought the second living snake to a vet. In this one you seemed to have let the other 2 die after the first one did. Not only that, but after the second one died, you still did'nt take the 3rd final one to a vet...... something just doesnt sound right.
 
Might I toss in a note of caution here, please?

This is NOT lil' petey at it again. This time I, and I speak only for myself but I have a big mouth, think we have a kid that had a lot of us fooled into thinking he was an adult acting like a kid.

I can hear the saws being sharpened and see the smoke from the nails being forged but I don't think it's crucifien' time, if you know what I mean.

mike f. what are you going to do about the necropsy?

Are you aware that even if it shows something was wrong with the snake, parasites, bacteria, whatever, that sooooo much time has passed that there is likely NO way to prove that it was present when your snakes arrived?

If you feel like we're picking on you, you probably deserve it and know it and just don't like the feeling. That's ok, it'll go away soon. Just do what you MUST know is right, you've been around long enough that you HAVE to know, and eventually you'll be fine.
 
Well, since Davey is so firm on believing I killed the animals, lets have Seamus come and get the snakes for a necropsy. While he's here, he can check out my other animals. Which are healthy, feeding snakes.
Yes, these animals were kept in a heated enviroment. A Natures Spirit/ Snake Shack 40watt back heat rack. If Seamus will come here to get them, then I have no problems.
Also, Mike B, my mom doesn't know a thing about reptiles. You seemed, atleast in our IM conversation, to want to talk to her rather me even though I informed you prior she knew nothing of reptiles. So, if you're planning on getting her to believe there is no way they died besides my own fault, well it's not going to happen.
I also failed to mention how all you did Mike B, in the IM was insult me. I tried to be level headed, and you continued telling me I know nothing, I don't know a thing about snakes, and all of this. It took me quite a long time to even get your opinion of why they may have died. Once I got your opinion, I tried discussing it with you, and you then proceeded to call me immature, and told me you would no longer talk to me. I do not understand that in the least bit.
I wasn't going to post anymore, but there is still too much unresolved here.
 
Mike F. In our Instant Messages I was speaking to you as I did when we were once friends, holding no punches, you never cried about it before. I spoke to you as a friend whom you have repeatedly lied to and disrespected, and yes i'm angry and dissapointed in you as I know many are now. If you feel I was hard on you it is because I pointed out your lies and your disrespect, if you wish to post the IMs between us please do. You are right about one thing though Mike F. there is a lot unresolved things here, like these unanswered questions..

Who is the major care giver of the snakes, you said your Mom knows nothing of reptiles, how often does she care for them for you?

Did the 3rd snake die on 1-15-05 when in your first post that it was dead and then on 1-16-05 you say, 'let me go check on it, yep it's dead' was that purely for shock value or have you been nursing a dead snake for 24 hours? or another lie that it was dead on the 15th not the 16th?

I asked only to speak to your mother as when I found out you were a minor I don't typically sell to minors. I just wanted to know if she knew what was going on here with her 15 year old son.

Mike had you been honest and shown me half the respect I have shown you, even after the first lie, this would not have come here.

I have spoken to Seamus once again and he has once again been kind enough to offer to collect the snakes and get them inspected. Mike F. please email him with your address and a few convienant times to pick them up. I would also like pics of the deceased snakes to verify they are the same ones I sent. If the necropsy proves that you recieved them from me with any sort of parasites I will be shocked and refund your purchase price and shipping with pleasure.


Michael Beberman
Mother Gecko Reptiles
 
Vet visit should've been #1 priority

after the first one died. I don't know anyone from either side but a couple things just don't sit right from this thread. The first one dying could've easily been chalked up to feeding wayyyyy to soon but the other 2 should've been taken to a vet for no other reason than to get a checkup to make sure they were ok. I've heard nothing but good things about the Mother Gecko folks so I'm sure if something was wrong with the other 2 and you took them to a vet for a checkup then Mike B. would've covered it.
I don't know of too many folks who would'nt ask for for necropsy for proof of the death being the breeders fault or the buyers fault. We're not dealing with Walmart. The biggest thing that bothered me was the " $75 shipped trio " remark. Mike B. said he discounted big for Mike F. but that should'nt matter. A $5 snake should be afforded the same care and vet visits as needed as a $5,000 animal.From what I've read it looks as if the $75 price tag caused the other 2 to just sit in their tubs until they died instead being seen by a vet. Thats really a shame. Reguardless of your age you should've taken the other 2 to a vet. Now that all 3 are dead why did it take so much effort to get a necropsy done? Thats just a part of buisiness in this hobby. Whether your 15 or 50 it looks to me like Mike F. dropped the ball all the way around and the animals died from owner irresponsibility.
 
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