Morph King Mojaves

[Griz]

Carved on Kenneth Lay's Tombstone no doubt!
It should not always be about economics, ethics should be important also. If MKR did what they did to hurt the value of one individuals collection with no regard for the impact on those who "can't", how can this be a good thing Griz?

Casey, with all due respect, as a business owner you should know better. You are in direct competition with MKR, Boaphile, Vision, Nerd and anyone else that is trying to make a buck in this industry. To think that your competition should have to maintain their prices so that you can take care of your overhead is absurd. Competition is about driving your competitors into the ground when need be. Setting their prices where they did had NOTHING to do with ethics (I have yet to hear a solid argument that even remotely approaches an ethical issue) but had EVERYTHING to do with economics.

Nobody here knows the exact reason why they did what they did other than they made money and that is, in business anyways, the bottom line. This is not a Ken Lay experience nor should the reader be assumed so ignorant as to fall for that line of logic.

When I had my Sunglow litter I had several individuals whine and complain about my prices. How dare I hurt the Sunglow market by setting my prices at $3000 each. How dare I hurt the end consumer. You know what? Not a single buyer of mine has emailed me complaining. As a matter of fact, they have all given glowing reviews. I am willing to bet money that MKR has significantly more satisfied customers then they do dissatisfied.

Finally, this is not about who MKR might or might not be friends with. I will judge who I do business with by more than simply price, certainly association has to be part of this, but to complain about THEIR prices for THEIR animals is pitiful.

Griz

 

[Griz]

What exactly are you saying here?

Are you telling me that because I disagree with MKR's ethics and motives I'm just "whining" because I can't do the same thing? That's a load of

Precisely.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Setting their prices where they did had NOTHING to do with ethics (I have yet to hear a solid argument that even remotely approaches an ethical issue) but had EVERYTHING to do with economics.

Nobody here knows the exact reason why they did what they did other than they made money and that is, in business anyways, the bottom line.

You seem to be contradcting yourself. You state the motive is money, then you state nobody knows why they did it. Maybe it is not quite so "black and white"
I am sure the answers will come in time.

 

[Chameleon Company]

After reading the first dozen posts or so, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry !! All this crying "foul", or ethics violations or some other such BS, when someone beats you in the competitive marketplace ........ well maybe you should just get the hell out of a capitalism ... get a government job or some such thing. Join a union. Too bad that easy money isn't looking so easy anymore

Whiners? Absolutely.

 

[Wilomn]

After reading the first dozen posts or so, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry !! All this crying "foul", or ethics violations or some other such BS, when someone beats you in the competitive marketplace ........ well maybe you should just get the hell out of a capitalism ... get a government job or some such thing. Join a union. Too bad that easy money isn't looking so easy anymore

Whiners? Absolutely.

They're picking up popscicle sticks in hell, we agree.

 

[DISCERN]

Could the whining be showing why some are in the ball python market to begin with? Is the love of the animal NOT the real reason here to buy ball pythons? When animals are looked at in terms of strictly investments, the main point is missed with the privelege of owning our awesome animals to begin with.

It is great to make money in a hobby you love, but people, if you are not having fun keeping animals in this hobby, the priorities need to be seriously looked at.

Billy Fraser

 

[ravensgait]

I wonder. I've heard it said (many times now) that they are trying to run so and so into the ground ETC ETC and now some claim they were partners or friends or what have you with some known low life's. So I have a question for those making these claims -- WHERE IS THE PROOF. As is often said in this forum anyone can say anything about someone else but the BOI needs to run on Proof so show some proof or shut the ##### up already.

Cathy you mentioned above""
And bpkid....good luck with your purchase. We'll see if you're feeling the same way when you see them selling whatever kind of Ball Python you buy from them for a quarter of the price you paid for it a couple of months after you buy it, lol. ""

You've said and others have said pretty much the same thing before. I have a question for you-- do you only own animals that you plan on turning a profit on? or do you have some just to have them?? So why shouldn't others have animals they just want to own? Kills me, Ben said this earlier IE that when the prices fall to where most anyone can own one people will make a killing.

Sorry you folks may not make all the money off your animals that you had planned on but hey might want to look into the mirror before talking about someone else being in this for the money. It's the thought of those dollar signs getting smaller and smaller that has most of you upset and your attacking these guys because of that...Randy

 

[Cat_72]

Precisely.

Well.....this comment has been bothering me all night. Proof, perhaps, that I am not all business.

If this is what kind of person you believe that I am Griz (and others), then you don't know me nearly as well as you think you do, and why your statement is completely wrong....which could be because:

1) I'm just not explaining myself clearly
2) You cannot, or choose not to, comprehend what I've said
3) You've jumped in, read a few posts, and decided to throw your opinion in without reading the whole thread (and the other currently active thread about MKR, dangit, I wish they could be merged somehow)
4) A combination of, or all of, the above

I do not wish to do as MKR is doing, and have no desire to ever do what MKR is doing. Not in the least. Why?

I would NEVER want to be churning out baby snakes like a snake factory. I choose to enjoy each and every one I have, and delight in each hatching, each egg laid, and give each snake individual attention. As I have stated before, they are pets first and foremost. Just because they also happen to be considered somewhat of an investment, does not mean I do not enjoy them for the wondrous creatures they are.

Sure, I'd like to make a big chunk of money somehow, but I don't feel the need to make it with "dirty business". I have a real job to pay the bills. I couldn't sleep at night knowing that I had hurt a whole lot of people just to make a quick buck and piss off someone else. I guess it's just that whole pesky "conscience" thing biting me again. Sure, it would be nice to make enough to pay off the year's feed bill and maybe have some extra left over for new additions, but it's not going to kill me if I don't.

And Randy, there is plenty of "proof" if you open your eyes and look around. I've seen enough on other forums, and MKR conversations with Pruett and cronies other places to see what kind of people they REALLY are. Sorry, anyone who would deal with scum like them can't be much better.

If they were selling their animals at those prices strictly because they wanted to make a quick buck, it would bother me enough, (though I have clearly stated that I agree they have every right to sell them for whatever they choose to), but when their alterior motives for doing it are something far more devious and underhanded......THAT is where I have a problem with it. So, no, I will not "shut the #### up", as you so eloquently requested, Randy.

Perhaps this was on the other MKR thread (I lose track) but someone stated that they would bet that everyone on here "whining" would buy from MKR if they knew no one would find out.....again, they are totally wrong. I would no longer even consider making a purchase from them. Some of us are just that way.....we are actually who we appear to be, we don't feel the need to portray ourselves differently in places like this to gain perceived acceptance or approval from our peers.

If you can't understand this......well, I can't explain it any more clearly.

 

[Griz]

Cat, I knew that comment would get under your skin and cause you to really reflect on the situation. That's why I said that one simple word. It's obvious from your postings that you reflect long and hard on situations which is something I commend. As I said in this same thread in the BP forum, I like you, always have.

Cat, as I have stated numerous times, this comes down to pricing. People can complain about associations, ulterior motives etc, but it's ultimately the pricing of the animals that is getting under people's skin.

Here are a few quick questions for you:

1) Maintaining an artificially high price is helpful for who?

A - Truthfully, nobody. However, the 10% of the reptile community who actually control the higher end animals would say themselves.

2) Pricing your animals where they become more affordable is detrimental to who?

A - Nobody. The people who bought high can easily produce larger quantities to offset the initial investment.

3) Pricing your animals where they become more affordable is helpful to who?

A - The 90% of the marketplace who could not afford them. The business who is doing the selling since they expanded their market by 900%.

4) Which COULD BE viewed as being unethical? Maintaining inflated prices through collaboration, collusion, intimidation so that a few can reap the profits from those who really cannot afford the animals to begin with? Or the individual who prices their animals in an affordable way so that they increase their sales (the #1 goal of any business) and so that more people can enjoy this hobby?

I reckon it all comes down to which side of the fence you sit on. But I assure you this, the viewpoint of the 90%, with regards to ethics, is much different then the 10% who control the animals.....

Griz

 

[doug-ferrin]

The basic questions still remain

The questions:

1. Are they selling snakes for any less than the snakes would have been selling for anyway? I am not yet convinced of this. The codominant morphs, produced in large numbers, would invariably go down in price.

2. Are they somehow mass producing snakes that would not have been produced in that quantity by other breeders? I seriously doubt that. Everybody with a male Mojave would breed him to as many normals as he would be willing to breed. MK bought a cartain number of Mojaves and tried to produce as many as they could. The MK Mojaves would have been purchased by others if not MK, and the purchasers would have tried tomaximize their production as well.

3. Are they selling inferior quality snakes? No one has come forward claiming this.

4. Do they give good customer support (at least equal to other breeders)? Apparently the answer to this question is yes.

So far the arguments against Morph King don't seem that strong.

Thank you,

Doug

 

[Casey Hulse]

It boils down to this......

Those that can, do, and those that can't whine.....

It really is just that simple.

Griz

A post like this is designed to silence dissenting opinions, if you think 90% agree with you I think you are wrong. Using insults like to bully people off of a thread is a common tactic I have seen people use for a long time.

 

[ravensgait]

Cathy I don't belong to or visit other Ball python forums and I'm sure many others who read this don't either. Besides that is somewhere else, not here where many of us like to see some proof . Gee I wonder if I looked through the BOI if I would find a post or two of you asking for proof? Randy

 

[Griz]

A post like this is designed to silence dissenting opinions, if you think 90% agree with you I think you are wrong. Using insults like to bully people off of a thread is a common tactic I have seen people use for a long time.

Casey, once again you appear to be on the wrong page. My comment was not intended to shut anyone up, as if I had that ability.....

You have done nothing but complain about this situation, dinged people with negative Karma, yet you have offered ZERO credible arguments backing you up. The only thing you have stated is that you don't think it's fair. Since when was business fair? Your a competitor Casey, if you don't like their sales tactics then do it better.

That is all I am asking for. Either back up your argument or stop the whining. It's not that difficult.

Griz

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Bottom line is that this is a discussion regarding capitalism in it's purest form. Supply and demand is the backbone of capitalism. the owners of MKR ponied up a lot of cash several years ago in order to be able to produce a large supply now. They have priced their animals at a point that allows them to meet the current demand. I will say that, in my opinion, they have done absolutely nothing wrong. They paid to play and they are now reaping the rewards......Capitalism......deal with it.

If you would like an example at the opposite end of the spectrum, look at the entire Mack Snow scenario a couple of years ago. Great lengths were gone to to ensure that the first couple of generations were placed in the hands of certain people in order to regulate the price for as long as possible. This was to ensure that those who ponied up for those animals would make a tidy profit on their investment. I will say that, in my opinion, nothing wrong was done there either. Again...capitalism.....deal with it.

MKR has no fiduciary duty to protect anyone else's investment in their animals. You rolled the dice when you bought those $10,000 or $15,000 or $20,000 Ball Pythons. No one spent that kind of money out of love of the animals. It was pure investment and you all know it. Well...sometimes investments pay off big and sometimes they don't.

Capitalism.....deal with it.

 

[Casey Hulse]

You have done nothing but complain about this situation, dinged people with negative Karma, yet you have offered ZERO credible arguments backing you up. The only thing you have stated is that you don't think it's fair. Since when was business fair? Your a competitor Casey, if you don't like their sales tactics then do it better.

With all due respect, what exactly have you contributed to this debate, you could copy and paste your respone over and over again, that would save you some typing. Not try to insult your inteligence, but when you toss insults out to all that oppose your views, then say "no insult intended", that is pretty lame. It seems that you are doing most of the whining, I am just offering opinions that you do not agree with.

 

[Cat_72]

You know what the problem is here...we seem to be looking at things from 2 somewhat opposite ends of the spectrum. I can see and understand points made by Griz and others, very good points.

However, those making those very good points also seem unable or unwilling to understand that we aren't looking at this purely to make money (no, I did not spend 10k on any snake), and we tend to give a damn about the people we affect with what we do, as well as loving our animals. I'll never have that "cut-throat" business attitude, I'll never be able to see the joy in pumping out animals just for the money, I could never associate myself with scum of the earth just for the almighty dollar. No one said that ANYONE had any sort of "duty" to protect anyone else's investment, what we are trying to say is that though there was nothing wrong with it from a "capitalist" aspect, that from the "human" point of view, it was a crappy thing to do. End of story. No "Boo, hoo, I'm not going to make 110K this year", no " No fair, he cheated me".....it was just a plain freaking crappy thing to do....especially considering their suspected motives. But hey, if that's what makes them happy......I just could never do it. Animals (or classic cars, or anything else you like and costs money for that matter) CAN be both something that simply brings you pleasure AND an investment. It doesn't have to be either/or.

There will never be an agreement of any sort about this at the end of the day.....I think to continue discussing this, for me at least, is pointless.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

You know what the problem is here...we seem to be looking at things from 2 somewhat opposite ends of the spectrum. I can see and understand points made by Griz and others, very good points.

However, those making those very good points also seem unable or unwilling to understand that we aren't looking at this purely to make money (no, I did not spend 10k on any snake), and we tend to give a damn about the people we affect with what we do, as well as loving our animals. I'll never have that "cut-throat" business attitude, I'll never be able to see the joy in pumping out animals just for the money, I could never associate myself with scum of the earth just for the almighty dollar. No one said that ANYONE had any sort of "duty" to protect anyone else's investment, what we are trying to say is that though there was nothing wrong with it from a "capitalist" aspect, that from the "human" point of view, it was a crappy thing to do. End of story. No "Boo, hoo, I'm not going to make 110K this year", no " No fair, he cheated me".....it was just a plain freaking crappy thing to do....especially considering their suspected motives. But hey, if that's what makes them happy......I just could never do it. Animals (or classic cars, or anything else you like and costs money for that matter) CAN be both something that simply brings you pleasure AND an investment. It doesn't have to be either/or.

There will never be an agreement of any sort about this at the end of the day.....I think to continue discussing this, for me at least, is pointless.

Good points all Cathy. However, you stated one thing that is the crux of your argument. This is not a business for you. It is for them. Now, do I at all believe that MKR did this, as someone else stated earlier, in order to make these animals available to everyone? Absolutely not. It was a business decision plain and simple. Any altruistic motives are pure crap in my opinion. But since they are a business....that is how the decision should have been made.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Good post Cat. Not all black and white to me, I see shades of gray.

 

[cka]

Excellent post Cathy...There are those who strictly keep ball pythons, nice normal regular ol' ball pythons for the sheer love of the animal itself, and those like MKR who stricly looked at it as another business venture solely for the purpose of generating cash (Not that I know them; I'm just guessing at their motive). It's the folks in between that get hurt most by this sudden shift in pricing. For them its a mix of love for the hobby AND generating some cash off an investment that for them is a lot of money. For someone who loves the animal enough to scrape up 3-4 thousand dollars for one breeder male, just to see the animals value plummet is a real kick in the @ss, and very discouraging. Plus breeding morphs is no cut and dried thing. Statisticly it could be years before your codom animals throws a morph. It happens all the time, there are no "set" percentages of morphs per clutch.

Everyone likes to live the dream that we're all one big community that takes care of each other, whether you're a 6 figure breeder or a small time enthusiast; this just shows that not to be the case, sad but true.

Capitalism is great, just a little painful.....

 

[Chameleon Company]

I wish it had stayed contained to two differing points of view ..

But with passages like this ......

..........we tend to give a damn about the people we affect with what we do, as well as loving our animals. I'll never have that "cut-throat" business attitude, I'll never be able to see the joy in pumping out animals just for the money, I could never associate myself with scum of the earth just for the almighty dollar.

What a bunch of self-righteous doggy-doo .......... it would seem that the original points made by the "capitalists" stand! Just this above quote implies if not overtly states that:

1) Such producers may not "give a damn to those they affect". Like everyone is supposed to be a winner ? Lets just double the prices in Wal-Mart, and to heck with the consumer that now can't afford things ! Higher prices are obviously indicative of a "kinder, gentler, more caring" seller .... "now the extra money please".

2) "Cut-throat" business practices. Call out the price-control folks again, we must need a new law !

3) "Scum in pursuit of the almighty dollar" ! Yeah, just those damn capitalists again.

So, if its just opposing views to a pricing strategy, amazing all the derogatory baggage we attach as inherent to the "other guys" position !

CKA, with regards to this

There are those who strictly keep ball pythons, nice normal regular ol' ball pythons for the sheer love of the animal itself, and those like MKR who stricly looked at it as another business venture solely for the purpose of generating cash (Not that I know them; I'm just guessing at their motive).

Amazing, but those that do it "for the sheer love of the animal" also are the ones complaining about the price drop, and then "guessing motives" so as to belittle MKR. Maybe you could "guess" that they took a huge monetary risk, love their animals, and now get to make a lot of money doing what they love !! Nah .......... doesn't fit the desired result.

We agree, though, that capitalism has its pains. This is one of them.